US-22 & I-287 Construction in NJ

[_Simon]

Just went by here today and all the BGS's are greened out and there's a huge amount of ROW graded, and all sorts of temporary ramp with orange guide signs.  Any clue what's going on here?

[NJRoadfan]

Another fine "secret" NJDOT project, the Chimney Rock Rd. interchange. I call projects secret when, despite their scope, there is zero information or photos about the project on NJDOT's website (the US-206 bypass is another one). Thankfully Somerset County has posted information about the project online

Project Overview: http://www.co.somerset.nj.us/CMS/Service/NJSOMER/NJSOMER_68/NJSOMER_68_64074.pdf
Press Release: http://www.co.somerset.nj.us/CMS/Service/NJSOMER/NJSOMER_143/NJSOMER_143_64081.pdf
Proposed Interchange Plans: http://www.co.somerset.nj.us/CMS/Service/NJSOMER/NJSOMER_68/NJSOMER_68_64072.pdf

[roadman65]

Its about time!  For years, you used to be able to cross US 22 completely on Chimney Rock Road by way of U Turn ramps on either end. One of those ramps was then closed eventually and NB Chimney Rock Road had to head east to Thompson Avenue to make the moves and Southbound Chimney Rock Road although you have an imediate u turn a few hundred feet to the west, it is still better to drive straight across over the Michigan left type of thing.

I see by the plans that the NB I-287 ramp will feed in to the EB US 22 exit ramp to Chimney Rock Road and NB to EB will have to pass through that interchange ramps.  That is a good plan as now you can access Foothill Road from I-287 NB's exit to US 22 as of always you could not.  All you do is make a left at Chimney Rock and enter US 22 WB.  Also to go from US 22 EB to I-287 NB, where you must U turn at Thompson Avenue 1 mile east, you can do so through this interchange.

[_Simon]

Another fine "secret" NJDOT project

I fully support secret DOT projects:
1.  NIMBY reduction
2.  The magnificent feeling of driving down a road and having it surprisingly be fundamentally different then you've always ever known it.
3.  The less people know about a project, the less they can try to divert its funding to their own projects; giving rise to many projects that should exist but don't because their benefit is relatively minor.

[cpzilliacus]

Another fine "secret" NJDOT project

I fully support secret DOT projects:

I vigorously disagree.  As much as I dislike NIMBYs and their arguments against (most) highway projects, unless a project is 100% funded and will be owned by the private sector, secrecy is wrong.  Transparency should come first.  Even if a project is entirely funded by the private sector (rare in the United States), the environmental impacts (and environmental impact statement and related studies) need to be (and usually are) a matter of public record.

Project planning (even for relatively small projects) should be done in the open, because they are nearly always funded by public  dollars (often a combination of federal and state funding).   I consider public-sector toll agencies even though they frequently fund projects out of revenue bonds and tolls, to still be public for the purposes of this discussion.

1.  NIMBY reduction
2.  The magnificent feeling of driving down a road and having it surprisingly be fundamentally different then you've always ever known it.
3.  The less people know about a project, the less they can try to divert its funding to their own projects; giving rise to many projects that should exist but don't because their benefit is relatively minor.

I don't think it reduces NIMBYism at all.  What it does do is give the NIMBYs a very effective weapon to use against a project before elected officials, and probably in a lawsuit in federal court. 

As for diverting funding to other projects, that is (unfortunately) allowed by federal law (and state law in many states).

[_Simon]

I'd have to say that I agree with what you're saying for every sector of government except this.  It just feels right to have roads take priority above transparency, individual's rights, and even the local ecology.  You might call me crazy, but maybe I am.

The Robert Moses way would have been to just take the land with or without legal right to, blackmail everyone that opposed, and use the press against anyone that still stood in the way.  Roads are projects for the masses and no individual should have a right to stop the development of properly engineered highways for the masses.   Highways should just show up one day in obscure and magical ways;  The public wasn't meant to know what's in the works, and the environment should be forced to adapt.  I've always dreamed about being able to build roads with the ease of SimCity, and Moses achieved the closest thing possible with the breakneck rates at which roads showed up.  I can't work the math out in a way that makes it sound politically correct (or even sane), but somehow the fact the a ferry terminal can be demolished while the ferry is en route and it comes back to workers dismantling it to build approaches for the Triborough bridge (and is forced to dock elsewhere) somehow seems like the type of rapid highway construction we need these days.   It's certainly has never stopped being my dream job.   Which will have to remain a dream job because we've gone from the speed of development in the 60's (where roads were built so rapidly, the interchanges for not-yet-finalized highways were built, even if they wound up being abandoned), to projects where it takes 15-30 years just to add ramps to an existing interchange.  Instead of kicking people out of homes, we're waiting for them to move out, and instead of committing to a project and budgeting for reactive fallout (sedimentation in lake surprise), we pre-analyze every possible effect of a roadway to the point where nothing is built that even remotely inconveniences a single person.  Meanwhile it's acceptable for the environment for traffic on I-287 to take 2 hours to go 20 miles.

