710 - Long Beach Freeway Gap

[sparker]

The precedent/preference unwritten "rule" also explains why there has never been, despite several northern-tier/border plans in NY, Maine, and elsewhere, any attempt to propose or plan an "Interstate 100"; the number suggested for such proposals has inevitably been one of the two not yet commissioned (92,98) or a 2nd section of another 90-series even number.  Since that number never occurred within the U.S. highway lexicon -- and, technically, it is composed of 3 digits -- it's not likely to be utilized for any future concepts either.  And to cite an exception that proves the rule, the inverse has occurred with "101"; the longstanding presence of the West Coast-hugging US route (as the natural terminating extension of the E-W odd-number progression) has prompted a number of proposals to utilize that number as an Atlantic Coast-based proposed route; most notably (via the 1997 "Roads & Bridges" article proposing several Interstate corridors nationwide) along the Delmarva peninsula, using the DE 1 toll facility and the CBBT. 

[The Ghostbuster]

There may not be a rule against 4-digit Interstate Highways, but I stand by my comment. It may have just been my personal opinion, but I find it perfectly logical.

[sparker]

The most rational argument against 4-digit Interstates is the fact that except for I-5 in CA (and 705 has yet to be commissioned within that state!) and I-90 in NY, no other state has even come close to exhausting the 3-digit litany for any Interstate route within.  The argument essentially comes down to a heuristic debate over the aesthetics of a 4-digit shield or whether AASHTO and/or FHWA would consider a 4-digit designation.  This might deserve its own fictional thread, but is, IMO, an unnecessary divergence from other thread topics.   

[TheStranger]

The most rational argument against 4-digit Interstates is the fact that except for I-5 in CA (and 705 has yet to be commissioned within that state!) and I-90 in NY, no other state has even come close to exhausting the 3-digit litany for any Interstate route within.   

There's I-80 in California that has used up I-280 to I-980 (if we count the former I-480), but that's only because of the state's unwillingness to renumber 1934-present Route 180 (which fascinates me because in 1964, state routes 5, 15, and 8 all got renumbered right away - and 1934 Route 10 became Route 42 in the late 1950s as I-10 became the working number for the Santa Monica Freeway).

[sparker]

Figured that the missing 180 & 480 (the latter which, IMO, could be re-used outside SF itself) put I-80 in CA into the "not-quite-full-house" category, regardless of rationale for non-use.  However, I missed an obvious one:  I-95 in Maryland -- except for the non-existent I-995, all other auxiliaries are present and accounted for (including the hidden I-595). 

[The Ghostbuster]

Back to the 710 Long Beach Freeway Gap, as much as I'd personally like it to be built, I'm still not optimistic about its chances (too much opposition and NIMBYism, even though it will mostly be a tunnel).

[sparker]

Many of the homes in South Pasadena are older "California Bungalow" frame types, seated on minimal cinderblock foundations (my early childhood was spent in one of these) or, even more fragile, unreinforced adobe construction.  FWIH from a family friend who's a local there, many older residents are worried that vibrations from tunneling will damage their homes -- to the point of being uninhabitable.  Whether that is actually the case is a moot point; the perception of harm to both individual houses and the town's housing stock in the aggregate sense is pervasive in that community -- well past the point where any PR campaign can sway opinion.

[djsekani]

Oddly enough neither the pro- or anti-tunnel groups seem to have a reasonable solution to dealing with the freight traffic coming from the port of Long Beach. Passenger traffic can easily be distributed through mass transit (like a north-south light rail), but all the trucks will still be jamming the 60 east to the Inland Empire distribution centers or the East L.A. Interchange for points north.

[The Ghostbuster]

I can sum up their likely attitudes towards freight in four words: IT'S NOT MY PROBLEM!

[sparker]

If indeed the I-710 extension is ever completed as (variously) planned, commercial drivers planning on utilizing that route to gain access to westbound I-210 as an alternative to the ever-jammed I-5 corridor will have a rude awakening -- particularly semis hauling heavy containers -- when they get up to the La Crescenta area and encounter the heavy upgrade to surmount the Verdugo Mountains at La Tuna Canyon that begins right after the CA 2 interchange.  They'll be in the right lane in low gear (as existing truck traffic does today), eating fuel and adding several minutes to the trip (I've dodged truck traffic on 210 since it opened!).  Initially, it'll still be more efficient than I-5 -- but as more trucks utilize the route, the trip over the Verdugos will likely feature a consistently jammed right lane or two!  I'd give it 5 years after the I-710 completion until the routes virually equalize in terms of effectuality. 

