Ray LaHood stepping down as U.S. transportation secretary

[flowmotion]

A truck or SUV that can pull a sizable trailer, hold 7 people (SUV) and average 30 mpg does NOT exist in the market at the moment.

Such a vehicle should really only exist in the commercial segment. If someone has a business need for it, they ought to be exempt. Otherwise you could just rent it the one day per year you need it, because the owners aren't fooling anyone anymore.

CAFE certainly is a backassward way of accomplishing this, agreed. Put the direct cost of such vehicles on the owners, and the "need" would suddenly evaporate. (Every survey of truck/SUV owners backs this up -- they use it primarily for commuting.)

[Brandon]

A truck or SUV that can pull a sizable trailer, hold 7 people (SUV) and average 30 mpg does NOT exist in the market at the moment.

Such a vehicle should really only exist in the commercial segment. If someone has a business need for it, they ought to be exempt. Otherwise you could just rent it the one day per year you need it, because the owners aren't fooling anyone anymore.

CAFE certainly is a backassward way of accomplishing this, agreed. Put the direct cost of such vehicles on the owners, and the "need" would suddenly evaporate. (Every survey of truck/SUV owners backs this up -- they use it primarily for commuting.)

No, these need to be for personal use as well.  How else do you pull a travel trailer or a boat?  Some folks pull these more often than once a year.

[agentsteel53]

No, these need to be for personal use as well.  How else do you pull a travel trailer or a boat?  Some folks pull these more often than once a year.

to paraphrase Sam Kinison - if you can afford a boat, you don't have a problem!

[kphoger]

No, these need to be for personal use as well.  How else do you pull a travel trailer or a boat?  Some folks pull these more often than once a year.

to paraphrase Sam Kinison - if you can afford a boat, you don't have a problem!

Exactly what I was thinking....in different words.

[PHLBOS]

A truck or SUV that can pull a sizable trailer, hold 7 people (SUV) and average 30 mpg does NOT exist in the market at the moment.

Such a vehicle should really only exist in the commercial segment. If someone has a business need for it, they ought to be exempt. Otherwise you could just rent it the one day per year you need it, because the owners aren't fooling anyone anymore.

CAFE certainly is a backassward way of accomplishing this, agreed. Put the direct cost of such vehicles on the owners, and the "need" would suddenly evaporate. (Every survey of truck/SUV owners backs this up -- they use it primarily for commuting.)

Based on that response alone, you're either not married nor have any kids to haul around.

Trust me, I've seen many small car owners upsize because they started having children.  Instead of the station wagons of yore; they're now using SUVs/CUVs.  And as far only used for commuting remark is concerned; you are aware that there's a higher percentage of dual-income households now than there were 30 years ago aren't you?  As a result, one of the spouses (usually the wife, but not always) uses the larger vehicle to commute to/from work as well as for the family/multi-passenger/cargo transport.

[agentsteel53]

what's wrong with station wagons, precisely? 

[Scott5114]

Back when I was a kid we had these things called minivans...

[kphoger]

what's wrong with station wagons, precisely? 

Apparently the word expired.  They're now called crossovers, which, I guess, makes them less uncool. 

Back when I was a kid we had these things called minivans...

Yep.  We have one, and it has seating for at least six.  We also use it to haul things, no trailer required.  You'd me amazed how much you can fit in the back of a minivan.  Below are a couple pictures of our van from last winter.  Four people, luggage, Christmas presents, a TV stand, and a deep freeze.

[PHLBOS]

what's wrong with station wagons, precisely? 

Nothing IMHO, except that production of such has dropped like a stone over the last 15 to 20 years.  I, for one, would much rather see large station wagons on the road than SUVs. 

GM's last station wagons (full & mid-size) are from 1996 and Ford/Mercury's last full-size Crown Vic/Country Squire/Colony Park wagons were the 1991 models, their last mid-size wagon was the 2005 Taurus wagon and their last compact wagon (in the US market) was the 2007 Focus wagon.

