For the Catholics in here. He was 88.
Quote from: Big John on April 21, 2025, 06:57:25 AMFor the Catholics in here
He was much more important to more people than just Catholics. A true incarnation of God's presence on earth who supported all of God's children. Whether Catholic or not, Christian or not.
Emphatically not the headline I expected to see this morning.
I find it interesting to note that Pope John Paul II died the Saturday after Easter and Pope Francis died the day after Easter (meanwhile, Pope Benedict XVI died on December 31). There is a school of thought that some people can sometimes manage to hang onto life if there is something imminent for which they want to be alive. Makes me wonder whether they were consciously able to hang on to make it through Easter Sunday.
Quote from: GaryV on April 21, 2025, 07:15:23 AMQuote from: Big John on April 21, 2025, 06:57:25 AMFor the Catholics in here
He was much more important to more people than just Catholics. A true incarnation of God's presence on earth who supported all of God's children. Whether Catholic or not, Christian or not.
Francis was probably the first pope I had some respect for (being a non-religious person). He was far from perfect but he was certainly a step in the right direction. Unfortunately in his latter years he did a bit of an about-face on some of his stances, but he was still a well respected figure by pretty much everybody.
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on April 21, 2025, 08:37:34 AMQuote from: GaryV on April 21, 2025, 07:15:23 AMQuote from: Big John on April 21, 2025, 06:57:25 AMFor the Catholics in here
He was much more important to more people than just Catholics. A true incarnation of God's presence on earth who supported all of God's children. Whether Catholic or not, Christian or not.
Francis was probably the first pope I had some respect for (being a non-religious person). He was far from perfect but he was certainly a step in the right direction. Unfortunately in his latter years he did a bit of an about-face on some of his stances, but he was still a well respected figure by pretty much everybody.
I echo this sentiment. Seemed like a decent guy who tried to make some good reforms. Definitely a voice of tolerance which was welcome in this day and age.
!remindme 3 days
The Catholic Church has been seeing strong growth among the younger crowd in the 'West', including in western Europe and especially in the UK and France. They want something that is stable and traditional to rally around. It will thus be very interesting, indeed, to examine the direction that the Cardinals go in the upcoming Conclave.
Mike
Make the pope Catholic again.
[/religion]
Quote from: kphoger on April 21, 2025, 02:19:47 PMMake the pope Catholic again.
[/religion]
Heh. Maybe like the movie
Conclave predicts, there will be a push for a conservative Italian/Roman Pope...
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2025, 02:47:07 PMHeh. Maybe like the movie Conclave predicts, there will be a push for a conservative Italian/Roman Pope...
John Paul II was the first non-Italian pope in about four centuries.
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2025, 02:47:07 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 21, 2025, 02:19:47 PMMake the pope Catholic again.
[/religion]
Heh. Maybe like the movie Conclave predicts, there will be a push for a conservative Italian/Roman Pope...
The interesting thing is a lot of the Italian cardinals who are supposedly candidates to be the next pope are just as progressive as Francis, most notably Cardinal Zuppi. Cardinal Tagle is from the Philippines and is also rather surprisingly progressive.
The most conservative cardinals in that grouping are actually American and African.
Quote from: elsmere241 on April 21, 2025, 03:37:12 PMJohn Paul II was the first non-Italian pope in about four centuries.
Because, to put it bluntly, the cardinals thought they could puppet-master the Polak. But no puppet was JP2.
Francis, on the other hand, was already a ruckus maker before his installation as pope.
I'm at a moment. I mean people die all the time, but one given a title and responsibility has you ponder more than others death excluding close friends and family of course.
Quote from: mgk920 on April 21, 2025, 01:35:19 PMThe Catholic Church has been seeing strong growth among the younger crowd in the 'West', including in western Europe and especially in the UK and France.
Eh. I would like to see a citation for this. The Catholic church's growth is mostly due to net immigration in the United States, and I wouldn't call its growth "strong." According to the Vatican, it's less than 1% in the Americas.
Many places within the Church are struggling as the numbers may be high, but attendance is down.
Many register as parishioners, but don't attend Sunday masses. It pisses alot of people off because they are donating to the weekly basket and the rest of the deadbeats aren't only showing up at Mass, but not contributing a penny.
Some register only to be counted especially when matrimony comes. Then my mother registered my sister just to make her look good and to have a priest administer her matrimony because my sister was a convert to the Baptist faith. So my sister was a Catholic in name only and not worshipping.
I'm not a Catholic and not religious. That said, my wife is and does regularly attend church on Sundays. Usually she will bring one of her nieces but on occasion asks me to take her. I look it as more of a "quality time with me wife" thing rather than me taking up a faith.
I do find reading the church financial statements to be fascinating. As an outsider looking in I was quite surprised at how much people donate to keep the operation afloat.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 21, 2025, 06:10:48 PMI'm not a Catholic and not religious. That said, my wife is and does regularly attend church on Sundays. Usually she will bring one of her nieces but on occasion asks me to take her. I look it as more of a "quality time with me wife" thing rather than me taking up a faith.
I do find reading the church financial statements to be fascinating. As an outsider looking in I was quite surprised at how much people donate to keep the operation afloat.
Nothing's cheap, especially in California, and particularly if they run any local social services. I spent a good part of my formative years in the Salvation Army. Their finances are extremely complex.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 21, 2025, 05:14:30 PMQuote from: mgk920 on April 21, 2025, 01:35:19 PMThe Catholic Church has been seeing strong growth among the younger crowd in the 'West', including in western Europe and especially in the UK and France.
Eh. I would like to see a citation for this. The Catholic church's growth is mostly due to net immigration in the United States, and I wouldn't call its growth "strong." According to the Vatican, it's less than 1% in the Americas.
Too lazy to look up sources now, but I learned a little bit about it recently. At least in the UK and I think also in the US, the number of people who self-identify as regular attenders of religious services has been trending upward recently. Most notable are that (1) the strongest growth in attendance has been among young males, a demographic that is trending quite a bit higher than in the recent past, and (2) the denominations with the strongest such growth are the Catholics and the Pentecostals.
Quote from: kphoger on April 21, 2025, 06:44:36 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 21, 2025, 05:14:30 PMQuote from: mgk920 on April 21, 2025, 01:35:19 PMThe Catholic Church has been seeing strong growth among the younger crowd in the 'West', including in western Europe and especially in the UK and France.
Eh. I would like to see a citation for this. The Catholic church's growth is mostly due to net immigration in the United States, and I wouldn't call its growth "strong." According to the Vatican, it's less than 1% in the Americas.
Too lazy to look up sources now, but I learned a little bit about it recently. At least in the UK and I think also in the US, the number of people who self-identify as regular attenders of religious services has been trending upward recently. Most notable are that (1) the strongest growth in attendance has been among young males, a demographic that is trending quite a bit higher than in the recent past, and (2) the denominations with the strongest such growth are the Catholics and the Pentecostals.
Hm. Wonder where this study came from.
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2025, 07:02:05 PMHm. Wonder where this study came from.
OK, I looked back at it. The report is from Bible Society, which is based in Swindon. If you look at the key highlights on their website, you also get a bunch of biased, subjective opinions. But you can also download the report itself, although you do have to register (including your organization's name and your role within it) in order to do so.
You can look at people's reactions to the study on YouTube, but of course, going in, you have to keep their biases in mind. If you search for "quiet revival", you should find one by Gavin Ortlund: he is someone I respect very much, and someone who does not pounce on every new thing. I've also watched the video on the Speak Life channel, which is a channel I was previously unfamiliar with: it goes into greater detail about the study's findings. Again, keep the video hosts' biases in mind, but also appreciate the data behind the videos.
Quote from: kphoger on April 21, 2025, 06:44:36 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 21, 2025, 05:14:30 PMQuote from: mgk920 on April 21, 2025, 01:35:19 PMThe Catholic Church has been seeing strong growth among the younger crowd in the 'West', including in western Europe and especially in the UK and France.
