Only in this state....

[cpzilliacus]

But I think that obsessively signing on- and off-ramps to and from freeways (as Caltrans does) are one way to deter (not prevent) wrong-way incursions (and the resulting head-on and frequently fatal wrecks).

I understand where you're coming from with that statement, but "obsessively signing" IMO, is a very dangerous term.

Your point is correct.  How about consistently signing?  Consistency is usually considered a good thing when it comes to traffic control devices, right?

The more over-used a sign becomes, the quicker drivers will learn to "tune it out" and the less overall meaning it will have. It's a problem/pet-peeve of mine I see happening with certain fellow designers and the PED XING assembly. The intention of that assembly was to warn of unexpected and/or high volume crossings, not every crosswalk you encounter in an urban area. It also increases the competition with other signs for a driver's attention (the span of which seems to be getting shorter and shorter with each passing year and new in-car tech gadget).

I actually agree with you.  In most cases, the pavement markings and other signs (you speak of the pavement-mounted fiberglass or plastic signs, right?) should be enough (and as I understand it, pavement markings without the signs may be enough, though most places I have been seem to prefer signs and markings).

But the FREEWAY ENTRANCE assembly usually benefits drivers that do not know an area so well.  So in my opinion, it is O.K. if the regular users ignore them - the regulars are not the segment of the driving population I want to inform and guide with those assemblies.

That is why I am more in-favor of selective use of the FREEWAY ENTRANCE assembly.

I respectfully disagree, for reasons stated above.

[kphoger]

...Freeway Entrance...

Freeway Entrance signs help drivers identify the freeway entrance, especially in situations with unusual ramp configurations, frontage roads, nearby business entrances or cross streets, etc.  I think everyone can agree that the signs are useful in some situations, right?  I've even been in rural situations where I can't easily tell which turn is the freeway entrance, and signs would have helped.  One example that jumps to mind is approaching US-71 along SSR-N near Carthage, MO; the first left right after the junction sign is not the freeway entrance, which is not obvious until you're right on top of it (and hopefully there isn't an impatient trucker behind you)–eastbound from SSR-M is even worse, but the GMSV isn't as clear.  So the question then becomes:  where would you draw the line?  I don't even know how I would answer that question.

Regarding the sign forest at freeway entrances, what signs do you speak of other than the one with prohibitions and maybe a few No Parking signs?

[hbelkins]

There are still cutouts outside incorporated cities...

Within the last 3 months I have observed the Gordonsville cutouts are still present, plus US 33 east of Harrisonburg, plus VA 208 at Spotsylvania CH.

Going back 6 months there were still some in Hillsville and Pearisburg, plus the lone 42 cutout in Churchville, plus Highland County still has some.

I know of other locations of cutouts not in incorp places but I haven't been by them in a year to see if they are still present (VA 18, VA 63, and VA 227, for example).

Someone asked about the 460 cutouts on I-85 ... they were there Dec 7.

Mapmikey

Where are the US 33 ones you mention? I drove the length of US 33 in Virginia a couple of months ago and didn't see any.

There are still cutouts in Big Stone Gap and in Highland County. Haven't been to Tazewell or Bluefield lately to know what's there and what isn't. There were also some WV 39 and WV 42 cutouts on their co-signed route when I drove it a few years ago.

[mgk920]

In Oklahoma, many entrance ramps to freeways are continuous and become exit only lanes for the next exit.  These are great because you have until the next exit to merge over, instead of having to worry about the entrance merge ramp ending before the exit lane begins.  Is this unique to Oklahoma or do other states use this setup?

It depends on the spacing between the interchanges. But yes, other states use this setup. There are a couple in the Madison, WI-area I can think of right off the bat. If the interchanges are less than half a mile apart, generally WisDOT will utilize a continuous lane.

WisDOT added some of those auxiliary lanes between interchanges on US 10/WI 441 and US 41(I-xx) here in the Appleton area over the past couple of years, too.

--------------------

As for those 'Texas U-turns', there is one directly in front of the Post Office at US 51 (Stoughton Rd)/Milwaukee St in Madison, WI.

http://goo.gl/maps/2fe6J
US 51 (Stoughton Rd) runs north-south, Milwaukee St east-west.  The 'U'-turn is under the bridge on the north side of Milwaukee St.

They're also 'S.O.P.' throughout metro Detroit, MI.

That is why I am more in-favor of selective use of the FREEWAY ENTRANCE assembly.

Howabout using my avatar (a German 'autobahn driving rules begin' sign) as an MUTCD standard 'freeway entrance/begins' sign design, with the same design with a red diagonal slash ('autobahn driving rules end') for the opposite?



