I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange

[J N Winkler]

I thought about posting something along the lines of "I wonder if they use bubble shields in District 7."

District 7 did used to exist and included Harrisburg and the surrounding area.  I don't know when it was reorganized out of existence, but I have a 1940's Pennsylvania traffic manual with a district map that shows it.

[Beltway]

District 7 did used to exist and included Harrisburg and the surrounding area.  I don't know when it was reorganized out of existence, but I have a 1940's Pennsylvania traffic manual with a district map that shows it.

What counties did it have?

[J N Winkler]

It was headquartered at 4th and Market Streets in Harrisburg and the counties covered were Dauphin, Juniata, Lancaster, Lebanon, Mifflin, and Perry.  (Source is Pennsylvania Department of Highways, Manual of regulations for official traffic signs and signals, n.d. but probably 1937.)

[MNHighwayMan]

It won't be long before someone says, "Hey!  Where is District 7?"

I hadn't even noticed until you pointed it out. Should just renumber District 12 to District 7 and bam, problem solved: 11 districts numbered 1 through 11.

Edit: Also kind of reminds me of how MnDOT doesn't have a District 5–it's the Metro District instead.

[Beltway]

It was headquartered at 4th and Market Streets in Harrisburg and the counties covered were Dauphin, Juniata, Lancaster, Lebanon, Mifflin, and Perry.  (Source is Pennsylvania Department of Highways, Manual of regulations for official traffic signs and signals, n.d. but probably 1937.)

So District 8 had only Adams, Cumberland, York and Franklin?

[roadman65]

I am so happy now to see Trenton acknowledged along I-95 at former Exit 46A.  For years the old US 1 at the previous exit was signed for Trenton to follow up on control city guides from Philly that read "Trenton."  However, in the early 90's
when PennDOT modernized the signs and changed the new freeway to US 1 on signs (as even after the freeway was completed still had Business US 1 signed as mainline US 1 and nothing for the freeway) Trenton was signed as primary control for I-95 all the way into NJ.  Morrisville made an appearance since then and has remained.

Also "Yardley" was a control city for I-95 from Pendell (as Trenton was directed via US 1 at the time) to the last PA exit before the river.  I am not sure how the bridge was signed from the last exit ramps northward ( I think it was New Jersey, but am not sure) but "Trenton" was originally not used from US 1 Business (then mainline) like it has been.

[J N Winkler]

So District 8 had only Adams, Cumberland, York and Franklin?

Yes.  District structure was noticeably different in 1937, although the two largest cities were in the same districts (District 6 for Philadelphia and District 11 for Pittsburgh) that they are now.  Not all of the differences relate to former District 7.  Going district by district, comparing 1937 to this map:



District 1--no change

District 2--gained Juniata and Mifflin from defunct District 7

District 3--gained Bradford from District 4

District 4--lost Bradford to District 3

District 5--no change

District 6--no change (but Philadelphia not listed in 1937; did PDH have jurisdiction anywhere there?)

District 7--dissolved; Juniata and Mifflin to District 2, Dauphin, Lancaster, Lebanon, and Perry to District 8

District 8--gained Dauphin, Lancaster, Lebanon, and Perry from defunct District 7

District 9--gained Somerset from District 12

District 10--no change

District 11--lost Westmoreland to District 12

District 12--lost Somerset to District 9, gained Westmoreland from District 11

PennDOT house lore has it that District 7 was abolished because 7 was considered unlucky in the early days of the PDH, which is also given as the reason PennDOT does not have 7XXX four-digit route designations.  (I don't think this explanation is necessarily reliable and suspect it may be anachronistic in connection with four-digit routes, given that the transition from LRs to SRs did not begin until after 1980.)

As an aside, PennDOT house nomenclature is to refer to districts as unitary entities with the district number followed by an hyphen and a zero, e.g. "District 12-0" instead of just "District 12."  There are occasional instances of the district number and hyphen being followed by something other than zero, e.g. "District 12-1," "District 12-2," etc. but I don't know if these relate to counties, subdistricts that may or may not be coterminous with counties, or some other type of subdivision.  In any case, back in the halcyon days when PennDOT actually allowed public access to its FTP server, the districts had their own folders and the folder names were just "district" (or abbreviation) plus the district number with or without zero fill (e.g., "district3," "dist03," "district03").  PennDOT has an awful lot of official gingerbread--for example, it may be the only state DOT where plan sheets for freeway construction include the name of the governor who declared the road a freeway and the date he signed the freeway order--and it is sometimes difficult to tell how seriously agency employees take it.