Eh. I would like to see a citation for this. The Catholic church's growth is mostly due to net immigration in the United States, and I wouldn't call its growth "strong." According to the Vatican, it's less than 1% in the Americas.
Too lazy to look up sources now, but I learned a little bit about it recently. At least in the UK and I think also in the US, the number of people who self-identify as regular attenders of religious services has been trending upward recently. Most notable are that (1) the strongest growth in attendance has been among young males, a demographic that is trending quite a bit higher than in the recent past, and (2) the denominations with the strongest such growth are the Catholics and the Pentecostals.
I know in my town, the Episcopal church and the Presbyterian (USA) church have had to add services. Other denominations in town are losing people fast.
Quote from: kphoger on April 21, 2025, 06:44:36 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 21, 2025, 05:14:30 PMQuote from: mgk920 on April 21, 2025, 01:35:19 PMThe Catholic Church has been seeing strong growth among the younger crowd in the 'West', including in western Europe and especially in the UK and France.
Eh. I would like to see a citation for this. The Catholic church's growth is mostly due to net immigration in the United States, and I wouldn't call its growth "strong." According to the Vatican, it's less than 1% in the Americas.
Too lazy to look up sources now, but I learned a little bit about it recently. At least in the UK and I think also in the US, the number of people who self-identify as regular attenders of religious services has been trending upward recently. Most notable are that (1) the strongest growth in attendance has been among young males, a demographic that is trending quite a bit higher than in the recent past, and (2) the denominations with the strongest such growth are the Catholics and the Pentecostals.
Right. But I wouldn't necessarily say it's "strong." It's marginal at best.
I'm not a Catholic, but it saddens me all the same when a pope dies. Francis will forever go down in history as the one who broke the papal mold by doing all the things his predecessors never did, and it also helps that he was the humblest, most caring pope who made it his mission to reach out to all faiths. I'm beginning to believe that we'll never find another pope like Francis, but after stretching the boundaries for his role, I can't be too sure of that. We'll see in 15-20 days when his successor is named.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 21, 2025, 09:52:53 PMRight. But I wouldn't necessarily say it's "strong." It's marginal at best.
If I'm remembering the numbers correctly, the number of people aged 21-ish who attend church regularly has risen from 1 in 20 to 1 in 7. (Someone else, correct me if I'm wrong.) Nearly tripling is not what I'd call 'marginal growth'.
Quote from: kphoger on April 21, 2025, 10:10:45 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 21, 2025, 09:52:53 PMRight. But I wouldn't necessarily say it's "strong." It's marginal at best.
If I'm remembering the numbers correctly, the number of people aged 21-ish who attend church regularly has risen from 1 in 20 to 1 in 7. (Someone else, correct me if I'm wrong.) Nearly tripling is not what I'd call 'marginal growth'.
Not saying you're wrong, but I'd be shocked if it were that high.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 21, 2025, 11:27:49 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 21, 2025, 10:10:45 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 21, 2025, 09:52:53 PMRight. But I wouldn't necessarily say it's "strong." It's marginal at best.
If I'm remembering the numbers correctly, the number of people aged 21-ish who attend church regularly has risen from 1 in 20 to 1 in 7. (Someone else, correct me if I'm wrong.) Nearly tripling is not what I'd call 'marginal growth'.
Not saying you're wrong, but I'd be shocked if it were that high.
Yeah that doesn't sound remotely accurate.
Now that he's dead, let's remove most religious holidays from the calendar of civic holidays.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 05:26:35 AMNow that he's dead, let's remove most religious holidays from the calendar of civic holidays.
In the United States, there is one such holiday. Christmas. And it could be argued that it's as much of a civic holiday as a religious one these days.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 05:35:19 AMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 05:26:35 AMNow that he's dead, let's remove most religious holidays from the calendar of civic holidays.
In the United States, there is one such holiday. Christmas. And it could be argued that it's as much of a civic holiday as a religious one these days.
Indeed, the most popular Christmas tradition is spending obscene amounts of money at like 12:08 am the day after Thanksgiving.
I went the other day to try a Butter Burger at Culver's. The place was empty. I went in to check to see that they're not like Chick Fil A being closed on Sunday, but the sign on the door says open daily 10:30 AM to 10 PM. It was 7 pm on Sunday and yet doors locked. Thought they went out of business as I've seen businesses close and keep signs up and no mention that they've closed. So I figure bye bye Culver's.
Found out next day from employee that to Culver's owners Easter is a Civic holiday and gave staff the day off.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 22, 2025, 09:20:57 AMI went the other day to try a Butter Burger at Culver's. The place was empty. I went in to check to see that they're not like Chick Fil A being closed on Sunday, but the sign on the door says open daily 10:30 AM to 10 PM. It was 7 pm on Sunday and yet doors locked. Thought they went out of business as I've seen businesses close and keep signs up and no mention that they've closed. So I figure bye bye Culver's.
Found out next day from employee that to Culver's owners Easter is a Civic holiday and gave staff the day off.
I'm surprised there wasn't a note on the door. I've seen that before at fast food places, such as on Thanksgiving.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 22, 2025, 09:20:57 AMI went the other day to try a Butter Burger at Culver's. The place was empty. I went in to check to see that they're not like Chick Fil A being closed on Sunday, but the sign on the door says open daily 10:30 AM to 10 PM. It was 7 pm on Sunday and yet doors locked. Thought they went out of business as I've seen businesses close and keep signs up and no mention that they've closed. So I figure bye bye Culver's.
Found out next day from employee that to Culver's owners Easter is a Civic holiday and gave staff the day off.
Yep. They are always closed on Easter. A number of places that are usually open on Sunday are though. I don't think this is unusual.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2025, 09:25:50 AMQuote from: roadman65 on April 22, 2025, 09:20:57 AMI went the other day to try a Butter Burger at Culver's. The place was empty. I went in to check to see that they're not like Chick Fil A being closed on Sunday, but the sign on the door says open daily 10:30 AM to 10 PM. It was 7 pm on Sunday and yet doors locked. Thought they went out of business as I've seen businesses close and keep signs up and no mention that they've closed. So I figure bye bye Culver's.
Found out next day from employee that to Culver's owners Easter is a Civic holiday and gave staff the day off.
I'm surprised there wasn't a note on the door. I've seen that before at fast food places, such as on Thanksgiving.
We walked over to a grocery store on Sunday afternoon and passed three businesses that had temporary signs in the window saying "Closed Easter Sunday" (some typed, some handwritten). It was sort of amusing to see how shocked some people were to find a store closed when we passed one of them.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:28:20 AMI don't think this is unusual.
I would never go to a business on Easter, find it locked up, and then assume...
Quote from: roadman65 on April 22, 2025, 09:20:57 AM... they went out of business ...
Of course, if you're not religious (or if you are and you don't do anything special for it), it's pretty easy to not realize it's Easter. The method for determining when it falls isn't terribly straightforward.
Last spring, I went to the Tropicana just before it closed. I needed to use the bathroom, and I had to wander around in a maze of turned-off slot machines and forgotten hallways to find it. When I got there, there was a man in a bunny suit in the bathroom, carrying a small stuffed carrot. It was entirely surreal, but I just wrote it off as Vegas being Vegas. It wasn't until I left the casino that I realized it was Easter.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 22, 2025, 10:13:02 AMI just wrote it off as Vegas being Vegas. It wasn't until I left the casino that I realized it was Easter.
I think it's hilarious that Easter was only your
second thought. If he'd had a basket of eggs, then I'm sure you'd have figured it out immediately.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 22, 2025, 10:13:02 AMOf course, if you're not religious (or if you are and you don't do anything special for it), it's pretty easy to not realize it's Easter. The method for determining when it falls isn't terribly straightforward.
Last spring, I went to the Tropicana just before it closed. I needed to use the bathroom, and I had to wander around in a maze of turned-off slot machines and forgotten hallways to find it. When I got there, there was a man in a bunny suit in the bathroom, carrying a small stuffed carrot. It was entirely surreal, but I just wrote it off as Vegas being Vegas. It wasn't until I left the casino that I realized it was Easter.
