Stopping behind the line at a red light

[1995hoo]

I'm curious how universal this is.

At many lights here in Northern Virginia, if you don't stop behind the stop bar when it's red, you won't get a green unless someone else pulls up behind you or in an adjacent lane. In terms of right on red this makes perfect sense–why delay everyone else for a green cycle when the waiting car already went?

A lot of people are utterly unaware the lights are programmed that way and consequently they ignore the law saying to stop behind the line–for example, see the photo below (notice there's a crosswalk between this guy and where he should have stopped). He never got a green light; after I turned left (on an arrow) I looked in my mirror and saw him simply running the red, which made me assume he'd been there for at least one light cycle.

My question is, how common is that sort of programming around the rest of the country? (Mind you, I have no sympathy for someone who stops this way and gets stuck, since you're supposed to stop behind the line anyway.)

[kphoger]

I frequently see pavement cut marks for the detectors that are well past the stop bar, which irks me but whatever.  In my area, there are actually quite a large number of intersections that don't even have stop bars, so it's a moot point.

One time, I had some fun with a driver in Montgomery, Illinois.  I believe this was on IL-31 somewhere near US-30.  Anyway, the light turned red, but the car in front of me stopped so far in advance of the detector that I knew it was no longer being detected.  So I stopped well behind the detector.  We both sat there for a minute staring at a red light, then I idled forward and tripped the green light.

[hbelkins]

It's enough of a problem that I occasionally have to do press releases about the reason stop bars are placed where they are at signalized intersections. Frequently we'll get complaints that a signal isn't working, a technician will go out to check on the situation and discover that traffic is either pulling well past the stop bar, or stopping too far behind it.

[deathtopumpkins]

With left turns like that car in your picture, there is always the possibility that he slowly pulled forward while waiting for a gap in traffic, and got stuck there when the light changed. That's happened to me before.
Though since there's no one behind him logically he should have just rolled back if this were the case.

[cpzilliacus]

With left turns like that car in your picture, there is always the possibility that he slowly pulled forward while waiting for a gap in traffic, and got stuck there when the light changed. That's happened to me before.
Though since there's no one behind him logically he should have just rolled back if this were the case.

It happened to me just today. I pulled up to an intersection with  a green light, but the entire block ahead of me was filled with vehicles, so if I pulled into the intersection, I would be blocking it. 

I was partway into the crosswalk, not by choice, but because I realized I would not be able to make it across.  The light  went red before traffic ahead could clear (and at least once cab behind me was honking his horn at me, which I ignored).   I got a few dirty looks from the people in the crosswalk, but what could I do?

Blocking the  intersection is illegal in D.C., but it is almost never enforced by the D.C. municipal cops.

[empirestate]

One time, I had some fun with a driver in Montgomery, Illinois.  I believe this was on IL-31 somewhere near US-30.  Anyway, the light turned red, but the car in front of me stopped so far in advance of the detector that I knew it was no longer being detected.  So I stopped well behind the detector.  We both sat there for a minute staring at a red light, then I idled forward and tripped the green light.

I'm pretty sure I came upon that same situation once, to the point where it was necessary for me to parallel park between the car beyond the detector and the car behind it if any of us were ever going to get anywhere!

[PurdueBill]

There are several signals near me, especially for left-turn lanes, that frequently see people stopped beyond the line who don't trip the light.  The "stop here on red" signs evidently mean nothing to those people!

There are also a couple examples of left-turn lanes with doghouse signals with the loop set in the pavement such that it will only give a call for an arrow if there are 3 vehicles waiting.  The savvy drivers have caught on to those particular locations and know to stop over the loop to get the arrow even if there isn't anyone else queuing up to turn. 

As far as backing up if "caught" in the intersection as things clear, I have more than once been behind such a person who never looked and it was only thanks to quick reflexes on the horn that I was able to alert them that I was behind them.  In all of those cases, I was behind the stop line myself while they were well past it--they could have and should have gone well before the light turned yellow; they were of the type that wants a huge break to even think about making a permitted turn instead of going when a sufficient break opens up.

[M3019C LPS20]

Here in New Jersey, it is common to see at least two additional loops above the "STOP" line as well. This is true for both a left turn and thru lane. Although, in recent years, the state has converted many from loop detection to video detection. With video detection, you could easily adjust a zone digitally if necessary.