[briantroutman]

As an aside, PennDOT house nomenclature is to refer to districts as unitary entities with the district number followed by an hyphen and a zero, e.g. "District 12-0" instead of just "District 12."  There are occasional instances of the district number and hyphen being followed by something other than zero, e.g. "District 12-1," "District 12-2," etc. but I don't know if these relate to counties, subdistricts that may or may not be coterminous with counties, or some other type of subdivision.

Someone with more PennDOT knowledge can chime in if I'm wrong, but from my observations, "X-0" is reserved for the district engineering office, which is effectively the headquarters for the entire district–and therefore "District X-0" becomes basically synonymous with "District X".

The other subordinate numbers (like X-1, X-2) are used for maintenance offices in each of the counties of District X. For example, District 5, which is headquartered in Allentown, has a Maintenance District 5-1 office in Temple (Berks), 5-2 in Leighton (Carbon), 5-3 in Allentown (Lehigh), 5-4 in Stroudsburg (Monroe), 5-5 in Easton (Northampton), and 5-6 in Schuylkill Haven (Schuylkill).

[akotchi]

Getting back to some more photos of the ongoing changes . . .

Found in my travels on Friday (6/8/18):

Not sure this should have been exposed yet . . . it is on the Turnpike WB -- the signing at the proposed Turnpike/I-95 SB split is in the background.  Noteworthy about this placement and a few other covered tenth-mile reference markers is that it appears that a second set milemarkers will grace the east-west Pennsylvania Turnpike -- somewhat unusual for toll road facilities in the Northeast, which seem to carry one set of mileposts for each continuous roadway (see Ohio, New Jersey, Indiana), regardless of the different route designations it carries over its length.  I assume that PTC will still maintain those last three miles when it becomes I-95, since it operates the bridge toll westbound and would maintain the shared ownership of the bridge with NJTA . . .

Also noteworthy is the following, temporary but unusual, situation, where two milemarkers for the same route in the same direction at the same mile in the same state are on two different roadways.  Left is on the Turnpike (on the back of the sign in the photo above); right is on the soon-to-be-former I-95 section.  Photos taken 6/9/18.

 

[Beltway]

PennDOT house lore has it that District 7 was abolished because 7 was considered unlucky in the early days of the PDH, which is also given as the reason PennDOT does not have 7XXX four-digit route designations. 

Thanks for all the detailed info (snipped)!  Regarding the above, I worked for PennDOT for several years in the 1970s, in District 6-0 which is the district office near Philadelphia, and in all the many discussions about the agency I heard I am trying to recollect whether the subject of District 7 was ever mentioned, let alone whether there was any "PennDOT lore" about it. 

The ASHE presentation points don't really logically associate with each other.  One said it was the central office, another said District 7 originally was omitted in a clerical error, another said that the number 7 was "unlucky" (which I have never heard about that number; in Biblical works it is considered to be blessed).

Based on what you said about the 1937 map, there was an engineering district of 6 counties that was District 7.

As an aside, PennDOT house nomenclature is to refer to districts as unitary entities with the district number followed by an hyphen and a zero, e.g. "District 12-0" instead of just "District 12."  There are occasional instances of the district number and hyphen being followed by something other than zero, e.g. "District 12-1," "District 12-2," etc. but I don't know if these relate to counties, subdistricts that may or may not be coterminous with counties, or some other type of subdivision. 

To answer another poster's question, District 12-0 would refer to the district office, and District 12-1 and District 12-2 would refer to county PennDOT maintenance bases, one per county.

[qguy]

As an aside, PennDOT house nomenclature is to refer to districts as unitary entities with the district number followed by an hyphen and a zero, e.g. "District 12-0" instead of just "District 12."  There are occasional instances of the district number and hyphen being followed by something other than zero, e.g. "District 12-1," "District 12-2," etc. but I don't know if these relate to counties, subdistricts that may or may not be coterminous with counties, or some other type of subdivision.

Someone with more PennDOT knowledge can chime in if I'm wrong, but from my observations, "X-0" is reserved for the district engineering office, which is effectively the headquarters for the entire district—and therefore "District X-0" becomes basically synonymous with "District X".

The other subordinate numbers (like X-1, X-2) are used for maintenance offices in each of the counties of District X. For example, District 5, which is headquartered in Allentown, has a Maintenance District 5-1 office in Temple (Berks), 5-2 in Leighton (Carbon), 5-3 in Allentown (Lehigh), 5-4 in Stroudsburg (Monroe), 5-5 in Easton (Northampton), and 5-6 in Schuylkill Haven (Schuylkill).