I had no idea it was Easter until my mom wanted to send something to my son for the holiday. Especially for religious holidays that move dates, I have no visibility.
In contrast, I'd never been as aware of Easter's date as I was this year. That's because our church congregation moved locations, to a new build site, and Easter was our 'launch date' at the new location. So I've been involved in moving days, work project days, a/v wiring and sound checks, extra music rehearsals, and two 'soft launch' church services—all in preparation for Easter.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2025, 10:28:34 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 22, 2025, 10:13:02 AMI just wrote it off as Vegas being Vegas. It wasn't until I left the casino that I realized it was Easter.
I think it's hilarious that Easter was only your second thought. If he'd had a basket of eggs, then I'm sure you'd have figured it out immediately.
I'm not so sure! It is hard to live in Las Vegas without being able to just take the absurd in stride. Eventually it just becomes normal. Man in a bunny suit, yup, that tracks for a Sunday at the Trop.
A couple examples: On my wife's way to her first day at work, she saw a billboard with a lawyer's phone number and the text "Injured looking for dead bodies at Lake Mead? Demand compensation!" Not too long after that, we saw a news story about a mysterious obelisk (https://news3lv.com/news/local/mysterious-monolith-returns-spotted-on-las-vegas-hiking-trail) that had been installed on Gass Peak, which I had just learned was the name of the mountain to the north of where we lived. (Apparently the organization responsible for handling mysterious mountain obelisks is the police department, in case you were wondering.) Then there was the Henderson bread incident (https://www.8newsnow.com/news/local-news/bread-related-crime-on-the-rise-for-one-henderson-business/)...
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2025, 10:28:34 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 22, 2025, 10:13:02 AMI just wrote it off as Vegas being Vegas. It wasn't until I left the casino that I realized it was Easter.
I think it's hilarious that Easter was only your second thought. If he'd had a basket of eggs, then I'm sure you'd have figured it out immediately.
Why. It didn't take long afterwards to hope that it was Easter. Plus who closes on a non federal holiday on a Sunday these days. Hell airlines fly more flights on Christmas Day ( a holiday that's not only religious but secular as well) despite for years people made travel plans before Christmas Day as the purpose of celebrating Christmas is to spend a whole quiet day with family. Not traveling to get there and spend only part of a holiday celebrating.
I worked in the hospitality industry and we had no holidays unless your were in management. When you suggested religious holidays off you would be laughed at. All hands work Christmas and Easter and that was it!
As far as going out of business Whataburger, a very busy restaurant, closed in Central Florida at a moments notice leaving stores empty only for you to notice that they're closed for good.
To me closing for Easter is very strange other than Chick Fil A, and they make known that they celebrate Sunday. Of course many people have publicly chastised them for closing Sundays.
Plus some on here even admitted they forgot it's Easter as the GP don't make important anymore like they used to. That's the same reason why the hospitality industry don't close on Easter and if they realize it's Easter it's to make extra money like Mothers Day.
My guess is that a lot of Culvers' workers, many who are teenagers, ask off anyway.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 22, 2025, 09:20:57 AMFound out next day from employee that to Culver's owners Easter is a Civic holiday and gave staff the day off.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 22, 2025, 09:37:54 AMWe walked over to a grocery store on Sunday afternoon and passed three businesses that had temporary signs in the window saying "Closed Easter Sunday" (some typed, some handwritten).
Quote from: roadman65 on April 22, 2025, 11:40:34 AMPlus who closes on a non federal holiday on a Sunday these days.
Anecdotally, we're up to four in this thread, plus apparently all of the other Culver's locations.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 05:26:35 AMNow that he's dead, let's remove most religious holidays from the calendar of civic holidays.
Was Frank the guy demanding you had a Bank Holiday on Friday? I don't see what the Bishop of Rome has to do with Canadian holidays, given its a country with no established church, let alone that established church being Roman Catholicism.
If you want such holidays removed, go talk to those standing for election in your riding and see if they would do it if they became your MP.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 04:57:42 AMYeah that doesn't sound remotely accurate.
Are you an expert on UK church going habits?
I've not yet found someone on the ground in the UK church who has been surprised by these figures. They might be surprised by the growth that is happening, but the figures ring true to those with their ears to the ground. It surprised society - hence why the Bible Society decided to publish the report of the poll data under the title 'quiet revival' - 50% more people going to church regularly is noticeable. But when you start from a small percentage, one-and-a-half times that small percentage is still a small percentage and you don't notice it.
There is zero reason to give a false report of attending church more than you used to to a secular polling company about this. Especially as being a regular church goer still has a negative social stigma in the UK (though less than in 2014). Especially if you are a young male!
Whenever I've heard UK people write articles or go on podcasts for the US audience to talk about challenges of post-Christianity, and the decline of the church, etc - the number they always give is 20 - that the UK is 20 years ahead of the US on that decline. The context of this 'quiet revival' is very different to any US context.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 21, 2025, 08:22:04 AMThere is a school of thought that some people can sometimes manage to hang onto life if there is something imminent for which they want to be alive.
The Queen held out until two days after the Tory leadership election results. She had a new PM to kiss hands with at the end of the summer and she made sure she did that constitutional duty.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2025, 12:04:39 PMQuote from: roadman65 on April 22, 2025, 09:20:57 AMFound out next day from employee that to Culver's owners Easter is a Civic holiday and gave staff the day off.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 22, 2025, 09:37:54 AMWe walked over to a grocery store on Sunday afternoon and passed three businesses that had temporary signs in the window saying "Closed Easter Sunday" (some typed, some handwritten).
Quote from: roadman65 on April 22, 2025, 11:40:34 AMPlus who closes on a non federal holiday on a Sunday these days.
Anecdotally, we're up to four in this thread, plus apparently all of the other Culver's locations.
Well it looks like the world is turning around somewhat. Some people now are going back to old school which is okay.
However it seems like different parts of society practice different morals and each part, wherever they are situated, seems to not hear of the other and demonstrate that their way is a majority belief.
I guess the quote that Bandit told Carrie in Smokey and The Bandit holds true. "It depends on what part of the country you're standing is to how dumb you really are."
Obviously, we are a divided nation still and it all depends on who you ask you will get the impression of who the majority is differently.
Quote from: kphoger on April 21, 2025, 06:44:36 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 21, 2025, 05:14:30 PMQuote from: mgk920 on April 21, 2025, 01:35:19 PMThe Catholic Church has been seeing strong growth among the younger crowd in the 'West', including in western Europe and especially in the UK and France.
Eh. I would like to see a citation for this. The Catholic church's growth is mostly due to net immigration in the United States, and I wouldn't call its growth "strong." According to the Vatican, it's less than 1% in the Americas.
Too lazy to look up sources now, but I learned a little bit about it recently. At least in the UK and I think also in the US, the number of people who self-identify as regular attenders of religious services has been trending upward recently. Most notable are that (1) the strongest growth in attendance has been among young males, a demographic that is trending quite a bit higher than in the recent past, and (2) the denominations with the strongest such growth are the Catholics and the Pentecostals.
I go to a Pentecostal university, and I know at least 4 charismatic Catholics here (including a guy who just got confirmed this week), so anecdotally I would say that Catholicism is on the rise, but I couldn't cite specifics. I would also say that Pentecostalism is on the rise too, as my university's student population has risen every year for about the last 10 years. On the other hand, I am probably the only young adult at my Pentecostal church, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 21, 2025, 11:27:49 PMNot saying you're wrong, but I'd be shocked if it were that high.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 04:57:42 AMYeah that doesn't sound remotely accurate.
Quote from: english si on April 22, 2025, 01:14:16 PMI've not yet found someone on the ground in the UK church who has been surprised by these figures. They might be surprised by the growth that is happening, but the figures ring true to those with their ears to the ground. It surprised society ...
To chime in here some more, still from an American perspective...
