Alternatives to the flashing yellow arrow

[jeffandnicole]

This has been a standard for years, and people (should) learn in drivers ed to yield on a circular green if there are no arrows illuminated. However, there's too many drivers assuming green means go and make a fail-critical mistake.

Being that the vast majority - 99.99% of traffic lights - don't have a flashing yellow arrow, I think people know what to do when they intend to turn left on a green light. Now...that doesn't mean they do it properly...distractions, failure to see traffic, etc, are all causes of accidents. 

[Pink Jazz]

Agree completely. The fact that NYSDOT has to put up a sign, for example, says something. The ones on NY 5S near Herkimer can be a nightmare because people don't know what the flashing arrow means until they read the sign, which is hard to read unless you're under it. As such, every time I go through there, I see quite a few vehicles stopping at the FYAs when they don't have to. Is it better than the protected-only that was there? Certainly. But I don't see why a doghouse wouldn't have worked at those two intersections, especially because there wasn't anything like it or the Michigan red ball in the state until they installed the first FYAs a few years ago. If I didn't know what a FYA was, I'd have stopped as well to read the sign showing a yellow arrow surrounded by miniscule font.

A doghouse, at least in Nevada and other places, is also nearly always accompanied by a sign. This has been a standard for years, and people (should) learn in drivers ed to yield on a circular green if there are no arrows illuminated. However, there's too many drivers assuming green means go and make a fail-critical mistake. At least with an FYA, a fail-safe mistake (stopping) is more common and results in fewer accidents.

All this to say that sometimes, no matter what you do, somebody is gonna make a stupid mistake and you can't engineer for every contingency.

Here in Arizona, 5-head signals (either doghouse or straight) are not usually accompanied by a sign.

[vdeane]

NYSDOT's FYAs were announced in local newspapers but I think that's it.

If it were FRA, that would be OK if the law was amended to treat it as a FYA.  Otherwise, I'm not risking it if there's a cop or camera nearby (or if I ever see one outside of MI).

[jeffandnicole]

Risking what?

[vdeane]

A ticket.  I intend to keep my perfect record of never getting one.

[wisvishr0]

For those who think that a flashing yellow arrow gives someone the right of way, perhaps my suggestion of adding another color such as blue, purple, white, or pink wouldn't be so bad, since it would have its own meaning.

If I were founding my own country of people who have never lived in the US or Canada before, I'd have flashing yellow mean yield, and flashing green mean what flashing yellow means now (you have the right of way, but other traffic and pedestrians can still cross). No need for another color -- flashing yellow is superfluous right now.

Of course, it means changing habits and rules, which could potentially be dangerous. At the end of the day, I like Maryland's approach of just having flashing red arrows or, if efficiency is really that big a deal at busier intersections, flashing yellow is fine as long as it has a big, clear sign.

I'm a stickler for consistency, so if I had the choice, I'd redo everything and have all signs, lane markings and signals completely standardized across the US (and the world!). But obviously it's not feasible and would probably upset "states' rights" activists. Oh well, it's interesting that each state has its own practices, without which we wouldn't even have this discussion.


iPad

[tradephoric]

A doghouse, at least in Nevada and other places, is also nearly always accompanied by a sign. This has been a standard for years, and people (should) learn in drivers ed to yield on a circular green if there are no arrows illuminated. However, there's too many drivers assuming green means go and make a fail-critical mistake. At least with an FYA, a fail-safe mistake (stopping) is more common and results in fewer accidents.

A fail-critical (go) mistake was more common at a FYA indication than at a FRA indication according to a recent study (NCHRP Web-Only Document 123, page 24).  The FYA may be safer than the circular green (nobody is disputing that) but is the FYA safer than the FRA?

In regards to safety: 
FRA > FYA > circular green

[lordsutch]

Like it or not, FRA isn't happening. FHWA isn't going to amend the MUTCD to add a traffic control predicated on everyone ignoring its legal meaning (STOP) and assuming it means something else (YIELD), no matter how much fun it is for Michiganders to do so.