[mrsman]

If indeed the I-710 extension is ever completed as (variously) planned, commercial drivers planning on utilizing that route to gain access to westbound I-210 as an alternative to the ever-jammed I-5 corridor will have a rude awakening -- particularly semis hauling heavy containers -- when they get up to the La Crescenta area and encounter the heavy upgrade to surmount the Verdugo Mountains at La Tuna Canyon that begins right after the CA 2 interchange.  They'll be in the right lane in low gear (as existing truck traffic does today), eating fuel and adding several minutes to the trip (I've dodged truck traffic on 210 since it opened!).  Initially, it'll still be more efficient than I-5 -- but as more trucks utilize the route, the trip over the Verdugos will likely feature a consistently jammed right lane or two!  I'd give it 5 years after the I-710 completion until the routes virually equalize in terms of effectuality.

I would think that the toll on I-710 would in some degree preserve I-210's time benefits.  Both roads will get busy but I-5 will always be worse.

[Plutonic Panda]

I have heard that the tunnel project will officially be killed off later this month or next month. It was just an Uber driver I've never met before who told me this, but I hope that he is wrong.

[The Ghostbuster]

After the decades-long controversy to extend the Long Beach Expressway to Interstate 210 in any shape or form, I'd be surprised if it isn't canceled.

[sparker]

As I-710 was never a chargeable Interstate facility, simply deleting it wouldn't result in complications like with the I-210/CA 57 corridor to the east; it would simply be a California issue. 

[Occidental Tourist]

After the decades-long controversy to extend the Long Beach Expressway to Interstate 210 in any shape or form, I'd be surprised if it isn't canceled.

Regardless of what happens, they need to get rid of Pasadena as a control city now.  They can always re-greenout the signs later to return Pasadena as a control city if the tunnel ever gets built.

[andy3175]

Perhaps it was related to the following article from earlier today?

http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20160916/pasadena-councilman-says-residents-should-demand-garcetti-brown-put-a-stake-in-710-freeway-tunnel

In an effort to fortify opposition to a 710 Freeway extension, Pasadena City Councilman Steve Madison hosted a forum Thursday night that laid out alternatives to building the 4.9-mile tunnel Caltrans has proposed to construct between the end of the freeway and the 210/134 Freeway interchange.

Madison's meeting also hinted at a stronger role to play for Pasadena City Hall, as well as west San Gabriel Valley residents.

One of the 200 attendees asked how Pasadenans can kill the tunnel project, which urban planning experts said won't ease local traffic between El Sereno, Alhambra, South Pasadena and Pasadena – roughly where the tunnel would go – and would waste money that could be spent on more practical solutions, such as a north-south boulevard, more bike lanes and widening other nearby north-south streets.

Madison hinted that the silence from major political players in the state may have to be broken. He said Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti and Gov. Jerry Brown "wield power"  over the 710 Freeway fight.

"There will come a time when we make a strong demand to them to put a stake through the heart of the tunnel,"  Madison said.

Caltrans estimates the dual-bore tunnel would cost $5.6 billion.

The 710 Coalition – a five-member group formed in 1982 that includes the cities of Alhambra, Monterey Park, Rosemead, San Gabriel and San Marino – sent a response to the forum, calling it "one-sided."

"Completion of the 710 is not about one city,"  the coalition said in its response. "It's about the entire Los Angeles region."

The coalition supports the tunnel and says it will reduce congestion and air pollution in local neighborhoods.

Moore said he believed Garcetti has yet to weigh in on the 710 project because he doesn't want to give those opposed to an extension a reason to vote against Measure M, the half-cent sales tax initiative on the Nov. 8 ballot that would add $120 billion for 38 transportation projects over the next 40 to 50 years.

The L.A. County Metropolitan Transportation Authority, Metro, has omitted the extension project from its ballot measure and has postponed any vote on the north 710 EIR until mid-2017.

Metro took an unprecedented step of including language in the measure saying, "No net revenues generated from the sales tax shall be expended on the State Route 710 North Gap Closure Project."

[silverback1065]

Perhaps it was related to the following article from earlier today?

http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20160916/pasadena-councilman-says-residents-should-demand-garcetti-brown-put-a-stake-in-710-freeway-tunnel

In an effort to fortify opposition to a 710 Freeway extension, Pasadena City Councilman Steve Madison hosted a forum Thursday night that laid out alternatives to building the 4.9-mile tunnel Caltrans has proposed to construct between the end of the freeway and the 210/134 Freeway interchange.