If a "STOP HERE ON RED SIGNAL" is present at an intersection, then it is most likely there for a reason. Although not everyone is a perfect driver.

What I find rather amusing is that some people told me that they sometimes flashed their high beam lamps at a camera at an intersection, so that they would receive a green indication as soon as possible. Merely a myth, like pushing a pedestrian push button a certain number of times to receive an instant "WALK" signal.

[realjd]

Here in Florida, we have the opposit problem. The crazy senile old folks will often stop so far before the stop line that they don't trigger the induction sensors. I make a point to drive around them and get in line in front of them.

[Brandon]

With left turns like that car in your picture, there is always the possibility that he slowly pulled forward while waiting for a gap in traffic, and got stuck there when the light changed. That's happened to me before.
Though since there's no one behind him logically he should have just rolled back if this were the case.

Then he should have finished his maneuver instead of sitting in the intersection.  If he was waiting for a gap, he should have pulled further up in the intersection, not half-assed it by sitting way back there.

[NE2]

Here in Florida, we have the opposit problem. The crazy senile old folks will often stop so far before the stop line that they don't trigger the induction sensors. I make a point to drive around them and get in line in front of them.

At one particular intersection I'll stop about a car length before the stop line because the only lights are overhead near-side. But I will be on the sensor.

[1995hoo]

Here in Florida, we have the opposit problem. The crazy senile old folks will often stop so far before the stop line that they don't trigger the induction sensors. I make a point to drive around them and get in line in front of them.

Around here the people I see stopping too far back are mostly people who leave too much space behind other cars, usually because the driver stopped as soon as possible so as to play with a mobile phone. I can think of a few times where I've changed lanes to cut in front of people doing that.

With left turns like that car in your picture, there is always the possibility that he slowly pulled forward while waiting for a gap in traffic, and got stuck there when the light changed. That's happened to me before.
Though since there's no one behind him logically he should have just rolled back if this were the case.

Funny thing is, I've never seen anyone back up. I think people are genuinely ignorant of why the light wouldn't turn. I rolled down my window once to tell someone she had to back up if she wanted a green and she acted astonished. Some people just think stop bars don't apply, though. (BTW, it's unlikely traffic was the issue at that particular light except sometimes during morning rush hour. Of course if you don't live around here you wouldn't know that and it'd be a logical guess.)

The other day I saw a guy waiting for a green at that light in a similar position to the car shown in the OP; he eventually gave up and turned right, I assume with the intent of making a U-turn at the next intersection.

[empirestate]

With left turns like that car in your picture, there is always the possibility that he slowly pulled forward while waiting for a gap in traffic, and got stuck there when the light changed. That's happened to me before.
Though since there's no one behind him logically he should have just rolled back if this were the case.

Then he should have finished his maneuver instead of sitting in the intersection.  If he was waiting for a gap, he should have pulled further up in the intersection, not half-assed it by sitting way back there.

Yes, I never understand why people who get stuck inside the intersection try to go backwards instead of forwards. I mean, you're in the intersection and the light's red, so you've already run the signal. It isn't any less legal to carry on and finish what you were planning, so why choose instead to back up into a space that doesn't exist for you?

[vdeane]

My family encountered an issue that was even worse.  Near our house, there's a signal for the ramp from I-590 to Elmwood Ave that is a little odd.  It's a no turn on red intersection, but almost all of the traffic turns right, so the signal is 100% actuated with doghouse that has a right turn arrow.  This is great when everyone drivers properly.  Not so great when someone tries to make a left turn from the right turn line, because the right turn lane only activates the arrow (obviously), and only the left turn lane activates the full green.  After waiting two light cycles for the idiot to stop trying to make a left at a light that would never turn green, my Dad had to physically get out of the car to force him to turn right.  We encountered the idiot again at the first light on Elmwood, where he was trying to make a left turn from the left straight lane, despite the existence of the turn lane to his left.  Thankfully there was another straight lane to the right, but the time it took us to slow down and go around him cost us the next light.  If I were a cop, I would have revoked his licence on the spot, and banned him from ever attempting to get it back.

[Big John]

Not sure if they still do this, but Wisconsin puts the detector for the left-turn lane 3 cars back on the major road of a semi-actuated signal, meaning if there is less than 3 vehicles in the lane the protected left turn phase is bypassed.  I had encountered a couple intersections like this where the oncoming traffic was too heavy to allow me to make the turn without the arrow.  So i then stopped well back of the stop line at those intersections in order to get the protected phase, even if i got weird looks doing that.

[1995hoo]

Regarding whether the buttons work, I can think of some intersections where pressing the button causes the light to turn almost immediately (the one that most readily comes to mind is the one at the corner of Alderman and McCormick Roads in Charlottesville on the University of Virginia Grounds; it's located near the first-year dorms, a mess hall, and the football stadium, so there's a lot of pedestrian traffic). I've encountered that sort of thing on bike trails a few times as well. In those circumstances, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't press the button.

I always like the psychological differences between driving and walking.  A driver has no problem (generally) sitting at a red light, waiting for it to turn green.  Some drivers will do this even though they can legally make a right on red.  But that same driver will disregard a walk/don't walk signal, because they don't feel like waiting less than a minute to cross.

I've heard people argue that drivers should shut up and wait as long as needed because "you're warm and comfortable in your car but I'm stuck out in the cold and rain." How is that the driver's problem? If everyone operated on that principle, you'd never be able to get anywhere. I might be more likely to give a pedestrian a break in rainy weather, but at the same time, I'm not going to sit through three light cycles where I have a green and would be able to turn.

[agentsteel53]

I always like the psychological differences between driving and walking.  A driver has no problem (generally) sitting at a red light, waiting for it to turn green.  Some drivers will do this even though they can legally make a right on red.  But that same driver will disregard a walk/don't walk signal, because they don't feel like waiting less than a minute to cross.

I jaywalk pretty regularly, while I only run reds with very well-thought-out reasons. 

not only do I think I can get better visual information as a pedestrian, because I am not surrounded by a mostly opaque cage - but I also feel like I am more maneuverable.  finally, as a pedestrian, I highly doubt my jaywalking will lead to the injury of others (someone swerves and hits a tree?), so I am willingly taking on the risk to myself.

[cpzilliacus]

not only do I think I can get better visual information as a pedestrian, because I am not surrounded by a mostly opaque cage - but I also feel like I am more maneuverable.  finally, as a pedestrian, I highly doubt my jaywalking will lead to the injury of others (someone swerves and hits a tree?), so I am willingly taking on the risk to myself.

In theory, in some places, jaywalking can lead to a summons or citation.

There was a passage in the excellent Dream City book by Tom Sherwood and Henry  Jaffe about the history of the District of Columbia from about 1950 to 1994.

Such a history  must spend a lot of time describing the life and times of former Mayor-for-Life Marion Shepilov Barry, Jr.  In Barry's early activist days in Washington, he would bait the (mostly white and frequently racist) D.C. municipal police force, which was only accountable to Congress, not D.C. residents and taxpayers (there were no elected D.C. officials back then).

One evening, he was out with some friends, and made a point of deliberately crossing the street against a red light (might have been a "DON'T WALK") in front of a Metropolitan Police Department patrol wagon. 

One of the cops in the wagon addressed Barry as "boy" and warned him that jaywalking could cost him $10 or $15 or $20. 

Barry's response to the cops "was f*** you and f*** the light too."

At that point, the cops were compelled to take action, which resulted in a brawl - Barry vs. the cops.  Barry's friends summoned help, as did the cops, and things quickly got very ugly, though Barry eventually ended up in handcuffs in the back of the wagon.

At the stationhouse, Barry was charged with  an assortment of crimes, including the jaywalking offense.

Even in recent years, I have seen the Metropolitan  Police issuing tickets to people for jaywalking.  It is definitely still illegal in D.C.

[NE2]

In theory, in some places, jaywalking can lead to a summons or citation.

No shit.

[deathtopumpkins]

With left turns like that car in your picture, there is always the possibility that he slowly pulled forward while waiting for a gap in traffic, and got stuck there when the light changed. That's happened to me before.
Though since there's no one behind him logically he should have just rolled back if this were the case.