As for the allegedly confusing meaning of FYA, even the 2003 MUTCD stated: "When a yellow lens is illuminated with rapid intermittent flashes, vehicular traffic is permitted to proceed through the intersection or past such signal indication only with caution."

If you're turning across oncoming traffic without checking if proceeding is clear, you're not "proceeding... with caution."

[cl94]

Like it or not, FRA isn't happening. FHWA isn't going to amend the MUTCD to add a traffic control predicated on everyone ignoring its legal meaning (STOP) and assuming it means something else (YIELD), no matter how much fun it is for Michiganders to do so.

As for the allegedly confusing meaning of FYA, even the 2003 MUTCD stated: "When a yellow lens is illuminated with rapid intermittent flashes, vehicular traffic is permitted to proceed through the intersection or past such signal indication only with caution."

If you're turning across oncoming traffic without checking if proceeding is clear, you're not "proceeding... with caution."

There's a difference between what's in the MUTCD and what the average person will do. MUTCD says a right on red yields to oncoming traffic. That's not how drivers in certain places (i.e. Buffalo) act. In New York especially, a flashing yellow is the default signal indication at a fire station. The other major location is a minor intersection that doesn't warrant a two phase traffic signal but needs a warning. At these (much more common) installations, flashing yellow has the right of way. It is extremely difficult to make people change and learn new things and the rapidly aging population isn't helping matters. Many people will just not understand that a flashing yellow can mean two different things that only depend on the shape.

[Brandon]

Agree completely. The fact that NYSDOT has to put up a sign, for example, says something. The ones on NY 5S near Herkimer can be a nightmare because people don't know what the flashing arrow means until they read the sign, which is hard to read unless you're under it. As such, every time I go through there, I see quite a few vehicles stopping at the FYAs when they don't have to. Is it better than the protected-only that was there? Certainly. But I don't see why a doghouse wouldn't have worked at those two intersections, especially because there wasn't anything like it or the Michigan red ball in the state until they installed the first FYAs a few years ago. If I didn't know what a FYA was, I'd have stopped as well to read the sign showing a yellow arrow surrounded by miniscule font.

A doghouse, at least in Nevada and other places, is also nearly always accompanied by a sign. This has been a standard for years, and people (should) learn in drivers ed to yield on a circular green if there are no arrows illuminated. However, there's too many drivers assuming green means go and make a fail-critical mistake. At least with an FYA, a fail-safe mistake (stopping) is more common and results in fewer accidents.

All this to say that sometimes, no matter what you do, somebody is gonna make a stupid mistake and you can't engineer for every contingency.

Here in Arizona, 5-head signals (either doghouse or straight) are not usually accompanied by a sign.

In Illinois, they (5-lamp towers - we have no doghouses) are and are not accompanied by a sign.  No, it's not Alanland, it's the different DOT districts.  Most IDOT districts typically use the signage.  IDOT District 1 (Chicagoland) and CDOT do not typically use the signage.  District 3 (Kankakee, Ottawa) uses it religiously.

[wisvishr0]

Like it or not, FRA isn't happening. FHWA isn't going to amend the MUTCD to add a traffic control predicated on everyone ignoring its legal meaning (STOP) and assuming it means something else (YIELD), no matter how much fun it is for Michiganders to do so.

As for the allegedly confusing meaning of FYA, even the 2003 MUTCD stated: "When a yellow lens is illuminated with rapid intermittent flashes, vehicular traffic is permitted to proceed through the intersection or past such signal indication only with caution."

If you're turning across oncoming traffic without checking if proceeding is clear, you're not "proceeding... with caution."

Sure, except they teach you in most driver's ed classes that you have the right of way on a flashing yellow (even if you do have to proceed with caution).
Actually, in the MD drivers manual they say you have to "proceed with caution" on green as well. Does that mean a green arrow means yield as well?

[jeffandnicole]

A ticket.  I intend to keep my perfect record of never getting one.

But I'm not clear why.  If you're turning left on a green light, or a flashing yellow/red arrow, that's perfectly legal as long as you yield to oncoming traffic.