Madison's meeting also hinted at a stronger role to play for Pasadena City Hall, as well as west San Gabriel Valley residents.

One of the 200 attendees asked how Pasadenans can kill the tunnel project, which urban planning experts said won't ease local traffic between El Sereno, Alhambra, South Pasadena and Pasadena – roughly where the tunnel would go – and would waste money that could be spent on more practical solutions, such as a north-south boulevard, more bike lanes and widening other nearby north-south streets.

Madison hinted that the silence from major political players in the state may have to be broken. He said Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti and Gov. Jerry Brown "wield power"  over the 710 Freeway fight.

"There will come a time when we make a strong demand to them to put a stake through the heart of the tunnel,"  Madison said.

Caltrans estimates the dual-bore tunnel would cost $5.6 billion.

The 710 Coalition – a five-member group formed in 1982 that includes the cities of Alhambra, Monterey Park, Rosemead, San Gabriel and San Marino – sent a response to the forum, calling it "one-sided."

"Completion of the 710 is not about one city,"  the coalition said in its response. "It's about the entire Los Angeles region."

The coalition supports the tunnel and says it will reduce congestion and air pollution in local neighborhoods.

Moore said he believed Garcetti has yet to weigh in on the 710 project because he doesn't want to give those opposed to an extension a reason to vote against Measure M, the half-cent sales tax initiative on the Nov. 8 ballot that would add $120 billion for 38 transportation projects over the next 40 to 50 years.

The L.A. County Metropolitan Transportation Authority, Metro, has omitted the extension project from its ballot measure and has postponed any vote on the north 710 EIR until mid-2017.

Metro took an unprecedented step of including language in the measure saying, "No net revenues generated from the sales tax shall be expended on the State Route 710 North Gap Closure Project."

How do Urban planners know this won't help traffic?  Are they also traffic engineers?  Or are they people who just say "breas paradox" and drop the mic?

[The Ghostbuster]

It appears that urban planners seem to know what's best for us, even if we're too stupid to realize it. I've read that traffic engineers lost out to urban planners after the freeway revolts. Of course, I get most of my information from Randal O'Toole a.k.a. The Antiplanner. For more on what O'Toole has to say, check out this website: www.ti.org/antiplanner.

[DTComposer]

How do Urban planners know this won't help traffic?  Are they also traffic engineers?  Or are they people who just say "breas paradox" and drop the mic?

I'm not necessarily a supporter of Urban Planners, but if you read the quote fully:

One of the 200 attendees asked how Pasadenans can kill the tunnel project, which urban planning experts said won't ease local traffic between El Sereno, Alhambra, South Pasadena and Pasadena – roughly where the tunnel would go – and would waste money that could be spent on more practical solutions, such as a north-south boulevard, more bike lanes and widening other nearby north-south streets.

They're saying it won't ease LOCAL traffic, and nothing about what it will do about REGIONAL traffic. As someone who made several hundred trips between Long Beach and Pasadena/Glendale during my time there, I can tell you (anecdotally) they're right - I gave up on the surface streets in the area (Fremont, Fair Oaks, Atlantic, etc.) and went over to CA-2, CA-110 or Rosemead Boulevard. Closing the I-710 gap has, so far as I know, always been about REGIONAL traffic concerns.

It appears that urban planners seem to know what's best for us, even if we're too stupid to realize it. I've read that traffic engineers lost out to urban planners after the freeway revolts. Of course, I get most of my information from Randal O'Toole a.k.a. The Antiplanner. For more on what O'Toole has to say, check out this website: www.ti.org/antiplanner.

Meh - I've read his stuff (and went back now to read some more) and he's like 90% of the people who comment on 90% of the issues in this country - he's got his biased starting point and writes everything from there, and there's no room for considering that the answer probably lies somewhere in between his point and that of his opponents, since that would require compromise and cooperation - and those two words seem to be amazingly un-American these days. Not to say some of his points aren't extremely valid, but for me they get lost in the noise - the same with blogs from the opposite side like streetsblog.

[Bobby5280]

I laughed at the alternative suggestion of a north-south boulevard to connect the two segments of 710. Um, news flash: there is a bunch of houses and other properties in the way, which is kind of why a tunnel was suggested as a solution.