Mike

[PurdueBill]

Only in Ohio, when ODOT is too cheap to create a new BGS to accommodate a route shield properly...
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=canton+ohio&hl=en&ll=40.827547,-81.398591&spn=0.001181,0.00327&sll=41.537302,-81.641199&sspn=0.001168,0.00327&hnear=Canton,+Stark,+Ohio&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=40.827547,-81.398591&panoid=XnpyUGtk10RCEI1PfYiipA&cbp=12,227.92,,0,0

Actually, the older signs for that exit had OH 687 inside the sign.  The newer signs have it external supposedly in the event that 687 is decommissioned so the shield can be easily removed without leaving blank space.

[cpzilliacus]

Howabout using my avatar (a German 'autobahn driving rules begin' sign) as an MUTCD standard 'freeway entrance/begins' sign design, with the same design with a red diagonal slash ('autobahn driving rules end') for the opposite?



Mike

I prefer green, otherwise a great idea.

Swedish National Transport Agency (I have posted these elsewhere on AAROADS):

Begin motorway (also means motorway entrance):


End motorway:


Begin "Super-2" highway ("Super-2" highways are relatively-speaking more common in Sweden and Finland than in the  U.S.):


End "Super-2:"

[Mapmikey]

Where are the US 33 ones you mention? I drove the length of US 33 in Virginia a couple of months ago and didn't see any.

There are still cutouts in Big Stone Gap and in Highland County. Haven't been to Tazewell or Bluefield lately to know what's there and what isn't. There were also some WV 39 and WV 42 cutouts on their co-signed route when I drove it a few years ago.

The US 33 cutout is at this intersection.  GMSV shows more than one here but only one was still there a month ago...

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Harrisonburg,+VA&hl=en&ll=38.369656,-78.773861&spn=0.000135,0.071497&sll=38.804821,-77.236966&sspn=2.735195,4.575806&oq=harrisonburg,+va&t=h&hnear=Harrisonburg,+Virginia&z=14&layer=c&cbll=38.369679,-78.77348&panoid=ex9xZcha4RgRv7Y-fvD9VA&cbp=12,313.9,,0,0

Also there are US 33 cutout shields on VA 231 NB approaching the circle and also at High St. as of a month ago.  Also some US 11 cutouts in Harrisonburg south of downtown.  Is the US 33 WB cutout at VA 42 gone?

Because the OP of the cutout question mentioned places where VDOT maintains roads, I left out other places I know still have some...

As of June 2012 there were still plenty of cutouts in Tazewell and North Tazewell (but not the US 61 shield) plus Staunton though I didn't go downtown.

Some (all?) VA 230-231 jct cutouts were removed in 2012.

The patched VA 91 cutout is not in GMSV which means I got a picture of it very close to when it was removed.

It has been >1 year since I've been to Bluefield, Haysi, Urbanna, Luray, The Plains, Falls Church, Alexandria so I don't know the status of those cutouts.

Mapmikey

[Takumi]

The Urbanna cutout was still there as of last April. Next time I head that way I'll try to remember to detour to see if it still is.

[agentsteel53]

any steel cutouts left, with the embossed border?  in towns or otherwise?

[hbelkins]

Is the US 33 WB cutout at VA 42 gone?

I didn't see it, and I was definitely on the lookout for cutouts in Harrisonburg.

[kphoger]

End "Super-2:"

I'd foresee that being misinterpreted by many drivers as "No Vehicles Allowed".

[DaBigE]

But I think that obsessively signing on- and off-ramps to and from freeways (as Caltrans does) are one way to deter (not prevent) wrong-way incursions (and the resulting head-on and frequently fatal wrecks).

I understand where you're coming from with that statement, but "obsessively signing" IMO, is a very dangerous term.

Your point is correct.  How about consistently signing?  Consistency is usually considered a good thing when it comes to traffic control devices, right?

I agree 100%.

I actually agree with you.  In most cases, the pavement markings and other signs (you speak of the pavement-mounted fiberglass or plastic signs, right?) should be enough (and as I understand it, pavement markings without the signs may be enough, though most places I have been seem to prefer signs and markings).

With regards to over-use, I was referring to the W11-2/W16-7P sign assembly; pavement stencils of a similar message are rare around these parts (usually epoxy, grooved in plastic tape, or grooved in thermoplastic around here). I have a couple photos of some examples of such installations (post for a different thread topic). As for signs and/or markings, while I haven't had a chance to look up the specific statute yet, I've been consistently told by WisDOT employees that [at least in the State of Wisconsin] pavement markings alone are not enforceable, with regards to specific lane designations. A sign must be posted in order for the lane use to be enforced.

Regarding the sign forest at freeway entrances, what signs do you speak of other than the one with prohibitions and maybe a few No Parking signs?

I was referring to the interchange overall, not just at the actual entrance. Aside from the signs you mentioned, I was including: route assemblies (worse the more multiplexed the highways are), Ped/Bike Xing, lane designation, service signs, ramp meter regulation/warning, etc. Many of those signs are placed multiple times for reinforcement.