Even Honda, Toyota (exluding the Matrix & a couple Scion models) & Nissan got out of the station wagon market.

The only remaining wagons in the US market today are the Cadillac CTS wagon, Subaru Outback and other German-makes that all tend to be on the small side and pricey.

Back when I was a kid we had these things called minivans...

Again, with the exception of Dodge/Chrysler/VW, Kia, Toyota & Honda; who else currently makes them?  While CAFE standards didn't doom those like it did w/large-car-based station wagons; what caused those to fall out of favor was their FWD platforms weren't designed for medium-to-heavy duty towing (think camping trips).   

However, high gas prices (along w/higher CAFE standards) may indeed cause Ford & GM to reconsider making a minivan again.  It's rumored that Ford will make a 7-passenger version of its compact Transit Connect van.  Time wil tell.

While Crossovers (CUVs) could be considered as the new station wagons; they tend to be heavier & comsume more fuel than minivans... especially and the pricier AWD versions.   

[kphoger]

While CAFE standards didn't doom [minivans] like it did w/large-car-based station wagons; what caused those to fall out of favor was their FWD platforms weren't designed for medium-to-heavy duty towing (think camping trips).   

I grew up camping, and I hardly remember seeing any minivans at the campgrounds.  The ones that did exist were the old VW pop-top vans.  I'm struggling to see how SUVs took over the camping crowd.  The folks who had sedans still drive sedans, the folks who had pickups still drive pickups, some people from both categories have upgraded to SUVs, but most people I know who've gone from minivan to SUV have done so for reasons other than towing capacity.  As for what reasons....  Stowage is a big winner, at least for the more expensive SUVs (in a minivan, you can seat at least six, but there's little room left for your stuff; compare to a Toyota Land Cruiser).  Then there's also the coolness factor:  minivans are a little lame (says a guy who drives one), but SUVs are less so.

[agentsteel53]

SUVs are cool now?  what did it?  was it the OJ chase?

[kphoger]

O.J. Simpson's White Bronco Can Apparently Be Rented for Parties

Terry Richardson and Marlboro Gallery's Max Levai, cigarette in hand, strolled the grounds while Tony Shafrazi, Eli Broad and Jeffrey Deitch ate filet and ravioli. Anthony Haden-Guest drank wine and charmed Greenwich habitués. Children played on the verdant polo field–it was warm and sunny enough for short sleeves. OJ Simpson's white Ford Bronco stood parked under the Urs Fischer statue.

Yes that's right. OJ Simpson. Word is Lowman has been thinking a lot about tragic blondes lately, so Brant rented the infamous rig for the day. A thematic prop from 1994, say.

[Takumi]

SUVs are cool now?  what did it?  was it the OJ chase?

Actually, that was around the same time they started to become popular...

[vdeane]

what's wrong with station wagons, precisely? 

They have to meet the car CAFE standards and SUVs don't.

[PHLBOS]

SUVs are cool now?  what did it?  was it the OJ chase?

Actually, that was around the same time they started to become popular...

However, the OJ chase was not the reason.  As a matter of fact, Ford was already designing its 4-door Expedition successor at the time and the 2-door Bronco was already considered old & outdated then.  It would be dropped for good after 1996; 2 years after the OJ chase.

The major SUV boom that rocked the 90s involved 4-door models.  Both Ford's first Explorer & Chevy first 4-door version of its S-10 based Blazer rolled out in early 1990 as 1991 models giving the Jeep Cherokee (which was around in its then-current form since 1984) some serious competition.  On the full-size vien, Chevy's 4-door Tahoe (originally marketed as a cut-down version of its Suburban) rolled out in 1995 & Ford's Expedition rolled out in 1997.

[cpzilliacus]

SUVs are cool now?  what did it?  was it the OJ chase?

Actually, that was around the same time they started to become popular...

However, the OJ chase was not the reason.  As a matter of fact, Ford was already designing its 4-door Expedition successor at the time and the 2-door Bronco was already considered old & outdated then.  It would be dropped for good after 1996; 2 years after the OJ chase.

