Corporal punishment...for or against

[cjk374]

I have been thinking about this for the last couple of weeks.  This is how it got started:

Peterson spanked his kids. Big fucking deal. I got my ass beat when I was a kid using belts, switches, paddles, sticks, and other various objects. Now they call it "child abuse". It's gotten ridiculous.

There is nothing wrong with keeping your child in line, and sometimes the best way to prevent something is to beat the shit out of them so they know what will happen if they try it again.

Agreed. I've heard the Vikings want to bring him back next year. Good on them. Punching your wife is a fuckton different than hitting your kid with a switch. I never had a problem with AP.

"My daddy molested me, and I turned out fine!  I don't see what the big deal is!"

That's what you child beating apologists sound like.  You people disgust me.

Peterson spanked his kids. Big fucking deal. I got my ass beat when I was a kid using belts, switches, paddles, sticks, and other various objects. Now they call it "child abuse". It's gotten ridiculous.

There is nothing wrong with keeping your child in line, and sometimes the best way to prevent something is to beat the shit out of them so they know what will happen if they try it again.

Agreed. I've heard the Vikings want to bring him back next year. Good on them. Punching your wife is a fuckton different than hitting your kid with a switch. I never had a problem with AP.

"My daddy molested me, and I turned out fine!  I don't see what the big deal is!"

That's what you child beating apologists sound like.  You people disgust me.

There's a big difference between getting a spanking and getting fucked in the ass.

Some kids need to be spanked. That's the only way to get through to them.

Some kids need better parents who know how to discipline without resorting to outbursts of violence.

You don't beat a 4 year old child with a stick as punishment unless you are sick in the head.
Time to end this cycle.  Everyone who justifies this stuff sounds exactly like a victim of abuse. "I deserved it."  "I don't blame my parent(s)."  "It was my fault."

Replace "spanking" with "nighttime diddling" and it's the same argument.  It is carrying the abuse forward another generation.

Everyone who was spanked or slapped or some other type of physical punishment:  It's not your fault, you didn't deserve it and your parent or guardian didn't know any better because all they had to go on was how they were treated as a child.  Ask the opinion of any child psychologist and they will tell you, no way should you hit your children.  This is so well documented it's shocking parents still beat their children with objects like AP did.
Children don't learn the lesson you think they do.  They learn that daddy or mommy or grandpa or whatever is capable of violent angry outbursts and non-violent problems can be "solved" with violence.  But what do they know?  They're only "experts".  I'm sure everyone's frustrated grandpappy knows better then people who study this thing for a living.  Sure enough, look at all the people lining up online, on TV, everywhere, to defend a man who beat his preschool aged child so severely, he had to go the hospital.
Awful.

triplemultiplex, here's my issue with your quote, with what I said in this topic had been in fact backed up by the articles people have linked in their responses. I even made mention about the money issues with Adrian Peterson and provided a link thereof. So what I've said in all of my responses seems to you that I was just only responding out of gut feeling and not of fact. Well, I was responding out of fact backing up some of the people who provided the material. And I am in agreement with Alps. Your response to cjk to me was out of selfishness and because you believe everything about your way is best, that doesn't set well and up until this point, I had been nothing but civil and on point about this topic until you had to go on your little diatribe with cjk. I'm not a fan of this "entitlement generation" per se because I'm not that retarded in thinking that way. I'm quite the opposite. I work for what I want. I work my butt off not for my adoration or self satisfaction, but to ensure that what I do and the product I provide them is sufficient and that it meets their needs. You had just proven to me and to Alps this very fact about how self absorbed you are, self entitled to opinion, and self righteous. I'm going to get a bunch of flack for this response, I'm sure of it, but mark my words, triplemutliplex. Mark them. You need to take a hard look at yourself before you engage in any form of public discussion on the internet.

I hereby register my strong disagreement with 3mx. This is what led to the "entitlement generation" of millennials who need constant reassurance to stay on track, because they don't know how to make their own decisions.

Oh please, that's not even a real thing.  Just some "kids these days" ramblings by old people not based in reality.  And to blame it on a lack of corporeal punishment is a complete fantasy.  That is such bullcrap and you have to know that.

Sounds to me like you didn't get enough spankings and punishment growing up...or are you still growing up? 
Please tell me you weren't given "time outs". 