First of all, the constant narrative since my teenage years has been that religion has been on an unstoppable downhill trajectory. This trajectory and narrative can now be measured in decades. And I don't mean 'narrative' in a disparaging sense, because the truth of it has been apparent in both measurable and intangible ways to people within the Church just as much as to those outside it. It's something we lament, consider to be unfortunate, but have in large part come to accept and adapt to. Therefore, if members of secular society are surprised by the growth that is happening, believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as surprised. And if you are skeptical about the numbers, then believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as skeptical (well, maybe not
quite, but close).
Secondly, even if we aren't seeing the same numbers here in the US as in the UK, that doesn't mean there isn't something going on here too. There has been a noticeable and measurable trend within Christianity, for example, of people switching from less traditional churches and denominations to more traditional ones—specifically people from non-liturgical Baptist-type churches being drawn to the history and the complexity of Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. This suggests that, even among already-religious Christians, there is an appetite for
more formality in spiritual things, not less. It might not be so surprising, then, if there is a parallel trend happening among the non-religious population.
Thirdly, speaking of the non-religious, before this study was released I had already been surprised by some statistics coming out about religion and spirituality in the US. In fact, it was just about four weeks ago that I was having a PM conversation with another forum member about it. Looking back through my message history... Among respondents to a 2023 survey by Pew Research, 83% believed that people have a spirit or a soul, 81% believe in the supernatural, 74% believe that science cannot explain everything, and 71% believe in Heaven. So, to me at least, it was already becoming clear that people weren't entirely satisfied with materialism.
And lastly, as our society has become less and less interpersonal over the last few decades, and especially with the recent ubiquity of one's nose being buried in a smartphone, my own suspicion is that the communal aspect of organized religion serves to fill a void in some young people's lives. Instagram and Zoom simply don't bring people together in the same way as does physically participating in something together. In decades past, that need may have been fulfilled by bowling leagues or bridge clubs or whatever, and maybe these days church attendance is increasingly fulfilling that need in a similar way.
Then the clickbait headlines (US Sun): "JCPenney confirms it will close all stores for 24hrs in retail blackout – and Macy's won't be much use either." - meaning closed on Easter Sunday.
I just don't trust church attendance statistics from an organization called "The Bible Society". I also wouldn't trust church attendance statistics from American Atheists either. Both have clear biases.
Quote from: english si on April 22, 2025, 01:14:16 PMThere is zero reason to give a false report of attending church more than you used to to a secular polling company about this. Especially as being a regular church goer still has a negative social stigma in the UK (though less than in 2014). Especially if you are a young male!
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 22, 2025, 02:30:01 PMI just don't trust church attendance statistics from an organization called "The Bible Society". I also wouldn't trust church attendance statistics from American Atheists either. Both have clear biases.
Completely understandable. That's where the quote above comes in. While there are certainly psychological reasons to misrepresent one's own churchgoing-ness in a poll, I don't think you could say there's
more pressure nowadays than in the past to over-represent it.
Also, while the study was commissioned by the Bible Society, it was actually conducted by
YouGov (https://yougov.co.uk/).
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2025, 03:14:18 PMQuote from: english si on April 22, 2025, 01:14:16 PMThere is zero reason to give a false report of attending church more than you used to to a secular polling company about this. Especially as being a regular church goer still has a negative social stigma in the UK (though less than in 2014). Especially if you are a young male!
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 22, 2025, 02:30:01 PMI just don't trust church attendance statistics from an organization called "The Bible Society". I also wouldn't trust church attendance statistics from American Atheists either. Both have clear biases.
Completely understandable. That's where the quote above comes in. While there are certainly psychological reasons to misrepresent one's own churchgoing-ness in a poll, I don't think you could say there's more pressure nowadays than in the past to over-represent it.
Also, while the study was commissioned by the Bible Society, it was actually conducted by YouGov (https://yougov.co.uk/).
I dunno. I think there actually might be more pressure nowadays where everyone seemingly shares their entire lives on social media.
Quote from: english si on April 22, 2025, 01:14:16 PMAre you an expert on UK church going habits?
I've not yet found someone on the ground in the UK church who has been surprised by these figures. They might be surprised by the growth that is happening, but the figures ring true to those with their ears to the ground. It surprised society - hence why the Bible Society decided to publish the report of the poll data under the title 'quiet revival' - 50% more people going to church regularly is noticeable. But when you start from a small percentage, one-and-a-half times that small percentage is still a small percentage and you don't notice it.
I was speaking specifically about the United States.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2025, 02:24:18 PMQuote from: JayhawkCO on April 21, 2025, 11:27:49 PMNot saying you're wrong, but I'd be shocked if it were that high.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 04:57:42 AMYeah that doesn't sound remotely accurate.
Quote from: english si on April 22, 2025, 01:14:16 PMI've not yet found someone on the ground in the UK church who has been surprised by these figures. They might be surprised by the growth that is happening, but the figures ring true to those with their ears to the ground. It surprised society ...
To chime in here some more, still from an American perspective...
First of all, the constant narrative since my teenage years has been that religion has been on an unstoppable downhill trajectory. This trajectory and narrative can now be measured in decades. And I don't mean 'narrative' in a disparaging sense, because the truth of it has been apparent in both measurable and intangible ways to people within the Church just as much as to those outside it. It's something we lament, consider to be unfortunate, but have in large part come to accept and adapt to. Therefore, if members of secular society are surprised by the growth that is happening, believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as surprised. And if you are skeptical about the numbers, then believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as skeptical (well, maybe not quite, but close).
Secondly, even if we aren't seeing the same numbers here in the US as in the UK, that doesn't mean there isn't something going on here too. There has been a noticeable and measurable trend within Christianity, for example, of people switching from less traditional churches and denominations to more traditional ones—specifically people from non-liturgical Baptist-type churches being drawn to the history and the complexity of Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. This suggests that, even among already-religious Christians, there is an appetite for more formality in spiritual things, not less. It might not be so surprising, then, if there is a parallel trend happening among the non-religious population.
Thirdly, speaking of the non-religious, before this study was released I had already been surprised by some statistics coming out about religion and spirituality in the US. In fact, it was just about four weeks ago that I was having a PM conversation with another forum member about it. Looking back through my message history... Among respondents to a 2023 survey by Pew Research, 83% believed that people have a spirit or a soul, 81% believe in the supernatural, 74% believe that science cannot explain everything, and 71% believe in Heaven. So, to me at least, it was already becoming clear that people weren't entirely satisfied with materialism.
And lastly, as our society has become less and less interpersonal over the last few decades, and especially with the recent ubiquity of one's nose being buried in a smartphone, my own suspicion is that the communal aspect of organized religion serves to fill a void in some young people's lives. Instagram and Zoom simply don't bring people together in the same way as does physically participating in something together. In decades past, that need may have been fulfilled by bowling leagues or bridge clubs or whatever, and maybe these days church attendance is increasingly fulfilling that need in a similar way.
Right. This is cool and all, but this isn't evidence for "strong" growth.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2025, 02:24:18 PMTherefore, if members of secular society are surprised by the growth that is happening, believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as surprised. And if you are skeptical about the numbers, then believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as skeptical (well, maybe not quite, but close).
My point about observant people in the church not being surprised by the numbers (which I guess also means not being skeptical about them) is not that they aren't surprised by the numbers and the growth after decades of decline narrative. It's that the numbers are merely formalising what they could see going on.
And then there's the different viewpoints. A societal change from 8% to 12% is a lot less noticeable than a 150% growth within. Society is much less likely to notice what's a small change within it, than those within the growing group.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 22, 2025, 03:22:50 PMI dunno. I think there actually might be more pressure nowadays where everyone seemingly shares their entire lives on social media.
Oversharing on social media, especially among the young, has been a thing for nearly all of those 18-24 year olds' lives now - it's not something brand new anymore and if it created a change, it would have done so in previous surveys, rather than this one.
Speaking of oversharing, and it's only somewhat related to the Pope dying: religion has too much of a place in our society in the year of our Lord 2025 (and saying that is also a religious thing). I don't think holidays like Easter, Thanksgiving should paralyze the entire country because of one religion's beliefs.