[cpzilliacus]

End "Super-2:"

I'd foresee that being misinterpreted by many drivers as "No Vehicles Allowed".

The "End Super-2" sign above is not regulatory.  In the EU nations, those are usually white with a red border, or yellow with a red border:

That would be this (no vehicles, including bikes, allowed):


Or this (no motorized traffic allowed):


Or this (no motorized traffic with four or more wheels allowed):


None of those take the place of "DO NOT ENTER" (which never used in place of the above signs):

[vtk]

Only in Ohio, when ODOT is too cheap to create a new BGS to accommodate a route shield properly...
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.827547,-81.398591&spn=0.001181,0.00327&sll=41.537302,-81.641199&sspn=0.001168,0.00327&hnear=Canton,+Stark,+Ohio&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=40.827547,-81.398591&panoid=XnpyUGtk10RCEI1PfYiipA&cbp=12,227.92,,0,0

This also happened at I-90 @ E.72nd St (OH-283) in Cleveland and I-71@ Polaris Parkway (OH-750) in Columbus, although I believe the latter has been fixed over the years due to sign upgrades.

Fixed the link for you; removed search query string to make it more mobile-friendly. 

Anyway, I call those 'afterthought panels' and they are also used for destinations and hospital / airport icons.  Although when they do it with just a route marker or icon, they usually just use an independent-mount version rather than put the feature on a little green panel.

What's annoying is when brand-new signs immediately get afterthought panels.  Can't they do a more thorough review of what needs to go on the signs before they are approved and fabricated?

PS – the OH 750 thing was fixed because the whole interchange was expanded and reconfigured.

[NJRoadfan]

New Jersey, at one time, did not allow 2 lane roads to be posted at 55 mph, and had the same rule as Delaware.  I believe that the Garden State, though, only let two 2 lane highways to have the 55 mph: NJ 54 and NJ 72.

Other 2 lane, 55 mph'ers in NJ:

NJ 70 has a 55 mph (which was raised from 50 mph several years ago), and Cape May County Route 625 has a mile or so stretch of 55 mph before entering Sea Isle City.

I'm going to argue US 130 South has a 1/2 mile, 55 mph stretch below the Commodore Barry Bridge after the roadway drops the 2nd lane.  I would say it's due to a sign that went missing a few years ago...but then again, the entire sign assembly has been missing for a few years now with seemingly no attempt to reinstall it.

CR-539 in southern Ocean County is signed 55mph.

[agentsteel53]

that makes me wonder - what's the highest speed limit on a county route in the US?  I'm guessing Texas has some 70 or 75 somewhere, but I don't think I've ever seen even a 65. 

[Alps]

that makes me wonder - what's the highest speed limit on a county route in the US?  I'm guessing Texas has some 70 or 75 somewhere, but I don't think I've ever seen even a 65. 

95. Or do you mean "legal."

[roadman65]

I have one that I have seen.  Kansas, has at its city limits in rural areas have the typical "X" CITY LIMIT signs with the city's reduced speed limit attached to its morings as well as in the other direction directly across from it a mileage sign with two control points leaving the city and the upgraded rural speed limit attached to one of its posts. 

I have not seen other states practice this so far. 

[cpzilliacus]

...Freeway Entrance...

Freeway Entrance signs help drivers identify the freeway entrance, especially in situations with unusual ramp configurations, frontage roads, nearby business entrances or cross streets, etc.

Absolutely correct.  Perhaps California has more than its share of "unusual" entrance ramps onto its freeway network (some examples in L.A. County that I am personally familiar with include this, this, this, this and this).

And once we have so many of those "nonstandard" freeway entrances, perhaps it then becomes prudent to post them everywhere, even at relatively conventional interchanges like this.

I think everyone can agree that the signs are useful in some situations, right?  I've even been in rural situations where I can't easily tell which turn is the freeway entrance, and signs would have helped.  One example that jumps to mind is approaching US-71 along SSR-N near Carthage, MO; the first left right after the junction sign is not the freeway entrance, which is not obvious until you're right on top of it (and hopefully there isn't an impatient trucker behind you)–eastbound from SSR-M is even worse, but the GMSV isn't as clear.  So the question then becomes:  where would you draw the line?  I don't even know how I would answer that question.

Your example is a good one - FREEWAY ENTRANCE assemblies there would really help some drivers - I see lots of potential for confusion and wrong-way entry there, even though it is a simple diamond interchange.

Here is an example in Maryland that could use such signage (this interchange pre-dates the Interstate system, even though it is on "secret" I-595 (generally known as U.S. 50/U.S. 301)).  I have seen a few "near miss" wrong-way entries here.  Some miles west of that location, along U.S. 50, is this strange and counterintuitive entrance onto eastbound U.S. 50 (motorists have to turn left (west) in order to make (what would normally be) a "right turn" onto the freeway).