I could take that as an insult directed at my mother if chose to.
My own upbringing is irrelevant.  So is everyone's anecdote.  What matters is aggregate outcomes.

Study this issue scientifically and we find out that children who are physically punished are more aggressive, more likely to get in trouble later in life and more likely to have emotional problems into adulthood.  Most importantly, it's the number one predictor for whether or not a parent uses corporal punishment.  This means we are passing this punitive, aggressive behavior to subsequent generations.

People's gut feelings about this issue are not supported by data.  So to continue to support this barbaric practice is to deny reality and unnecessarily inflict harm on defenseless children, even if they are being miserable little shits.

You cite data. Show us this data. You strike me as someone self-righteous because you believe everything about your way is the best.

I post these links for the casual reader of this thread since I am pretty sure the child beating apologists will not even look at them or dismiss them out of hand.
This just the tip of the iceberg of what the social sciences have to tell us about corporal punishment; 10-15 minutes of casual research with Google Scholar.  These are professional journals, so some of them are not free, but at least read the abstracts.  We figured out spanking, etc. does more harm than good 40 years ago and every study confirms this fact.  I encourage anyone to do their own research.  You might learn something.

Hitting preschool children makes it harder for them to learn and causes them to act out.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/icd.758/abstract;jsessionid=983CAC2C4E78A45CF5A86B8CF33C954C.f01t01?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

Corporal punishment and it's link to domestic violence in adulthood.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/353973?sid=21104944248671&uid=4&uid=2&uid=3739976&uid=3739256
Spank your kids and they are more likely to hit their spouse.

Spank your kids and they are more likely to torture animals.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/354017?sid=21104944248671&uid=3739256&uid=70&uid=4&uid=2134&uid=2&uid=3739976

Adrian Peterson greatly increased the risk of his child growing up to abuse alcohol and drugs.  And it will take longer for him to relax.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811910008876

Children's perception of corporal punishment.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/353974?sid=21104944248671&uid=3739976&uid=4&uid=3739256&uid=2

Once again, Scandinavia leads the world in being less shitty to others.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213499000216
They banned it decades ago and the results have been beneficial.

A meta-analysis of 40 years worth of studies on corporal punishment.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272735812001675

This study says you just might change your opinion about corporal punishment if you actually read up on its negative effects.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213413003189

I don't speak from authority, but my opinion is based on what experts figured out a long time ago.  Clearly this information is not being adequately communicated to parents in this country.
I will not apologize for my tone, however.  Small children should not be struck by adults.  Period.  It pisses me off.
I sympathize with anyone who had to endure this degrading and unnecessary punishment.  But just because you had to deal with that doesn't mean other children should.  Like I said earlier, it's time to end this cycle of violence.

3MX:  I am glad you answered Alps' challenge and cited data that supports your argument.  I read all of the summaries that you posted very carefully and more than once.  I am sorry, but there is no way in hell I was gonna pay money, especially what they were asking for, to read the finite details of their studies.  The summaries were plenty.

Having said this, the data you cited in no way changed my opinion of corporal punishment.  If anything, your sources proved to me that studies such as those you posted can be just a bit manipulated...and I mean only just a little bit.  The source I am referring to is this one:  http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213413003189
They took 118 NON-PARENT adults...childless adults...and read them studies about the negative effects of CP, and you would get a change of opinion from some of the subjects.  That's fine and dandy, but if you took 118 NON-INVESTING adults and read them studies about the negative effects of investing money in the stock market, you would wind up with alot of them changing their opinions about investing.  Why?  Because focus was on the negative, not the positive.  But you can do that with alot people who don't know anything about whatever subject.  It's all in how, and what, the material is presented. (I hate to mention it, but look what Adolf Hitler did to an entire country)

Same here on this thread of this forum.  You have presented your data supporting your argument in a way to sway others to believe how you do.  My data can only come from what I have personally witnessed in real life with real people.  I do believe there is a line that you cross when corporal punishment becomes child abuse, which I deplore immensely.  But I also deplore spoiled brats who think they are entitled to whatever their hearts desire.  I know the meaning of the word "no" thanks to corporal punishment.  That's how I was raised, it's what I know works, because of how I turned out.

Just like you say at the bottom of your posts:  "That's like...your opinion man".

