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Author Topic: Ontario's Highways  (Read 417953 times)

noelbotevera

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #700 on: August 19, 2016, 11:08:41 PM »

Speaking of Highway 400, there seems to be some strange interchange designs on some exits. Here's exit 35. I know that Canada's Wonderland is right there, but wouldn't a simple diamond just work? Heck, even exit 33 has this design.

I'm thinking that these interchanges date to the opening way back in the 1950s and were later modified when Canada's Wonderland opened in the 1970s.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #701 on: August 19, 2016, 11:14:48 PM »

Speaking of Highway 400, there seems to be some strange interchange designs on some exits. Here's exit 35. I know that Canada's Wonderland is right there, but wouldn't a simple diamond just work? Heck, even exit 33 has this design.

I'm thinking that these interchanges date to the opening way back in the 1950s and were later modified when Canada's Wonderland opened in the 1970s.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but these look like Parclo A4's, which are very common in Ontario (let me know if you're referring to something else). The problem with diamond interchanges is that left turns lanes would be required on the arterials, which requires more lanes and a wider bridge, along with additional signal phasing.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #702 on: August 20, 2016, 12:13:36 AM »

wouldn't a simple diamond just work?

Tell that to the MTO. If you go to Ontario, you have to look pretty hard for a diamond interchange; they're just not built commonly. Some areas could get away with a diamond, but are built with Parclo instead.

I'm thinking that these interchanges date to the opening way back in the 1950s

Maybe, but maybe not (I'm too lazy to look it up). Parclo's are definitely not an old style. This one on ON 69 (future ON 400) just opened two weeks ago (still not on Google)  :banghead:

https://goo.gl/maps/1W2BhjRMz5C2

The Parclo A4 is Ontario's default and standard interchange. It is basically used unless there is a reason not to. Rumour has it that the MTO invented the A4 (as far as I know, this has not been proven). I would guess ~90% of Ontario's interchanges are Parclo A4 today, and it will stay that way (the brand new ON 407 extension uses... guess what... Parclo A4's through its length). Other parts of Canada use Diamonds in the same way the US does.

The US however, does use A4's as well (though not as commonly obviously). Here is a row of three Parclo A4's in California:
https://goo.gl/maps/wT9tq6iRvzr

I'm not bashing Parclo's; I think they're a safe and convenient style that gets the job done. But I do think they're overused/overkill sometimes.

EDIT: Here's a diamond in Ontario. It took me a few minutes to find a "classic" one:

https://goo.gl/maps/VY2nS7N913F2
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 12:17:39 AM by SignGeek101 »
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amroad17

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #703 on: August 20, 2016, 05:45:54 AM »

Even Kentucky has a few.  One is about two miles from where I live (I-275/KY 16 interchange, Exit 79).
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andrepoiy

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #704 on: August 20, 2016, 09:26:44 PM »

Highway 412 and Highway 407E was opened in 2016.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #705 on: August 20, 2016, 11:01:40 PM »

Highway 412 and Highway 407E was opened in 2016.

Some cool photos and videos have been posted on here, starting on page 20. It's definitely an exciting project, and I'm glad I got to drive it a month ago. Now the 407 is finally a true bypass of Toronto. Before it ended in the middle of nowhere, so my family always used the 404 to get between the two, but the 412 is much nicer.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #706 on: August 20, 2016, 11:09:23 PM »

Highway 412 and Highway 407E was opened in 2016.

Some cool photos and videos have been posted on here, starting on page 20. It's definitely an exciting project, and I'm glad I got to drive it a month ago. Now the 407 is finally a true bypass of Toronto. Before it ended in the middle of nowhere, so my family always used the 404 to get between the two, but the 412 is much nicer.

Sadly though, my parents never use the 407...
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #707 on: August 20, 2016, 11:29:30 PM »

Highway 412 and Highway 407E was opened in 2016.

Some cool photos and videos have been posted on here, starting on page 20. It's definitely an exciting project, and I'm glad I got to drive it a month ago. Now the 407 is finally a true bypass of Toronto. Before it ended in the middle of nowhere, so my family always used the 404 to get between the two, but the 412 is much nicer.