[tradephoric]

Alright, so hear me out here....

If you're facing a solid green ball, you have the right of way going straight.
If you're facing a solid green arrow, you have the right of way turning left.
If you're facing a flashing yellow ball, you have the right of way going straight.
If you're facing a flashing yellow arrow, you don't have the right of way???

(Just to be clear, I know exactly what a FYA means.  I'm just playing devil's advocate, saying there's not no reason for confusion.  It's exactly the same as turning right on red on a red arrow.  If you have knowledge of local laws that might border on esoteric, you're fine.  But it could be a lot simpler.)

Try to wrap your mind around this one.  In the province of Ontario....

If you're making a left facing a solid green ball, you DON'T have the right of way.
If you're making a left facing a flashing green ball, you DO have the right of way.

Mind blown!   

[vdeane]

A ticket.  I intend to keep my perfect record of never getting one.

But I'm not clear why.  If you're turning left on a green light, or a flashing yellow/red arrow, that's perfectly legal as long as you yield to oncoming traffic.

With a flashing red, you're LEGALLY supposed to stop.  That is what Michigain law says.  Just because everyone, including the cops, ignores it doesn't mean the law suddenly changed.  Note that "but officer, you didn't pull over the other people who committed the same offense" is NOT a legal defense!

If the law were actually amended to give FRA the same meaning as FYA, then the problem could be avoided.

There is a difference between "it works even if people don't follow the law" and "it works because people don't follow the law".

[cl94]

A ticket.  I intend to keep my perfect record of never getting one.

But I'm not clear why.  If you're turning left on a green light, or a flashing yellow/red arrow, that's perfectly legal as long as you yield to oncoming traffic.

With a flashing red, you're LEGALLY supposed to stop.  That is what Michigain law says.  Just because everyone, including the cops, ignores it doesn't mean the law suddenly changed.  Note that "but officer, you didn't pull over the other people who committed the same offense" is NOT a legal defense!

If the law were actually amended to give FRA the same meaning as FYA, then the problem could be avoided.

There is a difference between "it works even if people don't follow the law" and "it works because people don't follow the law".

Yep. An "other people did it" defense won't work. It just won't. People doing something does not make it legal.

[jakeroot]

If it were me, I would change all the emergency signals to a standard three-head setup with a flashing green orb. It doesn't have a standard meaning yet (within the US), and it would avoid confusion with the amber orb apparently giving the right of way (which isn't true in Washington anyways). This way, the only time you'd see a flashing yellow is at give-way point.

Of course, a standard solid green orb with standard phasing would work. I just want to make sure people don't get used to never seeing it red. I think a different signal type for emergency signals is a good idea.

As a whole, a flashing green orb would mean "you may go but stay alert to crossing traffic". British Columbia uses a flashing green orb to mean 'Ped Crossing' or 'side street has stop signs', and I think a signal with that meaning could come in handy in the US.

[cl94]

Biggest problem with getting rid of the flashing yellow is that you'd have to change several thousand signals. Wouldn't be as much of an issue if everything was still incandescent bulbs, but those are long gone, having been replaced by longer-lasting lamps. Heck, just in New York there are probably tens of thousands of flashing yellow indications.

Then comes the problem of retraining every person on the meaning of each signal indication. At least out east, a flashing yellow means "have ROW with caution" pretty universally.

[Pete from Boston]

A ticket.  I intend to keep my perfect record of never getting one.

But I'm not clear why.  If you're turning left on a green light, or a flashing yellow/red arrow, that's perfectly legal as long as you yield to oncoming traffic.

With a flashing red, you're LEGALLY supposed to stop.  That is what Michigain law says.  Just because everyone, including the cops, ignores it doesn't mean the law suddenly changed.  Note that "but officer, you didn't pull over the other people who committed the same offense" is NOT a legal defense!

If the law were actually amended to give FRA the same meaning as FYA, then the problem could be avoided.

There is a difference between "it works even if people don't follow the law" and "it works because people don't follow the law".