[corco]

Frankly, I don't see it as black and white. I am very much against whipping the belt out and beating the shit out of your kids, but I'm okay with spanking or whatever. As long as it is a calculated maneuver and one that is made with reason and not as an emotional snap decision (kid does something you don't like, you are having a bad day, you take it out on the kid), there's nothing wrong with it.

I'm also fine with it in extreme cases, but not in minor cases. If your kid spills milk, there's no reason to beat your kid. If your kid lights the dog on fire, there's probably merit to using corporal punishment.

At the end of the day though, as long as there isn't visible bruising and the people doing it to punish the kid, not as a vent for their own anger, I think it's a parenting decision, not one that anybody else needs to get involved in. If I ever have kids, I won't be using corporal punishment, but my choice not to do so is not the same as me saying "corporal punishment is always child abuse."

[hotdogPi]

Guess what else CP stands for.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=carbon+monophosphide&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[cjk374]

I really don't want this taken as political.  I mostly trying to show how results can be "produced" to influence opinion.

[corco]

I don't really buy that argument.

Of course if you expose people to studies on the negative effects of corporal punishment, they'll be more against it. Probably the opposite would happen if you exposed people to studies on the positive effects of corporal punishment.

Do those exist? The way to refute a study showing that corporal punishment doesn't work would be to find studies showing that corporal punishment works, not by saying "I can't let this affect my opinion because these studies are changing people's opinions." That argument frankly doesn't make any sense.

The results were arrived at neutrally, and a study was conducted to see how people's opinions were changed when they were shown the results. That's not producing or manipulating anything. It's only manipulative if the initial studies were bogus, but you're not arguing that they are.

From an "is it effective" standpoint, if we're basing on anecdotes, I'd propose a couple other hypotheticals:
1) Your parents used corporal punishment effectively. They used it in a rational manner. Not everybody's parents will do that, and that can diminish the effectiveness.
2) Your parents were good parents who instilled a quality value system on you and corporal punishment had no effect on that one way or another. You didn't need to be beaten to become a good person- you were already a good person because your parents raised you correctly. Correlation does not necessarily equal causation- there are good people that were never beaten, just as there are good people that were beaten.

[SSOWorld]

Please keep the conversation civil.  Any political or jabbing in this thread will lead to it's locking.

[Jardine]

Hell, I think we need a fictitious entity (shades of Santa !!) that is mentioned on the news from time time who is allowed to spank especially naughty children, TO DEATH.

Might keep more of the little buggers in line.

[J N Winkler]

I voted "against."  My views on this issue are fairly close to Triplemultiplex's.  I consider the spectacle of a child being corporally disciplined in public to be on the same taste level as bear-baiting.  I don't like to hear people brag about spanking their children (even if they do it on the buttocks only, don't use implements, and don't leave bruises; to call these best practices for spanking is a bit like calling waterboarding a best practice for torture).  On Facebook I have unfollowed people for posting with what seems, to me, like unseemly enthusiasm for disciplining their children.

On the other hand, I believe the cycle of abuse does have the potential to break across a generation.  And while bans on spanking seem to have been successful in the Scandinavian countries, I don't think we in the English-speaking world have the culture to support a straight-up ban.  By itself, it would not help the parents who mean well but find themselves in moments where the only workable alternative seems to be a form of corporal punishment.  It would also tend to force the hands of social workers and other professionals involved in child-in-need-of-care cases, who need some discretion to go after the real problem parents, such as the mother in this town who was found several years ago starving her stepchildren in the basement while her biological children had plenty of food.

[bandit957]

Against. This is 2015.

[golden eagle]

I'm for it, as long as it's not over minor things.

[riiga]

I have a very clear stance on this topic: Physically harming or abusing a child in any way is never right. It doesn't matter if it's only "a light slap" or "a proper beating", using any sort of violence against children is never justifiable. Ever. Voted against in the poll obviously.

It's probably tied a lot to culture though, but it can change quite quickly. All forms of corporal punishment have been outlawed here in Sweden since 1979, and in practice since 1966. One year before, in a 1965 survey, a majority (53 %) of adults supported corporal punishment of children. In the 90s only about 10 % supported the practice, and I think it would be even lower today.

[1995hoo]

I can't decide what I think about corporal punishment in general. I think certain forms, such as whipping your kid with a belt or a shoe or the like, are clearly abusive and wrong. I remember when I was a kid another father down the block disciplined his son by literally kicking him in the arse, and he'd do it in public. I always hoped when that kid got bigger he'd beat the crap out of his father for abusing him like that.