Sadly though, my parents never use the 407...

It is a ridiculously overpriced highway. It's hard not to be jealous of the US's toll roads, which generally have much cheaper toll rates.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #708 on: August 20, 2016, 11:56:08 PM »

Highway 412 and Highway 407E was opened in 2016.

Some cool photos and videos have been posted on here, starting on page 20. It's definitely an exciting project, and I'm glad I got to drive it a month ago. Now the 407 is finally a true bypass of Toronto. Before it ended in the middle of nowhere, so my family always used the 404 to get between the two, but the 412 is much nicer.

Sadly though, my parents never use the 407...

It is a ridiculously overpriced highway.

Hence more incentive to drive it now while it's free!

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #709 on: August 21, 2016, 01:00:50 PM »

Highway 412 and Highway 407E was opened in 2016.

Some cool photos and videos have been posted on here, starting on page 20. It's definitely an exciting project, and I'm glad I got to drive it a month ago. Now the 407 is finally a true bypass of Toronto. Before it ended in the middle of nowhere, so my family always used the 404 to get between the two, but the 412 is much nicer.

Sadly though, my parents never use the 407...

It is a ridiculously overpriced highway.

Hence more incentive to drive it now while it's free!

I wish, but I never go that far east..
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amroad17

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #710 on: August 22, 2016, 02:54:02 AM »

Speaking of Highway 400, there seems to be some strange interchange designs on some exits. Here's exit 35. I know that Canada's Wonderland is right there, but wouldn't a simple diamond just work? Heck, even exit 33 has this design.

I'm thinking that these interchanges date to the opening way back in the 1950s and were later modified when Canada's Wonderland opened in the 1970s.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but these look like Parclo A4's, which are very common in Ontario (let me know if you're referring to something else). The problem with diamond interchanges is that left turns lanes would be required on the arterials, which requires more lanes and a wider bridge, along with additional signal phasing.
Isn't that considered a parclo A6 because of the six ramps?  The one on Hwy 400 is like the one near my house I mentioned seven posts back.  I believe A4's only have four ramps.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #711 on: August 22, 2016, 07:07:06 AM »

Speaking of Highway 400, there seems to be some strange interchange designs on some exits. Here's exit 35. I know that Canada's Wonderland is right there, but wouldn't a simple diamond just work? Heck, even exit 33 has this design.

I'm thinking that these interchanges date to the opening way back in the 1950s and were later modified when Canada's Wonderland opened in the 1970s.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but these look like Parclo A4's, which are very common in Ontario (let me know if you're referring to something else). The problem with diamond interchanges is that left turns lanes would be required on the arterials, which requires more lanes and a wider bridge, along with additional signal phasing.
Isn't that considered a parclo A6 because of the six ramps?  The one on Hwy 400 is like the one near my house I mentioned seven posts back.  I believe A4's only have four ramps.

Good question. The Wikipedia section on the naming of parclos explains how the number is not related to the number of ramps:

Quote
identified by a letter/number suffix after the name. Other jurisdictions do not have naming conventions, so Ontario's naming conventions are used in this article. The letter A designates that two ramps meet the freeway before the driver crosses the arterial road, while B designates that two ramps meet the freeway past the crossing.

The number designates how many quadrants of the interchange contain ramps. In left-hand drive countries, the ramps function the same as in right-hand drive countries, but ramps with the same designation appear visually reversed. Common parclo configurations include the Parclo A2, Parclo B2 and Parclo A4.

There's also a diagram of an A4 from the article which shows the six ramps:

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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #712 on: August 22, 2016, 11:58:45 AM »

I just noticed this substandard interchange on the 400 at Canal Road. I'm surprised it's even open! There's no acceleration or deceleration lanes.
I can understand their complaints, but this interchange is so unsafe, when people are going 120-130 on the 400. And it's not like Hwy 9 or (in the future) Line 5 are that far away.

