NJDOT screwing up cardinal directions

[storm2k]

NJ 440 is like that also.  Straight Line Diagram indicates N-S, but there might still be some East/West panels in the southern section in the Perth Amboy area.  The Hudson County section has always been North/South.

440 used to be E/W between the Turnpike and the OBX, which makes sense, because that section really is E/W. At some point, they decided that for continuity's sake they would make the whole thing N/S to keep consistent with both the Hudson County and SI parts of 440. Unfortunately, when both NJDOT and NJTPA issued out sign replacement contracts in the area of 129 (especially the southbound connector roadway between the Turnpike ramp and where 9 joins in) and the NJTP Exit 10 loop, they either didn't issue updated sign standards or they didn't enforce them as the contractors just duplicated the old incorrect signs on site and kept the E/W signs. Unfortunate, but we're likely stuck with it for another 20-30 years now.

[Pete from Boston]

NJ 440 is like that also.  Straight Line Diagram indicates N-S, but there might still be some East/West panels in the southern section in the Perth Amboy area.  The Hudson County section has always been North/South.

440 used to be E/W between the Turnpike and the OBX, which makes sense, because that section really is E/W. At some point, they decided that for continuity's sake they would make the whole thing N/S to keep consistent with both the Hudson County and SI parts of 440. Unfortunately, when both NJDOT and NJTPA issued out sign replacement contracts in the area of 129 (especially the southbound connector roadway between the Turnpike ramp and where 9 joins in) and the NJTP Exit 10 loop, they either didn't issue updated sign standards or they didn't enforce them as the contractors just duplicated the old incorrect signs on site and kept the E/W signs. Unfortunate, but we're likely stuck with it for another 20-30 years now.

What's the adjacent nominal direction of 287 – N-S or E-W?

[KEVIN_224]

It's signed N/S in New Jersey and with the New York Thruway concurrency. It's signed E/W along the Cross Westchester Expressway.

[Kacie Jane]

It's signed N/S in New Jersey and with the New York Thruway concurrency. It's signed E/W along the Cross Westchester Expressway.

No, it's signed E/W along the Thruway as well.  (Otherwise, traffic following 287 clockwise would have to follow signs North through NJ then South at Suffern.)

[Pete from Boston]

It's signed N/S in New Jersey and with the New York Thruway concurrency. It's signed E/W along the Cross Westchester Expressway.

No, it's signed E/W along the Thruway as well.  (Otherwise, traffic following 287 clockwise would have to follow signs North through NJ then South at Suffern.)

Right, I know most of those areas but was specifically curious about the actual east-west part at the point where it meets 440.  So southbound 287 traffic becomes northbound 440 at this point while actually traveling east -- are drivers informed there that their nominal direction has changed 180º? 

[storm2k]

Right, I know most of those areas but was specifically curious about the actual east-west part at the point where it meets 440.  So southbound 287 traffic becomes northbound 440 at this point while actually traveling east -- are drivers informed there that their nominal direction has changed 180º? 

Actually, not really. The signs just show 440/US 9/GSP (without a requisite to marker). I don't think it causes all that much confusion to be honest.

[roadman65]

I lived in nearby Fords for three years and no one gave that one a second thought.  Route 287 just became Route 440 (if some people were not calling 440 Route 287 already) and did not hear much complaints.  If anything on the level of complaints it was more about sprawl and traffic.

[KEVIN_224]

@ KACIE JANE: You are correct! I just checked my own travel notes from the last time I crossed the Tappan Zee Bridge (as a passenger, of course!). Silly me! 

[mrsman]

Right, I know most of those areas but was specifically curious about the actual east-west part at the point where it meets 440.  So southbound 287 traffic becomes northbound 440 at this point while actually traveling east -- are drivers informed there that their nominal direction has changed 180º? 

Actually, not really. The signs just show 440/US 9/GSP (without a requisite to marker). I don't think it causes all that much confusion to be honest.

This discussion really shows the importance of control cities.  You wouldn't care so much if you are going east or north, so long as you see a control city leading you towards Perth Amboy or Staten Island, you know that you're going in the right direction.

I just wish all the states [ahem California ahem] would take this point to heart.

[mrsman]

I would like to know why NJ 42 is signed N-S when it functions as an E-W corridor between the ACE and I-76?  This would never happen if I-76 was assigned to Atlantic City as it should, but it should really be to avoid that confusion being NJ settled on much less interstate mileage then they deserved.

Incidentally, NJ 73 is also signed N-S when in PA it is signed as PA 73 E-W.
One could be said again about NY-MA 43 where in NY its E-W while in MA its N-S.

If you take the whole corridor in question from Valley Forge down to Atlantic City it is a diagonal route.  It covers the same distance E-W as it does N-S. 

NJ 42 travels about 2.5 times more distance N-S than it does E-W when looking at the freeway part from Bellmawr to Turnersville.  And when you include the whole route to Williamstown it still covers twice as much distance N-S than it does E-W.

The ACE like the whole corridor is also a diagonal route.  It covers close to the same distance E-W as it does N-S.  But the E-W distance is slightly greater. 

NJ 73 covers 2.5 times more distance N-S than E-W.

PA 73 covers about 1.6 times more distance E-W than it does N-S.

PA raises the issue of states with a diagonal setup. In SEPA, state routes mostly follow NE-SW or NW-SE paths. Rather than try to determine whether a route is slightly more east or north, I think the better approach is to pick one trajectory and call it north. In PA's case, I'd pick the NE-SW as the "north-south", because those routes are following the Delaware River down there.  The NW-SE routes are heading away from the river into the state, so call them "east-west". By this same logic, you see NJ 23 and NJ 94 both as north-south routes, yet crossing at a 90-degree angle. 94 ought to be east-west, in keeping with 23, 15, and 208 all being north-south.

