Exit Gore Signage

[deathtopumpkins]

Looks like something Maryland would do. I know they use different arrows for different types of ramps, like particularly sharp ones get a horizontal arrow.

That should be done everywhere, IMO.  Actually, I thought the MUTCD said something to this effect, at least regarding exit direction signs.

Maybe it does - I don't know off the top of my head. Maryland's just the only place I've seen it done with any regularity.

[SignBridge]

You're right ..........The 2009 MUTCD Sec. 2E.37-03 states that the gore sign arrow should be aligned to approximate the angle of departure. I think that should also apply to the arrow on the preceding exit direction sign, but it doesn't. Sec. 2E.36-07-A requires only a diagonally upward-pointing directional arrow. Oh well.............

[vtk]

I'm thinking of OH 15 in Findlay, eastbound, just beyond the split from I-75.  There's a really tight exit for a road whose name I forget, but it's old US 25 -- so tight, it's basically like a right-in-right-out driveway.  Either the exit direction sign or the gore sign has a horizontal arrow, IIRC.  I can't remember seeing anything but "standard" arrow angles anywhere else for exit direction or exit gore signs.

[jonah]

Stemming from a recent discussion in the Clearview thread about exit gore signs, I got to drawing exit gore signs based on California spec and FHWA spec.  California's gore signs (G84-2 and G84-3) are significantly narrower than those used in other states and I suspect the reason has to do with "lateral offsets".  The G84-2 sign is basically the pre-exit numbering gore point sign (G84) with the arrow moved to one side to accommodate the 1 or 2 digit exit number.  The G84-3 sign for 3 and 4 digit exit numbers is narrower than the G84-2 sign and the exit number and arrow are stacked one on top of the other.  I suspect that because the new gore point signs were supposed to use the existing wood post, the lateral offset issue became a major factor when Caltrans designed their new exit number gore point signs.  Here are the signs I drew and these are proportionally correct...

On my last visit to Las Vegas, I decided to use CA-99 to CA-152 to return to San Jose instead of cutting over to I-5.  While driving through Fresno I spotted an FHWA-style 3-digit exit gore sign for Exit 133/CA-180 East.  I also spotted a similar sign at Exit 166/CA-152 West north of Madera.  I thought these were sign goofs by an out of state contractor until I came across project plans for CA-41 to rehab the gore points and add maintenance vehicle pullouts (project 06-0E3104).  The signing plans for this project includes the installation of new FHWA-style gore point signs.  As part of the reconstruction of the gore points, the gore signs have been moved back to provide the correct lateral offset.  What's odd is the sign code for the new gore point sign is still G84-2(CA) even though 3 and 4 digit exit numbers are supposed to use the G84-3(CA) sign.

Whether this means Caltrans is going to adopt the FHWA gore signs remains to be seen.  I've been scouring the currently advertised projects on the Caltrans' website and have yet to see the FHWA-style gore signs show up on any other project.  It's entirely possible District 6 is testing the FHWA-style gore signs to help Caltrans make a decision to use them statewide.

Hello.  Caltrans District 6, as a pilot project, is using the federal exit gore sign to improve the safety for maintenance workers.  As the sign is larger than the California standard exit gore sign on a single post, it is placed about 250 feet downstream of the gore point, where it is less likely to be struck by a vehicle cutting across the gore point.  At least one other district will also be trying the larger two-post gore signs.

[vtk]

I've recently noticed that ODOT's recently-installed gore signs in District 6 are all the narrower style, but what I think is strange is the mounting.  The posts they're mounted on are forked like old-fashioned football goalposts, with the horizontal member clearly visible a few inches below the bottom edge of the sign.  It just seems to me that the installation would be a lot more elegant if the horizontal member were high enough to be behind the sign.

[SignBridge]

Jonah, 250 ft. downstream? Did you maybe mean 25 feet?

[jonah]

Actually, 250 feet.  The installation of the standard California single-post exit gore sign is at the 23 foot point between the mainline and the off-ramp.  That's where the asphalt paving ends.  Now there is typically another 150 feet of stamped concrete, and the two-post gore sign is placed 100 feet beyond that.  I would be interested in knowing what the convention is in other states as to where to place the exit gore sign.  I've seen pictures of their installations, but no plans or guidance that shows where they go.

[vdeane]

It's not that your placement is strange, it's that your ramp geometry is strange.  Other states don't have their exit ramps continue nearly parallel to the freeway for 1/4 mile.

[J N Winkler]

Actually, 250 feet is a hair under 1/20 of a mile (1 mile = 5280 feet), and is fairly small compared to the typical maximum legibility distance of a freeway guide sign (16" uppercase, 12" lowercase) under favorable conditions--usually around 800 feet or so.

[myosh_tino]

It's not that your placement is strange, it's that your ramp geometry is strange.  Other states don't have their exit ramps continue nearly parallel to the freeway for 1/4 mile.

Jonah is right.  Here is a clipping I extracted from Caltrans project 06-0e3104 which shows the placement of the new FHWA exit gore signs in the gore points...