Quick answers to the questions in question:
- The interchange has that design because back in the 40s-50s they didn't know yet just how bad of an idea that was
- The auxiliary lane is there indeed to facilitate the RIRO movement, accelerating traffic has more space than usual to get up to speed
- Operating speed is 110-114 km/h, not quite the 120-130 mentioned earlier
- No channelization as there isn't the space for it
- Safety-wise the interchange actually does better than its conventiaonlly-designed neighbours. My speculation is that because it's so visibly terrible that people take extra caution
- The safety issues are Canal Rd itself, which admittedly aren't as bad as they were before the work over the last decade increased the space between the road and canal; removing the interchange reduces traffic on the roads

It is a ridiculously overpriced highway. It's hard not to be jealous of the US's toll roads, which generally have much cheaper toll rates.

The 407ETR is priced at the most attractive price it can be placed at before service breaks down. If it were cheaper, it would be an awful, congested road.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #713 on: August 22, 2016, 12:42:10 PM »

- No channelization as there isn't the space for it

How so? What are the MTO's standards for channelization islands? Most jurisdictions that I can think of could fit a pork chop island in there, no problem.
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #714 on: August 22, 2016, 02:46:10 PM »

- No channelization as there isn't the space for it

How so? What are the MTO's standards for channelization islands? Most jurisdictions that I can think of could fit a pork chop island in there, no problem.

That's not a place for a channelization island, that's a freeway entrance so a full on ramp would be required.

Unless there's an issue with wrong-way movements at that location (and there isn't), then there's no need to put in an island there. In fact, the island itself would be more likely to cause an issue (hazard in the clear zone, maintenance issues with snow removal and/or piling on the island) than solve anything. So as an interim solution, this old design isn't doing badly, so don't mess with it. Long-term solution is to replace it completely.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #715 on: August 22, 2016, 03:31:03 PM »

- No channelization as there isn't the space for it

How so? What are the MTO's standards for channelization islands? Most jurisdictions that I can think of could fit a pork chop island in there, no problem.

That's not a place for a channelization island, that's a freeway entrance so a full on ramp would be required.

Unless there's an issue with wrong-way movements at that location (and there isn't), then there's no need to put in an island there. In fact, the island itself would be more likely to cause an issue (hazard in the clear zone, maintenance issues with snow removal and/or piling on the island) than solve anything. So as an interim solution, this old design isn't doing badly, so don't mess with it. Long-term solution is to replace it completely.

I see. Any in case, the BC solution would be to channelise the exit and entrance ramps, such that you can't merge into anything more than the acceleration lane, and that you can't continue straight from the deceleration lane. Chevron markings and a raised island provide the channelisation necessary.

I'm guessing that the MTO doesn't consider BC's solution feasible? The example below (which I posted on the last page) is from the Sea to Sky Highway, which is more of an expressway, granted. But it feels more like a freeway than the Canal Road ramps. In the interim, I think it would be smart for the MTO to install small raised islands between the deceleration and acceleration lanes, until the interchange can be replaced entirely. At least to make things feel more natural. At the very least, paint some guidance lines and remove the stop sign. Why force traffic to stop when there's an acceleration lane?


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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #716 on: August 22, 2016, 05:01:34 PM »

I see. Any in case, the BC solution would be to channelise the exit and entrance ramps, such that you can't merge into anything more than the acceleration lane, and that you can't continue straight from the deceleration lane. Chevron markings and a raised island provide the channelisation necessary.

Well, that sort of thing has been done before, such as in a whole pile of locations just to the north of there on Highway 11. But that's a road with a lower design speed and lower classification. And with

I'm guessing that the MTO doesn't consider BC's solution feasible? The example below (which I posted on the last page) is from the Sea to Sky Highway, which is more of an expressway, granted. But it feels more like a freeway than the Canal Road ramps. In the interim, I think it would be smart for the MTO to install small raised islands between the deceleration and acceleration lanes, until the interchange can be replaced entirely. At least to make things feel more natural. At the very least, paint some guidance lines and remove the stop sign. Why force traffic to stop when there's an acceleration lane?