This also goes to Interstates. 81 and 85 are north-south, and 24 and 26 are east-west, because they're aligned to the "false north" of the Appalachians. I-74 actually isn't as terrible a number as you'd think if you trace it from the Quad Cities all the way east, in that light.

You see a lot of this "false north" in many grid systems that aren't fully aligned .  I always consider the numbered avenues in Manhattan as being north-south and Broadway as being a diagonal, but in actuality Broadway is nearly perfectly aligned with compass north.

[Alps]

Requested:

[roadman65]

The actual end of both Routes 440 and 287 are in the middle of the NJ Turnpike.  The zero mile posts for both roads is on the bridge crossing I-95 right in the middle of the NJT so NJ 440 crosses over the NB Turnpike and I-287 crosses over the SB Turnpike.

So NJDOT did it right for the changeover.

[hubcity]

The actual end of both Routes 440 and 287 are in the middle of the NJ Turnpike.  The zero mile posts for both roads is on the bridge crossing I-95 right in the middle of the NJT so NJ 440 crosses over the NB Turnpike and I-287 crosses over the SB Turnpike.

So NJDOT did it right for the changeover.

Right, and 287 North's concurrency with 95 South continues from there for a few miles. (I'll get my coat...)

[johnfowles]

NJ 440 is like that also.  Straight Line Diagram indicates N-S, but there might still be some East/West panels in the southern section in the Perth Amboy area.  The Hudson County section has always been North/South.

440 used to be E/W between the Turnpike and the OBX, which makes sense, because that section really is E/W. At some point, they decided that for continuity's sake they would make the whole thing N/S to keep consistent with both the Hudson County and SI parts of 440. Unfortunately, when both NJDOT and NJTPA issued out sign replacement contracts in the area of 129 (especially the southbound connector roadway between the Turnpike ramp and where 9 joins in) and the NJTP Exit 10 loop, they either didn't issue updated sign standards or they didn't enforce them as the contractors just duplicated the old incorrect signs on site and kept the E/W signs. Unfortunate, but we're likely stuck with it for another 20-30 years now.

What's the adjacent nominal direction of 287 – N-S or E-W?

I have joined this August (or Marching) forum because
I have been investigating the unique New Jersey/ wonder road NJ/NY Route 440
and have written an essay that is now on my own website at:-
http://johnfowles.org.uk/DUI_NJ_STYLE/

[Zeffy]

I have been investigating the unique New Jersey/ wonder road NJ/NY Route 440
and have written an essay that is now on my own website at:-
http://johnfowles.org.uk/DUI_NJ_STYLE/

Welcome to the forum from a fellow New Jersian. Interesting website, although I'm shocked you have no information on NJ 42, which is a major state highway in southern Jersey. Is there any validation process you went through in determining which routes to feature?

[johnfowles]

I have been investigating the unique New Jersey/ wonder road NJ/NY Route 440
and have written an essay that is now on my own website at:-
http://johnfowles.org.uk/DUI_NJ_STYLE/

Welcome to the forum from a fellow New Jersian. Interesting website, although I'm shocked you have no information on NJ 42, which is a major state highway in southern Jersey. Is there any validation process you went through in determining which
routes to feature?

Hi amazingly quick response sir
I am assuming that you meant my website or  just my NJ DUI page
I am a Brit who has been here only since 2000-- so am not fully familiar with all NJ roads
In fact to make my points I only wanted to include the more obvious N-S and W-E route that I was aware of  as being more or less parallel and which  caused me a newcomer much confusion I was aware that my listing would therefore of necessity exclude several other routes that were inclined and were more accurately NE-SW or NW-SE. As I submit is NJ42

[NE2]

[Alps]

I think this guy has been in the sauce since 2000...

[J Route Z]

Route 440 is very confusing. It is signed and travels north-south, but mostly runs east-west between I-287 and the Outerbridge Xing. Then there are signs mistakenly show 440 as an east west road. This is completely ridiculous. I feel bad for the out of state people trying to navigate the roads here.

[Alps]

Route 440 is very confusing. It is signed and travels north-south, but mostly runs east-west between I-287 and the Outerbridge Xing. Then there are signs mistakenly show 440 as an east west road. This is completely ridiculous. I feel bad for the out of state people trying to navigate the roads here.

History: Southern 440 was signed east-west (as it runs), northern 440 was signed north-south (as it runs). NJDOT then decided they wanted both 440s to be signed the same way, and chose north-south, matching NY. The only signs that should show east/west in Central Jersey are the old ones, and yes, those should have been patched at the time, but there should be very few left. Also, there are enough signs for the Outerbridge Crossing, Turnpike, I-287, etc. that I think the occasional East instead of North won't be too bad.

[storm2k]

Route 440 is very confusing. It is signed and travels north-south, but mostly runs east-west between I-287 and the Outerbridge Xing. Then there are signs mistakenly show 440 as an east west road. This is completely ridiculous. I feel bad for the out of state people trying to navigate the roads here.

History: Southern 440 was signed east-west (as it runs), northern 440 was signed north-south (as it runs). NJDOT then decided they wanted both 440s to be signed the same way, and chose north-south, matching NY. The only signs that should show east/west in Central Jersey are the old ones, and yes, those should have been patched at the time, but there should be very few left. Also, there are enough signs for the Outerbridge Crossing, Turnpike, I-287, etc. that I think the occasional East instead of North won't be too bad.

Sadly, due to poor oversight or plans that were never properly upgraded, several new signs in the Exit 10 loop and the Parkway Exit 129 roadway system were replaced and show the wrong directions.