Since when is Thanksgiving (in either country) a religious holiday?
Quote from: hotdogPi on April 22, 2025, 08:26:07 PMSince when is Thanksgiving (in either country) a religious holiday?
It's a pagan holiday, isn't it?
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 08:29:19 PMQuote from: hotdogPi on April 22, 2025, 08:26:07 PMSince when is Thanksgiving (in either country) a religious holiday?
It's a pagan holiday, isn't it?
No. It's just a national holiday for giving thanks.
Regardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:02:00 PMRegardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.
Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).
Good Friday had normal service here, and the only reason Easter Monday didn't is because it was Patriots' Day in Massachusetts (which doesn't coincide every year).
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 09:15:33 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:02:00 PMRegardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.
Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).
It wasn't that long ago that a lot of major retail stores were closed on Easter. I'm kind of surprised there has been a retreat by some back towards being closed again.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 09:15:33 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:02:00 PMRegardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.
Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).
Well, to be fair, Easter Monday isn't really a thing in the United States, but are stores closing really paralyzing? It felt to me that most of society fuctioned fairly well. We usually go get ice cream on Sunday nights at our favorite local place, but we went Saturday instead.
And I noticed no issues on Good Friday.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 22, 2025, 09:19:59 PMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 09:15:33 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:02:00 PMRegardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.
Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).
It wasn't that long ago that a lot of major retail stores were closed on Easter. I'm kind of surprised there has been a retreat by some back towards being closed again.
Like a lot of things these days, I think its mostly due to staff shortages. Not many want to work, and the volume isn't that great, so they just shut down instead.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:22:00 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on April 22, 2025, 09:19:59 PMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 09:15:33 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:02:00 PMRegardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.
Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).
It wasn't that long ago that a lot of major retail stores were closed on Easter. I'm kind of surprised there has been a retreat by some back towards being closed again.
Like a lot of things these days, I think its mostly due to staff shortages. Not many want to work, and the volume isn't that great, so they just shut down instead.
Hell, I haven't staffed since before COVID times. Just a waste of payroll to have people hanging out on camera at a super slow Big Box store. I haven't kept my pulse on what is going on in the real world but they seem to be experiencing a volume drop also.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 22, 2025, 09:24:23 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:22:00 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on April 22, 2025, 09:19:59 PMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 09:15:33 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:02:00 PMRegardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.
Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).
It wasn't that long ago that a lot of major retail stores were closed on Easter. I'm kind of surprised there has been a retreat by some back towards being closed again.
Like a lot of things these days, I think its mostly due to staff shortages. Not many want to work, and the volume isn't that great, so they just shut down instead.
Hell, I haven't staffed since before COVID times. Just a waste of payroll to have people hanging out on camera at a super slow Big Box store. I haven't kept my pulse on what is going on in the real world but they seem to be experiencing a volume drop also.
I know a number of grocery stores that used to be 24/7 before COVID, now shut down at night. I think stores have realized that if people really want something, they can shop online and pick it up tomorrow.
Well, if stores are closed for a religious holiday, if anything it gives people who don't celebrate a day to take off work and rest. I don't think I (as a Christian) would complain if I were working in India and had to take off work for Holi, even if I didn't care at all about the holiday. Rest is good for everyone.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:34:00 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on April 22, 2025, 09:24:23 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:22:00 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on April 22, 2025, 09:19:59 PMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 09:15:33 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:02:00 PMRegardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.
Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).
It wasn't that long ago that a lot of major retail stores were closed on Easter. I'm kind of surprised there has been a retreat by some back towards being closed again.
Like a lot of things these days, I think its mostly due to staff shortages. Not many want to work, and the volume isn't that great, so they just shut down instead.
Hell, I haven't staffed since before COVID times. Just a waste of payroll to have people hanging out on camera at a super slow Big Box store. I haven't kept my pulse on what is going on in the real world but they seem to be experiencing a volume drop also.
I know a number of grocery stores that used to be 24/7 before COVID, now shut down at night. I think stores have realized that if people really want something, they can shop online and pick it up tomorrow.
A lot of the overnight stuff never made much sense to me. Every store that I've had a hand in that did it lost money during overnight hours, even from the get go. The payroll costs never made sense with the low customer head counts.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2025, 02:24:18 PMQuote from: JayhawkCO on April 21, 2025, 11:27:49 PMNot saying you're wrong, but I'd be shocked if it were that high.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 04:57:42 AMYeah that doesn't sound remotely accurate.
Quote from: english si on April 22, 2025, 01:14:16 PMI've not yet found someone on the ground in the UK church who has been surprised by these figures. They might be surprised by the growth that is happening, but the figures ring true to those with their ears to the ground. It surprised society ...
To chime in here some more, still from an American perspective...
First of all, the constant narrative since my teenage years has been that religion has been on an unstoppable downhill trajectory. This trajectory and narrative can now be measured in decades. And I don't mean 'narrative' in a disparaging sense, because the truth of it has been apparent in both measurable and intangible ways to people within the Church just as much as to those outside it. It's something we lament, consider to be unfortunate, but have in large part come to accept and adapt to. Therefore, if members of secular society are surprised by the growth that is happening, believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as surprised. And if you are skeptical about the numbers, then believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as skeptical (well, maybe not quite, but close).
Secondly, even if we aren't seeing the same numbers here in the US as in the UK, that doesn't mean there isn't something going on here too. There has been a noticeable and measurable trend within Christianity, for example, of people switching from less traditional churches and denominations to more traditional ones—specifically people from non-liturgical Baptist-type churches being drawn to the history and the complexity of Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. This suggests that, even among already-religious Christians, there is an appetite for more formality in spiritual things, not less. It might not be so surprising, then, if there is a parallel trend happening among the non-religious population.
Thirdly, speaking of the non-religious, before this study was released I had already been surprised by some statistics coming out about religion and spirituality in the US. In fact, it was just about four weeks ago that I was having a PM conversation with another forum member about it. Looking back through my message history... Among respondents to a 2023 survey by Pew Research, 83% believed that people have a spirit or a soul, 81% believe in the supernatural, 74% believe that science cannot explain everything, and 71% believe in Heaven. So, to me at least, it was already becoming clear that people weren't entirely satisfied with materialism.
And lastly, as our society has become less and less interpersonal over the last few decades, and especially with the recent ubiquity of one's nose being buried in a smartphone, my own suspicion is that the communal aspect of organized religion serves to fill a void in some young people's lives. Instagram and Zoom simply don't bring people together in the same way as does physically participating in something together. In decades past, that need may have been fulfilled by bowling leagues or bridge clubs or whatever, and maybe these days church attendance is increasingly fulfilling that need in a similar way.
This all seems like opinion based upon questionable data -- sure, if you believe the single study, then the rest follows. As a very steady churchgoer/Christian myself that has at least kept an eye out on more scholarly studies on religion participation in the U.S. over the decades, I find this particular study to be an outlier. Also very much raise my eyebrow at the idea of "traditional" churches experiencing a net gain due to younger generations leaving non-traditional ones -- whatever that means, really. There are a gazillion Christian sects in this country.
At least for my own religion, my church stopped reporting statistics in its churchwide conferences a few years ago. Personally suspect that's because our membership records are bloated with those that are "inactive" of which quite a proportion probably don't even affiliate with it any longer. Furthermore, growth in my religion is now happening abroad rather than within the U.S., where it's treading water and kept up more by kids being brought up in the religion rather than people converting to it. Still, sure, my own Christian religion's an outlier in of itself in a way.
I also don't find the Pew's survey results indicating a rejection of materialism. Plenty of wishy-washy people that claim some modicum of spirituality out there and I don't think I've met a scientist yet that claims science has the current ability to explain everything.
Time will tell. Also thinking of a friend of mine who was a treasurer at an Episcopalian church in Maryland that was on the ropes. The "board" or whatever was spending away, determined that "God would provide." Turned out the King Family came in with a big donation to save the place. Perhaps God did, then.
Quote from: Rothman on April 22, 2025, 09:49:53 PMAt least for my own religion, my church stopped reporting statistics in its churchwide conferences a few years ago. Personally suspect that's because our membership records are bloated with those that are "inactive" of which quite a proportion probably don't even affiliate with it any longer. Furthermore, growth in my religion is now happening abroad rather than within the U.S., where it's treading water and kept up more by kids being brought up in the religion rather than people converting to it. Still, sure, my own Christian religion's an outlier in of itself in a way.
The statistics are reported, they just aren't read aloud in a general Conference session. See https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/2024-statistical-report
Men aged under 30 (exactly the demographic mentioned earlier) swung hard toward Trump in 2024 compared to 2020. I can believe it.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 09:15:33 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:02:00 PMRegardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.
Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).
Lowes was closed; Home Depot open. Shoprite was closed; Acme was Open. Local convenience store where I buy milk was closed. Local convenience store where I buy lottery tickets for my mother-in-law was open. Wawa was open. Some restaurants; both fast food, and non-fast food, was open.
Overall, there was probably more stores closed than open. Maybe I would need to travel slightly further than normal, or go to a store I normally don't go to. But the region wasn't paralyzed; no one was stuck on the road running out of gas, and no one was starving because they couldn't get anything to eat.
If you want to compare it to a day where there's a snowstorm, more businesses were open on Easter than snowstorm days...when a region is truly paralyzed until roads can be plowed and opened.
Quote from: elsmere241 on April 22, 2025, 09:56:49 PMQuote from: Rothman on April 22, 2025, 09:49:53 PMAt least for my own religion, my church stopped reporting statistics in its churchwide conferences a few years ago. Personally suspect that's because our membership records are bloated with those that are "inactive" of which quite a proportion probably don't even affiliate with it any longer. Furthermore, growth in my religion is now happening abroad rather than within the U.S., where it's treading water and kept up more by kids being brought up in the religion rather than people converting to it. Still, sure, my own Christian religion's an outlier in of itself in a way.
The statistics are reported, they just aren't read aloud in a general Conference session. See https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/2024-statistical-report
Well, sure, they're being kept. But, there seem to be obvious reasons why they're not announced in General Conference any longer.
Quote from: hotdogPi on April 22, 2025, 09:58:08 PMMen aged under 30 (exactly the demographic mentioned earlier) swung hard toward Trump in 2024 compared to 2020. I can believe it.
I think this had to do with nihilism more than religiosity.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 22, 2025, 11:40:34 AMQuote from: kphoger on April 22, 2025, 10:28:34 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 22, 2025, 10:13:02 AMI just wrote it off as Vegas being Vegas. It wasn't until I left the casino that I realized it was Easter.
I think it's hilarious that Easter was only your second thought. If he'd had a basket of eggs, then I'm sure you'd have figured it out immediately.
Why. It didn't take long afterwards to hope that it was Easter. Plus who closes on a non federal holiday on a Sunday these days. Hell airlines fly more flights on Christmas Day ( a holiday that's not only religious but secular as well) despite for years people made travel plans before Christmas Day as the purpose of celebrating Christmas is to spend a whole quiet day with family. Not traveling to get there and spend only part of a holiday celebrating.
I worked in the hospitality industry and we had no holidays unless your were in management. When you suggested religious holidays off you would be laughed at. All hands work Christmas and Easter and that was it!
As far as going out of business Whataburger, a very busy restaurant, closed in Central Florida at a moments notice leaving stores empty only for you to notice that they're closed for good.
To me closing for Easter is very strange other than Chick Fil A, and they make known that they celebrate Sunday. Of course many people have publicly chastised them for closing Sundays.
Plus some on here even admitted they forgot it's Easter as the GP don't make important anymore like they used to. That's the same reason why the hospitality industry don't close on Easter and if they realize it's Easter it's to make extra money like Mothers Day.
What does any of this have to do with a man in a bunny suit in the Tropicana casino in Las Vegas, Nevada in April 2024?
Quote from: CoreySamson on April 22, 2025, 09:35:27 PMWell, if stores are closed for a religious holiday, if anything it gives people who don't celebrate a day to take off work and rest. I don't think I (as a Christian) would complain if I were working in India and had to take off work for Holi, even if I didn't care at all about the holiday. Rest is good for everyone.
Day off of work for resting...good.
Day that you don't get paid when you otherwise would...bad.
Quote from: hotdogPi on April 22, 2025, 09:58:08 PMMen aged under 30 (exactly the demographic mentioned earlier) swung hard toward Trump in 2024 compared to 2020. I can believe it.
I don't find many Trump supporters to be particularly religious.
Quote from: CoreySamson on April 22, 2025, 09:35:27 PMWell, if stores are closed for a religious holiday, if anything it gives people who don't celebrate a day to take off work and rest. I don't think I (as a Christian) would complain if I were working in India and had to take off work for Holi, even if I didn't care at all about the holiday. Rest is good for everyone.
A firm where my wife used to work had Jewish management and gave employees the day off (with pay) for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. She isn't Jewish. At least once, we used one of those days to play golf.
I, in turn, had a Jewish colleague who liked to go into the office on Christmas because he said it was the quietest day of the year there and he could get a lot done without interruption.
Christmas any major holidays which people stay home are the best days for a run or a hike. Nobody is ever around and the silence is golden.
I remember as a child when Columbus Day, Election Day, and even Veterans Day were holidays given off from school and work.
Even Lincoln's Birthday was a day off February 12.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 23, 2025, 08:36:31 AMI remember as a child when Columbus Day, Election Day, and even Veterans Day were holidays given off from school and work.
Even Lincoln's Birthday was a day off February 12.
Columbus Day is a school holiday here. Much of the private sector doesn't observe it, but the biggest employer in the DC area is the US government, so you definitely notice the reduced traffic. The same is true of Veterans Day, although I don't know whether the schools observe it (they did not when I was a kid, and the reason given was that the day after Thanksgiving replaced it).
When I was a kid we had school on Election Day exactly one time, I think in first or second grade. It was a logistical disaster because so many school cafeterias are used as polling places. So they told us all we had to be absolutely silent while eating lunch that day. That didn't work out very well, and the voting machines interfered with the way the line formed for kids lining up to buy lunch (which in turn resulted in noise when the cafeteria lady had to keep yelling instructions to line up in a different way from normal). It must have been a problem at other schools as well because from then on, Election Day was always a "teacher workday" on which kids had the day off.
We never had Lincoln's Birthday as a holiday. But then, you wouldn't have expected to when you grew up in Virginia.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 23, 2025, 08:36:31 AMI remember as a child when Columbus Day, Election Day, and even Veterans Day were holidays given off from school and work.
Even Lincoln's Birthday was a day off February 12.
I'm not aware of anyplace other than Illinois having Lincoln's birthday as a holiday.
Our school district folds Columbus Day into their fall break.
Election Day has always been a day off for students because the schools are used as polling places. The last few years, they've switched from being off to having an e-learning day.
Lincoln's Birthday was given to MLK Day in January. I believe it was Jimmy Carter who decided to combine Lincoln and Washington together and create a special day to honor the slain civil rights leader.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 23, 2025, 09:34:03 AMLincoln's Birthday was given to MLK Day in January. I believe it was Jimmy Carter who decided to combine Lincoln and Washington together and create a special day to honor the slain civil rights leader.
Reagan signed the bill into law in 1983.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 04:05:39 PMRight. This is cool and all, but this isn't evidence for "strong" growth.
I didn't intend it to be evidence.
But the study itself is evidence.
With this job, I used to have the first Monday in February off for "Lincoln's birthday", along with Columbus Day. These were recently replaced with "floating holidays". Considering how my holidays we do have (New Year's Day, MLK Day, Presidents' Day, Good Friday, Memorial Day, Juneteenth, July 4th, Labor Day, Election Day in even years, Veterans' Day, half of Christmas Eve, and Christmas Day) it's not that a big deal. Most of the time we'll get off for the rest of Christmas Eve. Sometimes something will pop up, like getting Friday, July 5th off last year (and last minute).
My city trash/recycling collection gets bumped around if there's a holiday, and they don't always observe the same holidays that we at the county do. So I have to check the calendar from time to time on that. (Sometimes we wind up with a Saturday pickup to make up for Friday being a holiday).
When I worked at Chrysler we had Veteran's Day off (amongst our 15-17 days). But it was celebrated on the Friday closest to Deer Season Opening Day.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 09:15:33 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:02:00 PMRegardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.
Tell that to all the stores that are closed.
You mean the stores that
voluntarily closed? If their closure was paralyzing, then they'd have stayed open.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 22, 2025, 09:19:59 PMIt wasn't that long ago that a lot of major retail stores were closed on Easter. I'm kind of surprised there has been a retreat by some back towards being closed again.
Heck, I'm only 43 years old and, when I was a kid, the grocery store was closed early on Saturday and was closed entirely on Sunday—every week.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2025, 12:38:18 AMQuote from: CoreySamson on April 22, 2025, 09:35:27 PMWell, if stores are closed for a religious holiday, if anything it gives people who don't celebrate a day to take off work and rest. I don't think I (as a Christian) would complain if I were working in India and had to take off work for Holi, even if I didn't care at all about the holiday. Rest is good for everyone.
Day off of work for resting...good.
Day that you don't get paid when you otherwise would...bad.
Only if it's unexpected. If you hire on for a job that has Easter off unpaid every year, then how is it bad when Easter comes along and you have it off unpaid? It's part of the work scheduled you hired on for.
At my company, the field techs are contractors that make piecework. If they don't have a route, then they don't earn anything, and how much they earn depends on exactly what work they do at each job. And yet, in my experience, if the MSO demands that we run routes on a holiday, most guys don't want to do it: they'd rather take the holiday off unpaid. Only a couple would prefer to work it.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 23, 2025, 07:37:29 AMI, in turn, had a Jewish colleague who liked to go into the office on Christmas because he said it was the quietest day of the year there and he could get a lot done without interruption.
The office staff at my company don't come in on the day after Thanksgiving. But, if I don't do a certain set of my daily tasks by midday every Friday, then payment to our company is delayed by a week. If I were to take both Thursday and Friday off with no one to cover me, then two whole days' worth of our routes would go unpaid to us till a week late. So they allow me to come in, get done what I need to get done, and then go home. I can play whatever music I like, at whatever volume I like, wear shorts and flip flops if I want to, yeah, it's great.
Quote from: elsmere241 on April 23, 2025, 10:43:19 AMMy city trash/recycling collection gets bumped around if there's a holiday, and they don't always observe the same holidays that we at the county do. So I have to check the calendar from time to time on that. (Sometimes we wind up with a Saturday pickup to make up for Friday being a holiday).
Same here. And I don't even bother checking the calendar. If they don't pick up on the trash on a certain day because of some holiday, then I just leave it out at the curb till the following day. No big deal.
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2025, 11:08:10 AMSame here. And I don't even bother checking the calendar. If they don't pick up on the trash on a certain day because of some holiday, then I just leave it out at the curb till the following day. No big deal.
I do the same. Similarly, my recycling pickup is every other week, but I often forget which week it is. So, instead of being a grownup and looking at their website, I just put out the trash and recycling every week and just bring back the recycling if it's an off week.
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2025, 11:08:10 AMQuote from: elsmere241 on April 23, 2025, 10:43:19 AMMy city trash/recycling collection gets bumped around if there's a holiday, and they don't always observe the same holidays that we at the county do. So I have to check the calendar from time to time on that. (Sometimes we wind up with a Saturday pickup to make up for Friday being a holiday).
Same here. And I don't even bother checking the calendar. If they don't pick up on the trash on a certain day because of some holiday, then I just leave it out at the curb till the following day. No big deal.
Except with us, sometimes it's a day early.
For most of the time I was in Poland in June 1999, Pope JP2 was visiting the country. During his time in Poland, major cities banned the sale of alcohol (presumably to maintain public order during his visit). Talk about paralyzing a nation! :-D
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2025, 11:08:10 AMOnly if it's unexpected. If you hire on for a job that has Easter off unpaid every year, then how is it bad when Easter comes along and you have it off unpaid? It's part of the work scheduled you hired on for.
Being short hours that you can't make up is always bad.
Unless you have enough money that the amount of your paycheck is immaterial, I guess.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2025, 12:33:17 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 23, 2025, 11:08:10 AMOnly if it's unexpected. If you hire on for a job that has Easter off unpaid every year, then how is it bad when Easter comes along and you have it off unpaid? It's part of the work scheduled you hired on for.
Being short hours that you can't make up is always bad.
How are you short hours for hours you never have anyway under terms of employment from the get-go?
Try Australia, where from Friday to Monday good luck finding anything open. However, I think long Easter weekend serves the same purpose in Australia today that the long Thanksgiving weekend does in the States.
To add to the closure datapoint, I was in the Bay Area over the weekend and stopped in Fairfield to get basic groceries from Target on Sunday, and it was closed.
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2025, 11:08:10 AMHeck, I'm only 43 years old and, when I was a kid, the grocery store was closed early on Saturday and was closed entirely on Sunday—every week.
I was thinking about this. In the 80s in Texas, sales other than food and fuel weren't allowed on Sundays. I remember that only food stores, gas stations, and restaurants were open. Grocery stores that had things like clothing, tools, or hardware couldn't sell them on Sunday. I don't remember when that changed, but I remembering being.
I went to look up the laws, since I recently found that the Texas Legislative Reference Library has vast amounts of old statutes available, and I was surprised. Some time back it was discussed on here that Texas car dealers can operate on Saturday or Sunday, but not both. (I don't know if this is still the case). I remember commercials for a dealer advertising that they were closed Saturday and open Sunday. On that day of the week they have a monopoly. I was surprised to learn that in the olden days, this, not strictly a Sunday restriction, was the rule for non-food items.
In the 1984 Texas Civil Statutes, Article 9001, it is declared:
Art. 9001. Sale of Goods on Both the Two Consecutive Days of Saturday and Sunday
Prohibition of Sales; Items; Misdemeanor
Sec. 1. Any person, on both the two (2) consecutive days of Saturday and Sunday, who sells or offers for sale or shall compel, force or oblige his employees to sell any clothing; clothing accessories; wearing apparel; footwear; headwear; home, business, office or outdoor furniture; kitchenware; kitchen utensils; china; home appliances; stoves; refrigerators; air conditioners; electric fans; radios; television sets; washing machines; driers; cameras; hardware; tools, excluding non-power driver hand tools; jewelry; precious or semi-precious stones; silverware; watches; clocks; luggage; motor vehicles; musical instruments; recordings; toys, excluding items customarily sold as novelties and souvenirs; mattresses; bed coverings; household linens; floor coverings; lamps; draperies; blinds; curtains; mirrors; lawn mowers or cloth piece goods shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. Each separate sale shall constitute a separate offense.
I don't know how common this knowledge was. My childhood understanding was that sales were restricted on Sunday, and most adults don't know a lot about the nuances of the law. I'm just now finding out about it four decades later.
Edit - In the earlier full statute publication in 1948, there was a section on Sunday Laws, labelled that way in the section title. By 1974, the Saturday or Sunday restriction was in place. I have more information about the evolution of that law. A 1961 bill says (I can't copy the text, so I have to type it and hopefully won't mess up): Nothing in this Act shall apply to any person who conscientiously believes in and uniformly observes another day of the week as the Sabbath and who does not personally or through others, conduct or engage in his business on that day.
This makes room for Jewish and seventh-day Christian groups to follow their beliefs without losing business on Sundays, too.
A 1967 bill analysis states that it was due to objections by religious groups that "the Saturday or Sunday approach was conceived." It was in these years that the rules on weekends changed. The analysis also mentions a Supreme Court case finding that Sunday laws were secular, not religious, and therefore not unconstitutional. The court held that "it is within a state's power to regulate the sale of specific merchandise and thereby provide a day of rest." (Quote from the analysis, not the court ruling)
^^ Blue laws. Based on saying you should be in church instead of shopping.