The major SUV boom that rocked the 90s involved 4-door models.  Both Ford's first Explorer & Chevy first 4-door version of its S-10 based Blazer rolled out in early 1990 as 1991 models giving the Jeep Cherokee (which was around in its then-current form since 1984) some serious competition.  On the full-size vien, Chevy's 4-door Tahoe (originally marketed as a cut-down version of its Suburban) rolled out in 1995 & Ford's Expedition rolled out in 1997.

I once had a 1990 Bronco.  4.9L straight six with a five-speed manual transmission.

Easy on fuel and loads of torque. 

Wish Ford was still building them.

[Alps]

THEY LET YOU BREED?!?!?! 

[hbelkins]

Too many posts to try to quote from to fashion a reply...

I wouldn't consider a crossover to be the successor to station wagons. To me, crossovers are smaller SUVs because they sit up higher off the road than does a station wagon.

I bought my '08 Saturn Vue used. The family who owned it previously had another child so they found they needed more room. They traded the Vue for a Toyota Highlander at a Lexington Toyota dealership. Apparently the Lexington car dealerships trade used cars among themselves to get used cars of their brand on the lot, so the Saturn dealership in Lexington (which, at the time, was still a Saturn dealership because the brand was still alive, although literally in its last days) got the Vue and put it on their lot. I can see why the original owners traded it, because it's small for me and the stuff I haul around.

I prefer SUVs to cars because they sit up higher (better visibility. both in terms of seeing and being seen) and they are bigger and heavier, thus safer. Plus most of them tend to be 4WD, which is handy in winter weather. My Vue is not 4WD or even AWD, so as a result I still drive my old '00 Toyota Tacoma 4WD when it snows.

I had an aunt who, when she was still driving, loved station wagons. She wasn't happy when they quit becoming available.

[kphoger]

THEY LET YOU BREED?!?!?! 

Yeah, we got our permit from the Alanland DMV back in 2007.

[PHLBOS]

I wouldn't consider a crossover to be the successor to station wagons. To me, crossovers are smaller SUVs because they sit up higher off the road than does a station wagon.

What about larger vehicles like the Chevy Traverse/GMC Arcadia/Buick Enclave and the Ford Flex/Lincoln MKT?  They're strictly marketed as Crossovers (CUVs).

IMHO, if the vehicle in question offers 4WD (as opposed to just AWD) as an option; it's considered an SUV.  If it only offers AWD as an option (which is not recommended for any off-roading); it's considered a CUV.

[agentsteel53]

what is the difference between 4WD and AWD?  (assuming the vehicle has four wheels total!)

[Brandon]

what is the difference between 4WD and AWD?  (assuming the vehicle has four wheels total!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_wheel_drive

[agentsteel53]

what is the difference between 4WD and AWD?  (assuming the vehicle has four wheels total!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_wheel_drive

that just made things more confusing.  the page redirects to "four-wheel drive", tells me that the two are synonymous, then the article says that there may be a problem.  huh!?

[PHLBOS]

IIRC, the term AWD (all-wheel-drive) debuted in the US sometime during the 1980s when it became apparent that some smaller 4WD vehicles (mainly Subarus of the day) weren't really up to snuff in terms of going off-road.

that just made things more confusing.  the page redirects to "four-wheel drive", tells me that the two are synonymous, then the article says that there may be a problem.  huh!?

Scroll down the link a little further and there's a paragraph that confirms/backs up what I previously mentioned.

Except (bold emphasis added):

Even though in the general context, the term "four-wheel drive" usually refers to an ability that a vehicle may have, it is also used to designate the entire vehicle itself. In Australia, vehicles without significant off-road abilities are often referred to as All-Wheel Drives (AWD) or SUVs, while those with off-road abilities are referred to as "four-wheel drives". This term is sometimes also used in North America, somewhat interchangeably for SUVs and pickup trucks and is sometimes mistakenly applied to two-wheel-drive variants of these vehicles.

[kphoger]

I was under the impression that AWD meant you couldn't turn it off, whereas 4WD meant you could.