When it comes to simple spanking with just a hand, I'm not sure what I think, but I recently saw a comment somewhere noting that there's something very wrong with the notion that you're not allowed to hit anyone EXCEPT if the person you're hitting is your own child. I thought that comment made a pretty compelling point.

[Zeffy]

I'm extremely neutral on this topic. First, do I think hitting a child is wrong? Absolutely. I didn't suffer through that kind of abuse growing up because I didn't act out (okay, so maybe in my early teenager years I did..), but that was mainly because of my odd life style in the first place. However, if corporal punishment stops a kid from becoming a thug, drug dealer, etc. then I think it's acceptable. Think about it - yes, there are repercussions to beating the hell out of your child, but it sends the message that their behavior won't be tolerated. If that message keeps their life from going on a downward spiral, then I say it's worth it. Beating a kid because they have shitty grades? No. Take away their belongings or do other things. One of my best friend's brother was consistently acting out at school, and his grades were plummeting for how early in the school year it was. His grades last year were terrible. Eventually the kid beat up another weaker kid just to act "cool" to his friends. His mother decided on a very unique form of punishment, in the form of a buzz-cut and being forced to wear proper clothes. The kid resented every part of that idea though, and while I don't want to get into too much details, I got involved (not willingly, mind you). A few months later, he is doing much better in school, and it shows there are other ways to keep your kid in line rather than beating the shit out of them.

I don't support anyone beating up a kid that isn't their own, and like I said before, I only support corporal punishment if it would keep the kid from completely ruining their lives.

[bandit957]

If a school principal ever paddled my kid, I'd march down to the school and rip the principal's head off.

[The Nature Boy]

I am against ever putting a hand on a child. Does it stop behavior? Sure, but it also teaches them that violence is something you should resort to when you don't get your way.

[Pete from Boston]

Another practical problem is, kids often figure out the adult's limit, and then the adult has lost the efficacy of perhaps the scariest tactic they could employ.  Without even touching the morality of it, I think it's a sort of naive diplomatic tactic.  The kid will figure out there are only four aces on the deck, and then what?  Military school?  Smarter is cheaper. 

[english si]

I'm struggling to see why physical harm from light smacking (dead against use of weapons and disproportionate force) is somehow massively worse than the psychological harm from other punishments - which typically take the form of enforced solitude or menial and pointless labour.

Such things have been severely reduced/eradicated in prisons due to the harm they do, but we're increasingly seeing such things as far better for the child than smacking.

Certainly - while proving nothing, I know - I remember the torment of non-smacking punishments far more than when I was smacked (I remember it hurt, but unlike non-physical punishments, I can't remember the pain itself). AFAICS, the time outs and lines had far greater long term negative effects on me than getting 6 short, sharp slaps on my buttocks.

[vdeane]

There's also the issue of kids figuring out that they can do whatever they want if the parents never punish them (as happens often these days).

Someone I know once told me a story about a kid who wanted to play "combat" (translation: beat the shit out of a girl with a stick) and was having a temper tantrum because the girl wouldn't go along with him.  There's also the rising amount of kids who act up at restaurants and ruin everyone else's eating experience.  Kids aren't "little angels" like they are popularly thought of these days.

Fun but pertinent video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNNnryaPMos

[hbelkins]

For. I was spanked as a child and wasn't harmed in any way. Fear of a spanking led me to not misbehave.

If a school principal ever paddled my kid, I'd march down to the school and rip the principal's head off.

Once upon a time, the opposite was true. If a kid got a spanking at school, they'd get a spanking at home too. The attitude shown above reminds me of that cartoon that made the rounds that show the scene years ago when parents jumped all over their kids for getting bad grades, but now jump all over the teacher when a kid gets a bad grade.

Something like this:



Are there any school districts in Kentucky that still allow spanking? It was allowed when I was in school, and I only got two spankings as a student. When I was in high school, students often had the choice of being paddled or being suspended for some infractions. Most students chose the paddling.

[bandit957]

Are there any school districts in Kentucky that still allow spanking?

I'm pretty sure Newport does. Campbell County allowed it when I was in school there in the '80s, but I think they finally abolished it.

[Laura]

To be honest, I have always felt "meh" about corporal punishment.

I don't really think it's a black or white issue because the effects of punishments are not the same for every kid. The punishments that worked for my brother did not work for me, and vice versa. For instance, if my brother wasn't allowed to watch his favorite TV show, he was upset. I was indifferent. However, if you made me kneel for ten minutes (I hated kneeling), I got upset and certainly learned my lesson. My brother would be like "kneeling as punishment? seriously? this is easy."

A good parent would be creative and use punishments that work for each specific kid. I can see using corporate punishment as an absolute last resort when nothing else works, but I think there are better, non-physical punishments.

For the record, I was only ever spanked once. I learned my lesson and never needed to be spanked again, lol.

[bandit957]

I remember in 7th grade, my gym teacher hit me with a ping-pong paddle, and I cussed him out. Result: expulsion.

[jakeroot]

I grew up with parents who were gone a lot, so me and my sister lived with my grandparents for a lot of my youth. My grandma was born in the 40s in Tacoma, Washington, which back then was an industrial, blue-collar town. Her youth was pretty rough, and she had to take care of a lot of siblings for her mom, since a father figure was entirely absent, which kept her mom at the factory (with a lot of other women circa WWII era) most of the time.

Where am I going with this? So, unlike my grandpa's mom, who was strangely well off, my grandma's mom (my great-grandma) used corporal punishment quite often, and, as she recalls, the last thing she needed was a sore ass or leg while she was running around cooking and cleaning. Every now and then, one of the siblings would do something stupid and they'd all get hit, on the basis that they should take care of each other and are all prone to punishment if one of them makes a mistake. Fair enough, I suppose (for 50s America, at least).

My grandma kept this tradition going throughout her children's youth, and yeah, my youth as well. Being so poor when she was young, they were very religious. Being religious, she refuses to ever tell a lie (since lying his heavily frowned upon in the Christian church). Anyways, I lied a lot when I was younger, and I got hit a ton. In fact, I got hit so often that I shy away from any situation where I feel someone might, in an aggressive manner, lay a hand on me. For this reason, I support corporal punishment. Since my spanking-filled youth has ended, I really don't like fights since I don't like getting my ass whooped (pun intended).

Also, I'm slightly offended that, triplemultiplex, you would compare rape to a smack on the ass. I got the latter a whole bunch, and I'm sure it was still miles better than having something shoved in it without my permission.

[hotdogPi]

A good parent would be creative and use punishments that work for each specific kid. I can see using corporate punishment as an absolute last resort when nothing else works, but I think there are better, non-physical punishments.

Was this intentional?

[triplemultiplex]

Having said this, the data you cited in no way changed my opinion of corporal punishment.  If anything, your sources proved to me that studies such as those you posted can be just a bit manipulated...and I mean only just a little bit.  The source I am referring to is this one:  http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213413003189

Strictly speaking, that study was about how one could attempt to get a person to change their opinion of corporal punishment by exposing them to hard data on outcomes, not about the effects of corporal punishment.  I only included it to make a point about arguing this subject.

Like I said in the other thread, that was only a small sample of four decades of data and peer review that all points in the same direction.  There are literally thousands of studies on the subject and the consensus opinion is corporal punishment does more harm than good.

Same here on this thread of this forum.  You have presented your data supporting your argument in a way to sway others to believe how you do.  My data can only come from what I have personally witnessed in real life with real people.  I do believe there is a line that you cross when corporal punishment becomes child abuse, which I deplore immensely.  But I also deplore spoiled brats who think they are entitled to whatever their hearts desire.  I know the meaning of the word "no" thanks to corporal punishment.  That's how I was raised, it's what I know works, because of how I turned out.

Anecdotes are not data.
I don't mean to insult anyone, but how objective can any one person really be in assessing their own outcome?  Especially when it might result in an unfavorable depiction of one's own parents?
Did it ever occur to any of you that you turned out "fine" in spite of your childhood discipline rather than because of it?  You have no proof of causality for your conclusion.  Instead you are relying on assumption.

Just like you say at the bottom of your posts:  "That's like...your opinion man".

The Dude abides.

Also, I'm slightly offended that, triplemultiplex, you would compare rape to a smack on the ass. I got the latter a whole bunch, and I'm sure it was still miles better than having something shoved in it without my permission.

So molestation always means penetration?  That is a weird assumption.