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2025, 11:08:10 AMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 09:15:33 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:02:00 PMRegardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.
Tell that to all the stores that are closed.
You mean the stores that voluntarily closed? If their closure was paralyzing, then they'd have stayed open.
In which universe are laws that prevent certain places from being open on those days "voluntary closures"?
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 23, 2025, 05:17:32 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 23, 2025, 11:08:10 AMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 22, 2025, 09:15:33 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 22, 2025, 09:02:00 PMRegardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.
Tell that to all the stores that are closed.
You mean the stores that voluntarily closed? If their closure was paralyzing, then they'd have stayed open.
In which universe are laws that prevent certain places from being open on those days "voluntary closures"?
Bible Belt
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 23, 2025, 05:17:32 PMIn which universe are laws that prevent certain places from being open on those days "voluntary closures"?
In which universe are stores prohibited by law from being open on Easter specifically?
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2025, 05:55:45 PMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 23, 2025, 05:17:32 PMIn which universe are laws that prevent certain places from being open on those days "voluntary closures"?
In which universe are stores prohibited by law from being open on Easter specifically?
This weird universe known as Canada. It may have changed, though I do remember it being a thing.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 23, 2025, 06:13:04 PMThis weird universe known as Canada. It may have changed, though I do remember it being a thing.
Nope, you're right. I'm looking at it now.
Here, for example, is Québec: https://www.legisquebec.gouv.qc.ca/fr/document/lc/h-2.1
I also looked at Ontario's law, and it's very similar.
Back in the day, Indiana wouldn't let you buy alcohol on Sunday. Except for the Sunday of the Indy 500.
Quote from: wxfree on April 23, 2025, 02:37:48 PMI was surprised. Some time back it was discussed on here that Texas car dealers can operate on Saturday or Sunday, but not both. (I don't know if this is still the case). I remember commercials for a dealer advertising that they were closed Saturday and open Sunday. On that day of the week they have a monopoly. I was surprised to learn that in the olden days, this, not strictly a Sunday restriction, was the rule for non-food items.
It's still the case in Texas. I think the law was amended for dealership principals whom observe the Sabbath on Saturdays (whether out of religious observance, convenience, or competitive purposes).
In New Jersey, they cannot sell motor vehicles on Sundays, though vehicle repair facilities may perform/sell services and parts on both Saturdays and Sundays. So dealerships have to "rope off" the sales departments from customers.
I'm sure there's others but many states do not have such laws; however, most parts and service shops are closed on Sundays even in absence of such laws. You might find it in the larger stores in bigger cities, because the smaller stores can't justify the additional labor along with the offsetting work schedules with low profit-margin half-days. In some smaller towns, the dealers' service and parts departments may be closed all weekend.
Quote from: Rothman on April 23, 2025, 12:53:45 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2025, 12:33:17 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 23, 2025, 11:08:10 AMOnly if it's unexpected. If you hire on for a job that has Easter off unpaid every year, then how is it bad when Easter comes along and you have it off unpaid? It's part of the work scheduled you hired on for.
Being short hours that you can't make up is always bad.
How are you short hours for hours you never have anyway under terms of employment from the get-go?
Having your weekly pay be 85.714285714285714286% of what it normally is, for reasons you can't do anything about, is always bad.
(Look, I did real math. Be happy.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 24, 2025, 06:33:41 AMQuote from: Rothman on April 23, 2025, 12:53:45 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2025, 12:33:17 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 23, 2025, 11:08:10 AMOnly if it's unexpected. If you hire on for a job that has Easter off unpaid every year, then how is it bad when Easter comes along and you have it off unpaid? It's part of the work scheduled you hired on for.
Being short hours that you can't make up is always bad.
How are you short hours for hours you never have anyway under terms of employment from the get-go?
Having your weekly pay be 85.714285714285714286% of what it normally is, for reasons you can't do anything about, is always bad.
(Look, I did real math. Be happy.)
But that's also assuming every employer who was closed Easter just cut those hours from Sunday workers. A lot of name brand companies have mandatory minimums for Full Time and Part Time status employees.
Lowe's for example they have a mandatory minimum of 35 hours for Full Time staff. Likely that normally scheduled Sunday shift was just moved to another day.
To be clear, I don't want to defend the likes of Lowe's. They almost got the entire retail industry in trouble during the Obama Administration when they were assigning employees making 24k as exempt salaried staff. Nobody is more surprised than me that they did an employee centric move by closing on Easter.
If they provide holiday pay or move the shift to a different day to make up the hours, I don't have an issue with that. I've just been in the position of having checks short due to the business being closed due to a holiday, and it sucks.
Although "we take your normal day off and move it to Easter" isn't really much of a holiday.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 24, 2025, 08:59:25 AMIf they provide holiday pay or move the shift to a different day to make up the hours, I don't have an issue with that. I've just been in the position of having checks short due to the business being closed due to a holiday, and it sucks.
Although "we take your normal day off and move it to Easter" isn't really much of a holiday.
On that we agree, but there are many reasons I'm not going back to real world Retail managment any time soon (likely never).
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 24, 2025, 08:59:25 AMI've just been in the position of having checks short due to the business being closed due to a holiday, and it sucks.
And you didn't know ahead of time that that would be the case, to plan accordingly?
Quote from: kphoger on April 24, 2025, 11:26:58 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 24, 2025, 08:59:25 AMI've just been in the position of having checks short due to the business being closed due to a holiday, and it sucks.
And you didn't know ahead of time that that would be the case, to plan accordingly?
Plan how? Landlords and utilities don't accept plans as a form of payment, and most people can't pull $100 out of thin air if their employers don't let them work.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 24, 2025, 11:58:13 AMPlan how?
In your budget, put a smaller amount for that paycheck.
Put a few bucks aside each paycheck leading up to it.
I don't know, normal stuff like that?
Quote from: kphoger on April 24, 2025, 12:03:46 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 24, 2025, 11:58:13 AMPlan how?
In your budget, put a smaller amount for that paycheck.
Put a few bucks aside each paycheck leading up to it.
I don't know, normal stuff like that?
You assume there are bucks to put aside—the job that happened with was paying me $5.15 an hour.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 24, 2025, 12:07:41 PMYou assume there are bucks to put aside—the job that happened with was paying me $5.15 an hour.
My first job paid $5.15 an hour too. I was hired as a full-time employee, but 'full time' only meant 35-40 hours in that state, which the employer explained up front when I was hired. I don't think I ever got 40 hours in a week. But I also wouldn't say I was 'short hours' either, because they were paying me exactly what they said they would.
Similarly, at your $5.15 an hour job, they didn't short you any hours, because they paid you for exactly the hours you hired on to work—unless, perhaps, that day being an unpaid holiday was a spur-of-the-moment decision on their part.
"Not enough money" is still "not enough money", no matter what sort of justifications people who like employers come up with to cover for them.
Jumping in to an earlier discussion: the Pew Research Center recently updated their Religious Landscape Study (https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/region/united-states/?selectedYear=2024) of the U.S., which had 35,000 respondents.
For the U.S. as a whole, the share of Catholic respondents was 19% in 2023/24 compared to 21% in 2014.
Study also shows a modest gain in unaffiliated folks nationally. In the Seattle area, it's now 44% unaffiliated and 44% Christian.
For Scott & Kyle, an example that hit hard for me earlier in life. When I was waiting tables, our restaurant was only closed two days a year - Thanksgiving and Christmas. Obviously Thanksgiving is always a Thursday, but Christmas can be any day of the week. I had Friday night regulars who would come in and tip me $100 every week. When Christmas fell on a Friday, I missed out on that cash as well as the tips that I would normally earn on a Friday. I could pick up another shift I wasn't scheduled, but I had Sunday and Monday nights off because they were the slowest, and so I'd be making ~$150-$200 less because of the day of the week that the holiday fell. I'm well aware I could have planned for it ahead of time, but 20's Chris was a little different animal than 30's and 40's Chris.