People here, who are notoriously unconcerned with driving rules, generally stop at flashing reds.  i have never encountered a place where people often don't.

[Roadrunner75]

A ticket.  I intend to keep my perfect record of never getting one.

But I'm not clear why.  If you're turning left on a green light, or a flashing yellow/red arrow, that's perfectly legal as long as you yield to oncoming traffic.

With a flashing red, you're LEGALLY supposed to stop.  That is what Michigain law says.  Just because everyone, including the cops, ignores it doesn't mean the law suddenly changed.  Note that "but officer, you didn't pull over the other people who committed the same offense" is NOT a legal defense!

If the law were actually amended to give FRA the same meaning as FYA, then the problem could be avoided.

There is a difference between "it works even if people don't follow the law" and "it works because people don't follow the law".

People here, who are notoriously unconcerned with driving rules, generally stop at flashing reds.  i have never encountered a place where people often don't.

Most of the flashing red balls that people would encounter are accompanied by a stop sign, so that helps in training that behavior (notwithstanding a signal temporarily on flash, left turn signal or on seasonal flash which should get a stop sign anyway).  I don't see people running flashing reds either.

[Pete from Boston]

If it were me, I would change all the emergency signals to a standard three-head setup with a flashing green orb. It doesn't have a standard meaning yet (within the US), and it would avoid confusion with the amber orb apparently giving the right of way (which isn't true in Washington anyways). This way, the only time you'd see a flashing yellow is at give-way point.

Of course, a standard solid green orb with standard phasing would work. I just want to make sure people don't get used to never seeing it red. I think a different signal type for emergency signals is a good idea.

As a whole, a flashing green orb would mean "you may go but stay alert to crossing traffic". British Columbia uses a flashing green orb to mean 'Ped Crossing' or 'side street has stop signs', and I think a signal with that meaning could come in handy in the US.

These were not uncommon in the Boston area until sometime in the last decade.  As mentioned, though, yellow implies a more serious degree of caution.

[wisvishr0]

If it were me, I would change all the emergency signals to a standard three-head setup with a flashing green orb. It doesn't have a standard meaning yet (within the US), and it would avoid confusion with the amber orb apparently giving the right of way (which isn't true in Washington anyways). This way, the only time you'd see a flashing yellow is at give-way point.

Of course, a standard solid green orb with standard phasing would work. I just want to make sure people don't get used to never seeing it red. I think a different signal type for emergency signals is a good idea.

As a whole, a flashing green orb would mean "you may go but stay alert to crossing traffic". British Columbia uses a flashing green orb to mean 'Ped Crossing' or 'side street has stop signs', and I think a signal with that meaning could come in handy in the US.

Completely agree (I had a similar suggestion a few posts back). I had no idea BC did it, so it means that it's possible.

[Pete from Boston]

I should clarify to say that what we had (have?) here was not the emergency setup, but the pedestrian crossing.

[jakeroot]

I should clarify to say that what we had (have?) here was not the emergency setup, but the pedestrian crossing.

I would also like to clarify that my "flashing amber ball" replacement would apply to all flashing amber ball setups, not just emergency signals. My initial post was about one-half thought-out.

[Pink Jazz]

Here in Arizona, fire stations use standard red/yellow/green signals rather than the red/solid yellow/flashing yellow setup.

Note that where I used to live in Hampton Roads, most fire station signals had red lights with white strobes inside them, and the flashing yellow lights were smaller than the red and solid yellow.

[cl94]

Here in Arizona, fire stations use standard red/yellow/green signals rather than the red/solid yellow/flashing yellow setup.

Standard signals are also the standard in New York, but they're always on flashing yellow. I've only once seen one turn to solid yellow and then red, but I was unable to see what happened after the emergency cycle. They might go to green for a short while, but they definitely don't stay green. Signal-controlled railroad crossings here can be steady green or flashing yellow and I know that the flashing yellow ones go green after a train passes. I've never seen a red/yellow/flashing yellow setup here outside of certain T-intersections in New York City where one can only turn right.