Oh, that type of solution is feasible, but Ontario stopped designing interchanges like that about the same time they stopped building ones like Canal Road (seriously, a loop to pull a 180 degree turn within 20 m?).  :banghead:

In terms of interim solutions, sure you could channelize the throat of the intersection, but what problem will that hope to solve? In the last five years, the number of collisions that have occurred at the ramp terminals that might, MIGHT, be prevented by that solution is 1. A single collision. The number of collisions resulting from wrong way movements is a big fat zero. So you could spend money here to fix something that is a terrible design, but functions spectacularly well. Or you could spend money practically anywhere else in the province and definitely achieve a better cost/benefit ratio.

It's a terrible design. It really gives no room for error, it serves a lousy side road, and its spacing will not accommodate the planned widening of the highway. It needs to go, but since there's no demonstrated safety issue there then there's zero sense spending money on it until you absolutely need to do so.
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #717 on: August 22, 2016, 10:49:14 PM »

Some recent photos of the 417 extension west of Arnprior, Ontario:


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/417_dv_185_west_Aug16_24x16.jpg
Campbell Drive doesn't really go to Braeside, but nevertheless, the business district is signed via Campbell Drive.


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/417_dv_186_west_Aug16_24x16.jpg
Westbound advanced signage for the Campbell Drive interchange.  The remnants of the old lane configuration from when the four lane highway ended at this location are still visible on the pavement.


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/417_dv_187_west_Aug16_24x16.jpg
Signage at the westbound off-ramp to Campbell Drive.  Campbell Drive is Exit # 187.


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/417_cl_187_east_C_Aug16_24x16.jpg
Centralized view from the Campbell Drive overpass, looking easterly.


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/417_cl_187_east_WB_Aug16_24x16.jpg
Easterly view overtop of the westbound lanes.  The westbound lanes are effectively complete.


Campbell Drive has a four lane cross-section overtop of the 417




The control cities for the 417 are Ottawa and North Bay respectively.


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/417_cl_187_west_WB_Aug16_24x16.jpg
Westerly view over the westbound lanes from Campbell Drive


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/417_cl_187_west_EB_Aug16_24x16.jpg
Westerly view over the eastbound lanes.  By the looks of things, the eastbound lanes have been resurfaced using recycled asphalt.  Typically a leveling course followed by a surface wearing course would be applied to complete the highway.


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/417_dv_188_west_Aug16_24x16.jpg
Distance signage for the destinations that Highway 417 one day hopes to go to.


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/417_dv_189_west_Aug16_24x16.jpg
The right lane ends.


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/417_dv_189-5_west_Aug16_24x16.jpg
Westerly view overtop of the Scheel Drive underpass.  The left shoulder has extra space then typical.  I'm guessing it was built that way to facilitate construction staging for the next extension of the 417 towards Renfrew (whenever that happens).


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/417_dv_189-75_west_Aug16_24x16.jpg
A short stub was graded beyond the Scheel Drive underpass to facilitate a future extension of the four lane highway.


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/17_CentreLineRumbleStrip_Aug16_24x16.jpg
Continuing west on conventional Hwy 17.  Much of the next 2000km of highway look striking similar to this.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 10:51:22 PM by AsphaltPlanet »
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #718 on: August 22, 2016, 11:54:10 PM »

What a welcome surprise! I didn't think that road was going to be opened until the fall. Now, all someone needs to do is fix Google, which has it horribly done and incorrect.