Regarding the sign forest at freeway entrances, what signs do you speak of other than the one with prohibitions and maybe a few No Parking signs?

Sign forests near freeway entrances do not bother me at all.

[cpzilliacus]

[snipped]

I actually agree with you.  In most cases, the pavement markings and other signs (you speak of the pavement-mounted fiberglass or plastic signs, right?) should be enough (and as I understand it, pavement markings without the signs may be enough, though most places I have been seem to prefer signs and markings).

With regards to over-use, I was referring to the W11-2/W16-7P sign assembly; pavement stencils of a similar message are rare around these parts (usually epoxy, grooved in plastic tape, or grooved in thermoplastic around here). I have a couple photos of some examples of such installations (post for a different thread topic). As for signs and/or markings, while I haven't had a chance to look up the specific statute yet, I've been consistently told by WisDOT employees that [at least in the State of Wisconsin] pavement markings alone are not enforceable, with regards to specific lane designations. A sign must be posted in order for the lane use to be enforced.

I think that's the law in Maryland as well. Generally, I see stenciled in markings (with no signs) on private roads and streets, where the owner does not have a clue about traffic control and traffic control devices.

Regarding the sign forest at freeway entrances, what signs do you speak of other than the one with prohibitions and maybe a few No Parking signs?

I was referring to the interchange overall, not just at the actual entrance. Aside from the signs you mentioned, I was including: route assemblies (worse the more multiplexed the highways are), Ped/Bike Xing, lane designation, service signs, ramp meter regulation/warning, etc. Many of those signs are placed multiple times for reinforcement.

[Emphasis added to your words above]

I think that is an important point - again, especially for people not familiar with the freeway network.  And FREEWAY ENTRANCE signs are the "last chance" reinforcement to make sure that drivers are going where they want need to go?

[dgolub]

Only in New Jersey: County routes numbered on a statewide basis (CR 501, etc.)

And Iowa, and Florida, and California.

I'm familiar with Iowa's grid system for numbering county highways.  Are there numbering systems for the other states mentioned?

Connecticut has a unique secret state route system that actually works in some instances by county. 

400's: Special service roads statewide (ie. Bradley Airport connector extension, Hammonasset connector)
500's: Minor state roads in Hartford & Tolland counties
600's: Minor state roads in Windham, Middlesex and New London counties
700's: Minor state roads in New Haven county
800's: Minor state roads in Farifield and Litchfield counties
900's: Very short connector roads less than 1 mile (statewide)

New York has something sort of similar in that the middle digit of a reference route indicates which region it's in.

[NE2]

that makes me wonder - what's the highest speed limit on a county route in the US?  I'm guessing Texas has some 70 or 75 somewhere, but I don't think I've ever seen even a 65. 

Wyoming is default 65: http://www.dot.state.wy.us/wydot/news_info/news_releases?template=tpl.newsDetail&newsID=937

[Eth]

Also, no longer the case in Georgia for signs erected since roughly 2008 (which is still a small minority of them right now); they've switched over to "normal" right- or left-aligned non-full-width tabs.  Phased out at the same time, an actual Georgia exclusive: use of all-Series D legend on BGSes.

Several of the "normal" exit tabs on I-20 east near the Alabama line and I-85 northeast of Atlanta. It appears that the tabs are used now to accommodate the new "LEFT EXIT" sign specifications required by the MUTCD revision. Is that the case?

I looked through GDOT's signing manual and couldn't come to a conclusion on that (in all of the numerous diagrams in there, left exits are never mentioned).

[mgk920]

Howabout using my avatar (a German 'autobahn driving rules begin' sign) as an MUTCD standard 'freeway entrance/begins' sign design, with the same design with a red diagonal slash ('autobahn driving rules end') for the opposite?



Mike

I prefer green, otherwise a great idea.

Swedish National Transport Agency (I have posted these elsewhere on AAROADS):

Begin motorway (also means motorway entrance):


End motorway:


Begin "Super-2" highway ("Super-2" highways are relatively-speaking more common in Sweden and Finland than in the  U.S.):


End "Super-2:"

The latter two images mean 'begin/end *expressway* (like USA 'expressways' and can be two or more lanes, divided or undivided) and its driving rules'.  Some countries require special vehicle stickers to be able to legally use both freeways/motorways and expressways and those signs are regulatory in that manner.

Mike

[bugo]

that makes me wonder - what's the highest speed limit on a county route in the US?  I'm guessing Texas has some 70 or 75 somewhere, but I don't think I've ever seen even a 65. 

North Dakota has some 65 MPH county roads.

What's the highest speed limit on a dirt road?  There's at least one dirt road in ND with a 55 MPH speed limit: