Shades of Green

[SignBridge]

Has anyone in New York State noticed that the newest BGS being erected by NYSDOT (at least on Long Island) are a slightly darker shade of green than previous signing was?

I first noticed it on Northern State Parkway where the last button-copy signs from the 1984 project are being replaced.

[dgolub]

Yes, the new signs also have the exit number tab aligned slightly differently.  It's all the way over to the right instead of being slightly to the left of the right edge of the sign as it was previously.  I don't think it's specific to New York, though.  The new signs that they started installing in Connecticut in late 2007 are also the same darker shade of green.  My best guess would be that there was some kind of study that found that it was easier to read either in the dark or by people with certain disabilities or something like that, but I don't know the reason for sure.

[SignBridge]

Right Dave, about the exit number tab too. I think it looks wrong all the way to the right, though the MUTCD does show it that way. It looked smarter mounted slightly to the left because of the rounded top-right corner of the main sign. The tabs now have a complete white border too, which I thought was not necessary 'cause the main sign border served both the tab and the main panel. Looks like the FHWA has outsmarted itself.

[Alps]

If you're going to cut out the rounded corners, then the exit tab should be inset to the edge of the corner. If the corners aren't cut out, the exit tab should be flush. Simple aesthetics.

[machias]

If you're going to cut out the rounded corners, then the exit tab should be inset to the edge of the corner. If the corners aren't cut out, the exit tab should be flush. Simple aesthetics.

The NYS supplement to the MUTCD calls for the exit tab to still be aligned with the inner edge of the rounded border of the main panel. It also still calls for the older "no bottom line" version of the exit tab, though as guidance, with a "should" instead of a "shall".  Apparently someone in Hauppauge isn't paying attention to the supplement.

When I was at the Photo Log Department in Albany years ago, I offhandedly mentioned that it was easier to read button copy against the darker green backgrounds back in the 70s vs the reflective sheeting of the time (around 2002 or so).  The guy that was sitting with me mentioned that they were going to go back to a darker green "in a few years".  It could have just been coincidence but maybe he knew something about a study somewhere.

I knew I could find this somewhere (from the New York supplement, Section 2E.31):

Guidance:
Exit number plaques should be designed in accordance with the MUTCD, but with square bottom corners and no bottom border. The text on the plaque should be centered vertically within the green area of the plaque face.

An exit number plaque should be positioned such that its right or left bottom edge is offset from the edge of the sign it supplements by a distance equal to the sign's corner radius.

[dgolub]

The NYS supplement to the MUTCD calls for the exit tab to still be aligned with the inner edge of the rounded border of the main panel. It also still calls for the older "no bottom line" version of the exit tab, though as guidance, with a "should" instead of a "shall".  Apparently someone in Hauppauge isn't paying attention to the supplement.

It's not just Hauppauge.  The new signs in New York City don't use the "no bottom line" exit tabs either.

[roadman]

Has anyone in New York State noticed that the newest BGS being erected by NYSDOT (at least on Long Island) are a slightly darker shade of green than previous signing was?

I first noticed it on Northern State Parkway where the last button-copy signs from the 1984 project are being replaced.

Has NYSDOT adopted high intensity prismatic (HIP) sheeting for new BGS installations.  That would explain the difference in color tint.

[vdeane]

Judging by the picture of the stop sign I got in google images when searching for that, yes.

[SignBridge]

Roadman; not sure if NYS has adopted the HIP sheeting for green signs, but the yellow exit only panels on the bottom of some newer signs apparently are, 'cause they appear to glow brightly even during the day.

[machias]

Roadman; not sure if NYS has adopted the HIP sheeting for green signs, but the yellow exit only panels on the bottom of some newer signs apparently are, 'cause they appear to glow brightly even during the day.

I think there's HIP in just about everything NYSDOT installs lately. One of the things that I've noticed is that some of the standard ground-mounted route markers have the HIP bands going horizontally and some going vertically. It makes me a little crazy when I see that on a multiple sign installation, though I probably shouldn't be looking that closely.

[roadman]

Roadman; not sure if NYS has adopted the HIP sheeting for green signs, but the yellow exit only panels on the bottom of some newer signs apparently are, 'cause they appear to glow brightly even during the day.

Which is the principal reasin that MassDOT still requires require high-intensity sheeting for any signs or banners that include black opaque legends or backgrounds.

[agentsteel53]

I thought HIP was universal now, by virtue of EG and honeycomb HI not being made anymore.  am I mistaken; are those two older styles still being made?

[roadman]

I thought HIP was universal now, by virtue of EG and honeycomb HI not being made anymore.  am I mistaken; are those two older styles still being made?

EG has been replaced with a prismatic version that's slightly brighter than original EG, but less intense than the HI.  Also, accoridng to my sources, "honeycomb" HI (ASTM Type III) hasn't officially been discontinued, but is pretty much a special order these days.

[agentsteel53]

EG has been replaced with a prismatic version that's slightly brighter than original EG, but less intense than the HI.  Also, accoridng to my sources, "honeycomb" HI (ASTM Type III) hasn't officially been discontinued, but is pretty much a special order these days.

good to know.  so there is a product out there called "Prismatic EG"?  does it look superficially like Prismatic HI?  in the sense that it has a diamond pattern and the recognizable parallel stripes?



the website from which I pulled that image is here:
http://www.tcpsigns.com/custom-signs-reflective-sheeting.html

and has the following paragraph:

In January 2008, a final ruling went into
effect regarding minimum reflectivity. With
the exception of the Parking series, Adopt A
Highway, Brown Informational or Blue
Informational series, ALL SIGNS including
Street Name I.D. Signs must be
manufactured with a minimum High Intensity
Prismatic Reflective sheeting. For more
information go to minimumreflectivity.org

the implication is that there is no "EG" anymore... are they mistaken?

[Alps]

I thought HIP was universal now, by virtue of EG and honeycomb HI not being made anymore.  am I mistaken; are those two older styles still being made?

EG has been replaced with a prismatic version that's slightly brighter than original EG, but less intense than the HI.  Also, accoridng to my sources, "honeycomb" HI (ASTM Type III) hasn't officially been discontinued, but is pretty much a special order these days.

Lesser types like III still have applications (delineators, for example).

[SignBridge]

This is getting confusing. Does everything have to be so friggin' complicated????!!!! Whatever NYSDOT is using now is a slightly darker green than what existed before. I liked the lighter reflective green better.

[machias]

This is getting confusing. Does everything have to be so friggin' complicated????!!!! Whatever NYSDOT is using now is a slightly darker green than what existed before. I liked the lighter reflective green better.

Personally I always found the early-mid 1970s darker green signs with button copy the easiest to read, especially in the daytime. The button copy letters contrasted better with the background due to the slight depth of the lettering.  Now everything is flat, regardless of the shade of green.

[SignBridge]

Yes Upstate, I agree with you. We must both be old-school sign buffs. I don't recall the green with button-copy being darker but it's possible. Unfortunately the last button-copy sign project on Long Island appears to have been the 1984 Northern State Pkwy. resigning that is now being replaced. I've liked those raised white/button-copy letters since I first saw them as a kid when the L.I. Expwy was being built.

[agentsteel53]

This is getting confusing. Does everything have to be so friggin' complicated????!!!!

you've never really shaken off the developmental disability given to you by the public education system - specifically, middle school - have you?

[SignBridge]

Huh? You're trying to confuse me aren't you? LOL

[SignBridge]

Well now, call me a little slow to figure things out; I just noticed something for the first time. These new overhead signs with the increased reflectivity don't have any lighting fixtures attached to them. Guess it's no longer needed. That must be why NYSDOT has been replacing these signs in such a hurry this year. So they could save big bucks by doing away with the lighting. Can't believe I didn't notice this earlier on.........

[machias]

Well now, call me a little slow to figure things out; I just noticed something for the first time. These new overhead signs with the increased reflectivity don't have any lighting fixtures attached to them. Guess it's no longer needed. That must be why NYSDOT has been replacing these signs in such a hurry this year. So they could save big bucks by doing away with the lighting. Can't believe I didn't notice this earlier on.........

There has been very little in the way of overhead sign lighting by NYSDOT over the years.  The only place that comes to mind immediately is I-87 southbound approaching I-90 and that is a backlit sign that's been there for 20 years or so. I don't remember any overhead signs having lighting, even back in the early 70s with dark green and button copy.

[SignBridge]

Many years ago, NYSDOT didn't light overhead signs on unlighted roads. However, on the L.I.E. and the state parkways on Long Island, the roads are lighted and the signs were too, at least since about 30 years ago.

[vdeane]

Must be a region 10 thing.

[SignBridge]

I think it has to do with the western part of Long Island being more urban in character than many other parts of New York State.