Too bad there's no more funding for more extensions west. But hey, you can't do everything at the same time. Perhaps this will be done further once the ON 69 (and maybe ON 11/17) cools off a bit.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #719 on: August 23, 2016, 04:07:13 PM »

^ While the westbound lanes are pretty much complete, a lot of work remains in order to finish the eastbound lanes of the highway.  The eastbound structure for Scheel Drive isn't anywhere near completed, and the temporary road that the eastbound lanes are currently utilizing will need to be blasted and removed before Scheel Drive can be re-opened.  So it's indeed nice that the construction has advanced as far as it has, make no mistake, it will still be the end of 2016 before construction has been fully completed.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #720 on: August 23, 2016, 11:40:40 PM »

I'm guessing that the MTO doesn't consider BC's solution feasible? The example below (which I posted on the last page) is from the Sea to Sky Highway, which is more of an expressway, granted. But it feels more like a freeway than the Canal Road ramps. In the interim, I think it would be smart for the MTO to install small raised islands between the deceleration and acceleration lanes, until the interchange can be replaced entirely. At least to make things feel more natural. At the very least, paint some guidance lines and remove the stop sign. Why force traffic to stop when there's an acceleration lane?

Oh, that type of solution is feasible, but Ontario stopped designing interchanges like that about the same time they stopped building ones like Canal Road (seriously, a loop to pull a 180 degree turn within 20 m?).  :banghead:

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #721 on: August 24, 2016, 08:16:27 AM »

^ Really?



You realize the Sea-to-Sky Highway is posted at 60km/h through this interchange right?

http://goo.gl/dEOHHx
http://goo.gl/poqNc1

You aren't similarly proposing to lower the speed limit on the 400 to 60 as well are you?
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #722 on: August 24, 2016, 09:22:07 AM »

^ Really?

http://i.imgur.com/l4SrMdo.png

You realize the Sea-to-Sky Highway is posted at 60km/h through this interchange right?

http://goo.gl/dEOHHx
http://goo.gl/poqNc1

You aren't similarly proposing to lower the speed limit on the 400 to 60 as well are you?

A) cbeach was making a province vs province joke, so I jokingly told him to jog on.
B) the Sea to Sky has similar design standards even in the 100 km/h sections
C) my point was to highlight how you could similarly treat the dead area between the deceleration and acceleration lanes at the Canal Road interchange.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #723 on: August 24, 2016, 05:31:23 PM »

Speaking of Highway 400, there seems to be some strange interchange designs on some exits. Here's exit 35. I know that Canada's Wonderland is right there, but wouldn't a simple diamond just work? Heck, even exit 33 has this design.

I'm thinking that these interchanges date to the opening way back in the 1950s and were later modified when Canada's Wonderland opened in the 1970s.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but these look like Parclo A4's, which are very common in Ontario (let me know if you're referring to something else). The problem with diamond interchanges is that left turns lanes would be required on the arterials, which requires more lanes and a wider bridge, along with additional signal phasing.
Isn't that considered a parclo A6 because of the six ramps?  The one on Hwy 400 is like the one near my house I mentioned seven posts back.  I believe A4's only have four ramps.

Good question. The Wikipedia section on the naming of parclos explains how the number is not related to the number of ramps:

Quote
identified by a letter/number suffix after the name. Other jurisdictions do not have naming conventions, so Ontario's naming conventions are used in this article. The letter A designates that two ramps meet the freeway before the driver crosses the arterial road, while B designates that two ramps meet the freeway past the crossing.

The number designates how many quadrants of the interchange contain ramps. In left-hand drive countries, the ramps function the same as in right-hand drive countries, but ramps with the same designation appear visually reversed. Common parclo configurations include the Parclo A2, Parclo B2 and Parclo A4.

There's also a diagram of an A4 from the article which shows the six ramps:


I thought the numbering involved the number of ramps, not the number of quadrants.  Should have researched it more.  So, there is an A4 near my house.
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noelbotevera

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #724 on: August 25, 2016, 03:38:27 PM »

Some more strange things I've thought about is Highway 7's downloading and why 407 was tolled.

For one, was Highway 7 congested through Markham and Vaughan and thus needed a freeway bypass?

During construction of Highway 407, was it supposed to be tolled as a P3 and thus Cintra managed the tolls?

Was the government in debt at the time and thus needed the toll money?

It's really strange that Highway 407 isn't free and is priced very high. Highway 402 had also replaced Highway 7 and that never got tolled.
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