$5.6 billion (current cost) is a pretty crazy amount of money to spend on a 5 mile long tunnel. I'm guessing at least some of that funding would be federal money. There's a lot of other big, un-finished highway projects elsewhere in California and the rest of the nation that could be completed for quite a lot less money. It sure wouldn't cost $1 billion per mile to get I-40 completed to Bakersfield and Bowerbank (I-5) -and that one project would do more to help long distance regional traffic than spanning a freeway gap in Pasadena.

[compdude787]

It appears that urban planners seem to know what's best for us, even if we're too stupid to realize it. I've read that traffic engineers lost out to urban planners after the freeway revolts. Of course, I get most of my information from Randal O'Toole a.k.a. The Antiplanner. For more on what O'Toole has to say, check out this website: www.ti.org/antiplanner.

I honestly agree with much of what that guy is saying.

[bing101]

http://www.abc7.com/news/section-of-710-fwy-to-be-closed-for-nine-weekends/1521757/


Heres an Update for the Long Beach Freeway.

[The Ghostbuster]

Any updates on whether the tunnel proposal is alive, dead, or in suspended animation?

[andy3175]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-caltrans-freeway-homes-20161219-story.html

Transportation officials have begun the painstaking process of selling hundreds of houses acquired decades ago for a Los Angeles County freeway project that was never built. In the 1950s and 1960s, Caltrans began buying empty lots, houses and apartments along the planned route of the 710 Freeway extension between Pasadena and Alhambra.

But decades of litigation and legislation stalled the 6.2-mile project before construction could begin, leaving transportation officials as landlords for 460 structures. The properties, most of which are occupied, range from modest cottages in El Sereno to Craftsman mansions on stately streets in South Pasadena.

Caltrans officials mailed preliminary information Friday (12/16/16) to the tenants of the 42 properties that will be sold first, spokeswoman Lauren Wonder said. Tenants have three months to respond to the agency if they have any interest in buying their homes.

The sale process for the first 42 homes could take a year, Wonder said. The remaining 418 homes will not be sold for at least a year, depending on what option Caltrans eventually selects for the long-stalled 710 project.

Transportation officials ruled out all above-ground options in 2015, but are still considering a light-rail line, a bus rapid-transit system or a $5.6-billion set of double-decker freeway tunnels to link Alhambra and Pasadena.

The 710 is a favored route for truckers shuttling between the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach and distribution centers in the central county. Today, the route ends abruptly, dumping heavy truck traffic onto Valley Boulevard in Alhambra.

The project received $780 million from Measure R, the half-cent sales tax for transportation projects the county electorate approved in 2008.

[silverback1065]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-caltrans-freeway-homes-20161219-story.html

Transportation officials have begun the painstaking process of selling hundreds of houses acquired decades ago for a Los Angeles County freeway project that was never built. In the 1950s and 1960s, Caltrans began buying empty lots, houses and apartments along the planned route of the 710 Freeway extension between Pasadena and Alhambra.

But decades of litigation and legislation stalled the 6.2-mile project before construction could begin, leaving transportation officials as landlords for 460 structures. The properties, most of which are occupied, range from modest cottages in El Sereno to Craftsman mansions on stately streets in South Pasadena.

Caltrans officials mailed preliminary information Friday (12/16/16) to the tenants of the 42 properties that will be sold first, spokeswoman Lauren Wonder said. Tenants have three months to respond to the agency if they have any interest in buying their homes.

The sale process for the first 42 homes could take a year, Wonder said. The remaining 418 homes will not be sold for at least a year, depending on what option Caltrans eventually selects for the long-stalled 710 project.

Transportation officials ruled out all above-ground options in 2015, but are still considering a light-rail line, a bus rapid-transit system or a $5.6-billion set of double-decker freeway tunnels to link Alhambra and Pasadena.

The 710 is a favored route for truckers shuttling between the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach and distribution centers in the central county. Today, the route ends abruptly, dumping heavy truck traffic onto Valley Boulevard in Alhambra.

The project received $780 million from Measure R, the half-cent sales tax for transportation projects the county electorate approved in 2008.

maybe elon musk's "new" idea of boring tunnels can help this out.  I like how the media swoons every time he comes up with a "new" idea, but this one in particular is stupid, not because it's impossible, or a bad idea, but because it's literally not new.  Until you solve the cost of boring tunnels, it doesn't matter who brings it up, it will always be hard to do.