According to the diagram above, the California-standard gore point signs are placed 270 ft from where the white lines diverge.  The new FHWA-standard signs are to be placed 520 ft from where the white lines diverge, 250 ft behind the existing sign.

[vdeane]

Is NY just doing it wrong then?  We place our gore signs right after the pavement ends no matter what the distance is from the white lines diverging.  In CA it just happens that the ramp has yet to diverge from the main road at this point which is VERY unusual.

[myosh_tino]

Is NY just doing it wrong then?  We place our gore signs right after the pavement ends no matter what the distance is from the white lines diverging.  In CA it just happens that the ramp has yet to diverge from the main road at this point which is VERY unusual.

I know that Caltrans has very strict rules/guidelines regarding lateral offsets and sign placements.  I am not sure if the national MUTCD addresses lateral offsets when placing signs like the exit gore sign but if the MUTCD does not address this issue and New York does not address it in its supplement (or state MUTCD), then New York is not "doing it wrong".

[KEK Inc.]

No!  I quite like Caltrans style in exit gore signage.  It seems much more uniform.  I always thought the FHWA standard was obnoxious, even though it may be more legible due to larger numerals.

Edited for improper markup.

[J N Winkler]

I know that Caltrans has very strict rules/guidelines regarding lateral offsets and sign placements.  I am not sure if the national MUTCD addresses lateral offsets when placing signs like the exit gore sign but if the MUTCD does not address this issue and New York does not address it in its supplement (or state MUTCD), then New York is not "doing it wrong".

The MUTCD addresses lateral sign placement (in Chapter 2A, if memory serves), but it is hardly the sole authority on this point--there are AASHTO guidelines which require, among other things, that a sign must be protected by guardrail or installed on frangible supports if it is within the clear zone (which, for freeways, is 30' out from the edge of the traveled way).  Since gore signs are typically installed within the clear zone, this is why they nearly always have breakaway supports.

I wonder if part of the motivation for Caltrans' experiment with vanilla MUTCD gore signs is to afford maintenance crews a better standard of protection from traffic without having to close the ramp.

[vtk]

In Columbus, EB I-270's new Exit 26 geometry features an excessively long diverge taper, after which the ramp unnecessarily and without a smooth curve becomes parallel with the mainline again, before finally curving away from the freeway.  (Where the exit splits into north and south forks, it does the same thing again.  It's a distinct lack of elegance, in my opinion.)  There was originally a narrow-style exit gore sign placed ridiculously far back from the theoretical gore, much like the California situations described upthread.  I found that, while legible from a distance, the sign didn't convey sufficient guidance because it was seemingly nowhere near the exit to which it belonged.  Anyway, it has recently been replaced by a traditional (2-post) style gore sign much closer to the theoretical gore, which means it now stands in the middle of a lot of pavement. 

On an unrelated but still on-topic note, I recently observed a bridge-mounted exit gore sign hanging over I-71 NB in metro Cincinnati.

[Central Avenue]

On an unrelated but still on-topic note, I recently observed a bridge-mounted exit gore sign hanging over I-71 NB in metro Cincinnati.

I saw that one a few months ago, but I didn't manage to get a photo.

I can't help but think it totally defeats the purpose of having a gore sign.

[vtk]

On an unrelated but still on-topic note, I recently observed a bridge-mounted exit gore sign hanging over I-71 NB in metro Cincinnati.

I saw that one a few months ago, but I didn't manage to get a photo.

I can't help but think it totally defeats the purpose of having a gore sign.

Maybe if they hung it much lower, and hinged so it would swing back into place after being struck by errant vehicles...

[formulanone]

Found a very large exit gore sign on US 15/105 just south of I-85 in Durham, NC.



(Map Link)

[Android]

Hell, that's not a gore, it's more like a median! 

[Ian]

Found a very large exit gore sign on US 15/105 just south of I-85 in Durham, NC.

North Carolina: where the exit gore signs are larger than the actual BGS's!

[Alps]

Garden State Parkway in NJ will have something similar for Exits 88 C-B-A. Current theory is to put the arrow next to the 88 to try to reduce the width. (My earliest mockup had "88C-" "B-A /")

[OracleUsr]

Found a very large exit gore sign on US 15/105 just south of I-85 in Durham, NC.

North Carolina: where the exit gore signs are larger than the actual BGS's!

Yeah, but the numbers on the newer gore signs look like Florida's...

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.139259772790158.27133.100001184090862&type=1&l=e04e9633fc

(can't find the link directly to the photo)

Look at the first 540 picture.  That says it all.

[formulanone]

Look at the first 540 picture.  That says it all.

I remember seeing that one on the drive back to RDU on I-40...figured that has to be one of the tallest BGS I've ever seen.

[OracleUsr]

The northbound advance guide signage for I-395 on I-95 in Bangor, ME, gives that sign some serious competition, though

[thenetwork]

Look at the first 540 picture.  That says it all.

I remember seeing that one on the drive back to RDU on I-40...figured that has to be one of the tallest BGS I've ever seen.

And I always thought that this BGS on I-90 in Buffalo was overkill:

http://g.co/maps/hv8x7