I was the District Quality Coordinator in District 6-0 for ten years (hence the appellation "qguy"). What everyone is saying about the district nomenclature within PennDOT is generally true. A few additional observations:

While the formal name for a district is "District X-0,"  in conversational parlance a district is referred to as simply "District X." So for example the southeasternmost district would virtually always be written as "District 6-0" and usually spoken in casual conversation as "District 6."

The units ending in "-0" (what most people think of when they use the word "district" in relation to PennDOT) are technically called "engineering districts." The units ending in "-1," "-2," etc., are technically called "maintenance districts" (as in "Maintenance District 6-1"), although they are often informally referred to as "county maintenance organizations."

The hyphen is never verbalized. So for example District 6-0 is pronounced "six oh," Maintenance District 6-1 is pronounced "six one," etc.

[Beltway]

I was the District Quality Coordinator in District 6-0 for ten years (hence the appellation "qguy"). What everyone is saying about the district nomenclature within PennDOT is generally true. A few additional observations:
While the formal name for a district is "District X-0,"  in conversational parlance a district is referred to as simply "District X." So for example the southeasternmost district would virtually always be written as "District 6-0" and usually spoken in casual conversation as "District 6."
The units ending in "-0" (what most people think of when they use the word "district" in relation to PennDOT) are technically called "engineering districts." The units ending in "-1," "-2," etc., are technically called "maintenance districts" (as in "Maintenance District 6-1"), although they are often informally referred to as "county maintenance organizations."
The hyphen is never verbalized. So for example District 6-0 is pronounced "six oh," Maintenance District 6-1 is pronounced "six one," etc.

District 6 has Maintenance Districts 6-1 thru 6-5, but I forget the respective county assignments (Philadelphia, Delaware, Chester, Montgomery, Bucks).

[Roadwarriors79]

Getting back to some more photos of the ongoing changes . . .

Found in my travels on Friday (6/8/18):

Not sure this should have been exposed yet . . . it is on the Turnpike WB -- the signing at the proposed Turnpike/I-95 SB split is in the background.  Noteworthy about this placement and a few other covered tenth-mile reference markers is that it appears that a second set milemarkers will grace the east-west Pennsylvania Turnpike -- somewhat unusual for toll road facilities in the Northeast, which seem to carry one set of mileposts for each continuous roadway (see Ohio, New Jersey, Indiana), regardless of the different route designations it carries over its length.  I assume that PTC will still maintain those last three miles when it becomes I-95, since it operates the bridge toll westbound and would maintain the shared ownership of the bridge with NJTA . . .

Also noteworthy is the following, temporary but unusual, situation, where two milemarkers for the same route in the same direction at the same mile in the same state are on two different roadways.  Left is on the Turnpike (on the back of the sign in the photo above); right is on the soon-to-be-former I-95 section.  Photos taken 6/9/18.

 

Interesting to see any new mile markers on the east end of the Turnpike. I was checking out the I-95 Link site, and based on that schedule, there wouldn't be much in terms of sign changes until just before the official opening in the summer or fall. The site also leaves me the impression that the NJTA won't adjust any of their signs until just before the official opening.

http://i95link.com/schedule/

[theroadwayone]

Just to let those interested know, July 30 is the five-year anniversary of groundbreaking on the project. Wait till we get the before and after shots of the interchange area; it'll be fun.

[cl94]

Also noteworthy is the following, temporary but unusual, situation, where two milemarkers for the same route in the same direction at the same mile in the same state are on two different roadways.

Actually relatively common in some places, such as Arkansas and Massachusetts, where numbers are reused in multiple places. I can personally confirm that MA 7A (two separate roadways) has two posted MM 1s. Arkansas's segments are all mileposted individually.

[NJRoadfan]

Five years eh? What did the NJ Turnpike Authority get done during the same amount of time? (hint: more then an interchange and some signing)

[ixnay]

PennDOT house lore has it that District 7 was abolished because 7 was considered unlucky in the early days of the PDH, which is also given as the reason PennDOT does not have 7XXX four-digit route designations. 

Thanks for all the detailed info (snipped)!  Regarding the above, I worked for PennDOT for several years in the 1970s, in District 6-0 which is the district office near Philadelphia, and in all the many discussions about the agency I heard I am trying to recollect whether the subject of District 7 was ever mentioned, let alone whether there was any "PennDOT lore" about it. 