Anyway -- that's how I feel.  I know it's not a popular opinion but it's a personal extension of my favorite childhood activity of being able to draw roads into existence with a pen on a map.  I always kind of thought there was a single guy somewhere with the job of having that pen, and everyone built what he drew; and while I know know the "man with the pen" is really scores of  contracted companies working off of designs engineered by multiple people and approved by entire committees;  I still can't help feel that maybe things would fit together better if we still had one guy with one pen.

[NE2]

One of these days we'll hear about someone getting arrested in Brooklyn trying to bulldoze a house and say 'hey, that guy posted here'.

[_Simon]

One of these days we'll hear about someone getting arrested in Brooklyn trying to bulldoze a house and say 'hey, that guy posted here'.

I'm far too lazy to ever do any work like that;  but I do think that you may one day see a company with unlimited resources, like Google, taking a semi-automated and clever approach to end to end privatized road building, from the right of way acquisition to toll collection.  Imagine if tolls were run by Google Adsense and individual contributors to the highway (former landowners, crowd-sourced funders, etc) receive fractions of the toll, all precisely computed in real time.  Not only would there be embedded traffic sensors and dynamic ramp configurations, and things that look like they belong more in a pinball game than on a highway; but you'd be able to see the highway being built mile for mile in real time on google maps.  Lane markings that are LED based and algorithmically determined barrier positions, secondary ramp openings, and contraflow can be used in real time to get the most out of the roadway in response to traffic demands.  When a company has a vested interest in being able to get more commuters down the highway (more toll revenue), that's when I think you'll see highways start to be built rapidly again.

[NE2]

And that's when you'll start to see road builders go back to Robert Moses douchebaggery.

[cpzilliacus]

The Robert Moses way would have been to just take the land with or without legal right to, blackmail everyone that opposed, and use the press against anyone that still stood in the way.  Roads are projects for the masses and no individual should have a right to stop the development of properly engineered highways for the masses.   Highways should just show up one day in obscure and magical ways;  The public wasn't meant to know what's in the works, and the environment should be forced to adapt.  I've always dreamed about being able to build roads with the ease of SimCity, and Moses achieved the closest thing possible with the breakneck rates at which roads showed up.  I can't work the math out in a way that makes it sound politically correct (or even sane), but somehow the fact the a ferry terminal can be demolished while the ferry is en route and it comes back to workers dismantling it to build approaches for the Triborough bridge (and is forced to dock elsewhere) somehow seems like the type of rapid highway construction we need these days.   It's certainly has never stopped being my dream job.   Which will have to remain a dream job because we've gone from the speed of development in the 60's (where roads were built so rapidly, the interchanges for not-yet-finalized highways were built, even if they wound up being abandoned), to projects where it takes 15-30 years just to add ramps to an existing interchange.  Instead of kicking people out of homes, we're waiting for them to move out, and instead of committing to a project and budgeting for reactive fallout (sedimentation in lake surprise), we pre-analyze every possible effect of a roadway to the point where nothing is built that even remotely inconveniences a single person.  Meanwhile it's acceptable for the environment for traffic on I-287 to take 2 hours to go 20 miles.

Anyway -- that's how I feel.  I know it's not a popular opinion but it's a personal extension of my favorite childhood activity of being able to draw roads into existence with a pen on a map.  I always kind of thought there was a single guy somewhere with the job of having that pen, and everyone built what he drew; and while I know know the "man with the pen" is really scores of  contracted companies working off of designs engineered by multiple people and approved by entire committees;  I still can't help feel that maybe things would fit together better if we still had one guy with one pen.

It sounds like you are in favor of just having the private sector build, own and maintain the highway network.  Though even if highways were to be 100% private, most federal and state environmental laws would still apply, and I think it is safe to assume that all privately-owned roads would be toll roads. 

Regarding Moses, I think he was much more a positive impact on New York City and Long Island (including transit) than his detractors (including Caro) would care to admit.  Without the TBTA toll crossings that were constructed thanks to Moses, there would be no massive, predictable and simple flow of subsidy dollars from those crossings to the various money-losing NYMTA transit operations (starting with the New York City subway, but also including the MTA commuter rail lines and various bus services). 

[agentsteel53]

I'm reminded of the opening scene of the Grapes of Wrath.