Then he should have finished his maneuver instead of sitting in the intersection.  If he was waiting for a gap, he should have pulled further up in the intersection, not half-assed it by sitting way back there.

But he's not actually "in" the intersection, just in front of the stop line. The stop line is far back enough that he can be in front of it and not blocking any cross traffic. I know I would generally sit there and wait rather than just run the light, because it seems both less illegal and less dangerous to me.

[Mr_Northside]

I've dealt with some of the signal actuating issues of stopping after the line a couple of times.  Just backed up when I realized I had to.  I've also dealt with the vehicle ahead of me, but too far from the line.  After a trip through the cycle, and them not realizing it, I had to give them a little bit o' the horn.

Slightly a shift from the Original Post (but not the topic title), a fair amount of the "Stop Here on Red" lines here in Pittsburgh / surrounding area are placed where they are due to the geometry of the intersections.  There's one intersection here on the Northside where the line is pretty far back from the actual because larger vehicles turning on to the road (heading from the opposite direction) need the room to swing around.  (I wish I could have described that better.)

[NYhwyfan]

[/quote]

Loops are placed before the stop bar so you can activate detection to make the signal change. Where I live we also have additional or a second loop past the stop bar for just this type of instance (detection on either loop). However it is possible that there is a break in the loop wire or a faulty loop detector that may be causing the problem.

But I agree this car pulled too far out into the intersection and got "stuck"

[Brandon]

With left turns like that car in your picture, there is always the possibility that he slowly pulled forward while waiting for a gap in traffic, and got stuck there when the light changed. That's happened to me before.
Though since there's no one behind him logically he should have just rolled back if this were the case.

Then he should have finished his maneuver instead of sitting in the intersection.  If he was waiting for a gap, he should have pulled further up in the intersection, not half-assed it by sitting way back there.

But he's not actually "in" the intersection, just in front of the stop line. The stop line is far back enough that he can be in front of it and not blocking any cross traffic. I know I would generally sit there and wait rather than just run the light, because it seems both less illegal and less dangerous to me.

Actually, according to the vast majority of cops and engineers you ask, he is in the intersection (even red light cameras are set up this way).  Anything beyond the stop line is in the intersection.

[NE2]

INTERSECTION.–
(a) The area embraced within the prolongation or connection of the lateral curblines; or, if none, then the lateral boundary lines of the roadways of two highways which join one another at, or approximately at, right angles; or the area within which vehicles traveling upon different highways joining at any other angle may come in conflict.

Most states probably have a similar definition.

[theline]

Slightly a shift from the Original Post (but not the topic title), a fair amount of the "Stop Here on Red" lines here in Pittsburgh / surrounding area are placed where they are due to the geometry of the intersections.  There's one intersection here on the Northside where the line is pretty far back from the actual because larger vehicles turning on to the road (heading from the opposite direction) need the room to swing around.  (I wish I could have described that better.)

Here's a GSV that illustrates a stop bar that is far back from the crosswalk, due to street geometry: http://goo.gl/maps/p9I03

The view is south on Fellows St. at Ewing Ave. in South Bend. Cars often stop ahead of the bar, but the drivers are sorry if a city bus comes along. The route has the bus approaching from the left, making a right to go north on Fellows. The bus driver will pull across and force the car to back up. If there is a long line of cars after a Riley High School event, there can be a major jam. It's all avoided if drivers just pay attention to the stop bar.

A problem with stop bars that hasn't been mentioned is that they can become obscured by snow, not an uncommon occurrence in this area. If the driver hoping to make a left can find the stop bar, he may never activate the arrow. "Stop Here on Red" signs are rare here.

Farther up the thread (too far for me to bother to grab the quote) another poster mentioned the folks who believe the myth that they can trigger a signal to change by flashing their high beams. I'm sure that's not true now or in the recent past, but something makes me believe it had been true in the very distant past (installations from the 50s or 60s). As I recall, those signals would detect the presence of a vehicle in the left turn lane using a photo cell ("electric eye"). Flashing the high beams could, so the theory goes, trigger the signal sooner. One example I can think of from the early 70s was the intersection of US 20 and SR 2 near Rolling Prairie, IN. Anyone that can straighten me out on that gets a pat on the back.