The ASHE presentation points don't really logically associate with each other.  One said it was the central office, another said District 7 originally was omitted in a clerical error, another said that the number 7 was "unlucky" (which I have never heard about that number; in Biblical works it is considered to be blessed).

Based on what you said about the 1937 map, there was an engineering district of 6 counties that was District 7.

As an aside, PennDOT house nomenclature is to refer to districts as unitary entities with the district number followed by an hyphen and a zero, e.g. "District 12-0" instead of just "District 12."  There are occasional instances of the district number and hyphen being followed by something other than zero, e.g. "District 12-1," "District 12-2," etc. but I don't know if these relate to counties, subdistricts that may or may not be coterminous with counties, or some other type of subdivision. 

To answer another poster's question, District 12-0 would refer to the district office, and District 12-1 and District 12-2 would refer to county PennDOT maintenance bases, one per county.

Someone *way* high up in the PDH probably considered 7 unlucky and imposed his will.

ixnay

[Beltway]

Someone *way* high up in the PDH probably considered 7 unlucky and imposed his will. ixnay

Simplest explanation was that a (reasonable) decision was made to consolidate the 6 counties into other districts, and that district went away.  Rather than renumber all the higher numbers, they left it as is.

That shows the problem of using numbers for districts rather than names, at least for popular use.

VDOT districts are referred to by names in all internal and external usage, although there are numbers that are used in internal accounting and information systems.  This goes back at least to the 1940s when the first modern accounting system was implemented.

0 Central Office
1 Bristol
2 Salem
3 Lynchburg
4 Richmond
5 Hampton Roads
6 Fredericksburg
7 Culpeper
8 Staunton
9 Research Council
A Northern Virginia

Central Office and Research Council have no counties assigned, it is just the office, and in general employee hierarchy and numbers they do resemble a geographical district.

Since all the single digits were in use when Northern Virginia was created (from Culpeper) in the 1980s, they used a letter code.

[webny99]

Should just renumber District 12 to District 7 and bam, problem solved: 11 districts numbered 1 through 11.

Yes, but then 7 would not be adjacent to 6 and 8, as it should be. Right now, it's easy (despite the absence of 7) to follow the logical clockwise numbering.

I wish NYSDOT had a more logical system, too; preferably one in which every district was adjacent to the districts with adjacent numbers. Right now, it jumps all over the map after Region 5.

[vdeane]

6 is still logical.  Really NY's main issue is that 8 and 9 should theoretically be switched, and of course 7 randomly being in the North Country.  10 and 11 are forgivable because they were once one region and NYC split off.

I have actually thought about that; the easiest way to "fix" NY's regions would be to do the following:
1: (same)
2: current 7
3: current 2
4: current 3
5: current 4
6: current 5
7: current 6
8: current 9
9: current 8
10: current 11
11: current 10

[cpzilliacus]

Five years eh? What did the NJ Turnpike Authority get done during the same amount of time? (hint: more then an interchange and some signing)

When it comes to reasonably big highway projects, it seems that PTC operates with the following  speeds:

1. Slow
2. Slower
3. Slowest
4. Stop

[Rothman]

6 is still logical.  Really NY's main issue is that 8 and 9 should theoretically be switched, and of course 7 randomly being in the North Country.  10 and 11 are forgivable because they were once one region and NYC split off.

I have actually thought about that; the easiest way to "fix" NY's regions would be to do the following:
1: (same)
2: current 7
3: current 2
4: current 3
5: current 4
6: current 5
7: current 6
8: current 9
9: current 8
10: current 11
11: current 10

There was also that proposal about seven years ago to reduce the number of regions.  Political forces put the kibosh on that.

[qguy]

Should just renumber District 12 to District 7 and bam, problem solved: 11 districts numbered 1 through 11.

Yes, but then 7 would not be adjacent to 6 and 8, as it should be. Right now, it's easy (despite the absence of 7) to follow the logical clockwise numbering.

District 7 is reserved for the PA Turnpike when it is absorbed into PennDOT. 

[roadman65]

Should we not start a subtopic titled DOT Regions?

Not that I mind it here as its good stuff but it is kind of derailed after 7 posts away from the OP.

[MNHighwayMan]

Should we not start a subtopic titled DOT Regions?

Not that I mind it here as its good stuff but it is kind of derailed after 7 posts away from the OP.

The new I-95/Turnpike interchange should be a part of the new District 7.