As the World Embraces Diesels, Americans Still Play Hard to Get

[cpzilliacus]

N.Y. Times: As the World Embraces Diesels, Americans Still Play Hard to Get

LOOKING to increase his fuel economy, Roderick Smith of Woonsocket, R.I., who works in information technology, bought a new Volkswagen Golf at the beginning of the year. Unlike most Americans, Mr. Smith opted for a model equipped with a diesel, rather than a gasoline, engine.

"It's the quietest car I've ever owned,"  he said.

"Quiet"  and "diesel"  are two words not usually seen together. When American consumers think of diesel-engine vehicles – if they think about them at all – other words most likely come to mind, like "noisy,"  "smoky"  and "slow."

But that has changed. Today's diesel engines run as clean as gasoline engines, get significantly better fuel economy and may even save their owners money in the long run. And, as Mr. Smith discovered, they are quiet, too.

Diesel-power vehicles have traditionally been offered by European manufacturers; about half of the passenger vehicles sold in Europe run on diesel fuel, compared with less than 1 percent in the United States. With gasoline still costing more than $6 per United States gallon in Britain, any solution that can increase fuel economy is welcomed.

[jeffandnicole]

Diesel vehicles don't run on gasoline.  So the cost of gas is meaningless when talking about diesel vehicles.

What is the cost of gasoline & diesel in Europe?

[Brian556]

Since there are a good number a service stations that don't have diesel, it could be an inconvenience.

[jakeroot]

Diesel vehicles don't run on gasoline.  So the cost of gas is meaningless when talking about diesel vehicles.

What is the cost of gasoline & diesel in Europe?

In Germany, the cost of unleaded (95) petrol is $1.49 a liter, so about $5.60 per US gallon. Diesel is is about $4.90 per US gallon.

The context of comparing unleaded and diesel is not as technical as you're making it out to be. They're simply saying that fuel costs in Europe, in general, are higher.

Since there are a good number a service stations that don't have diesel, it could be an inconvenience.

I don't think that's a factor for most buyers, since ~ 2/3 or more of fuel stations have diesel (at least in my area).

[oscar]

Since there are a good number a service stations that don't have diesel, it could be an inconvenience.

I don't think that's a factor for most buyers, since ~ 2/3 or more of fuel stations have diesel (at least in my area).

It is a factor for people who travel in remote areas, where gas stations are scarce, and diesel might be even more so.

OTOH, in some places diesel might be more available than gas.  For example, on the lonely road in Australia discussed on this forum, with a 815-km gap between gas stations, you can find diesel along the way.

[SP Cook]

I owed a Diesel (Diesel is a person's name and should be capitalized, BTW).  The fuel availability issue is NBD as long as you stay in your home region.  You know your local stations, of course, and also know which brands in your region consistently have Diesel in the regular car isles.  Sometimes travelling it can be a hassle because you don't want to end up driving around all the stations off a particular exit looking for the Diesel selling one, and end up in the line with the 18 Wheelers, which some truck stops are fine with and others are not.   Remote areas are not really a problem, because the range of the vehicle is greater, and, actually most remote area are populated by industries that would tend to use Diesel for their trucks and tractors.

All the ho-ha about smoke and soot and noise and dirty and not starting in the cold is just so much ho-ha.  The cars work just like any other car.  You don't even notice.

What holds Diesel back in the USA is taxes.  In Europe the taxes tend to be the same, but in the USA, since the main buyers are mostly (out of state and thus non-voting) truckers and corporations, the states jack up the tax on Diesel so high that it saps all the $ benefit out of the deal.  In my state, Diesel is about 30% more per gallon.  So it really does not make economic sense to own one.

[kphoger]

I owed a Diesel (Diesel is a person's name and should be capitalized, BTW).  The fuel availability issue is NBD as long as you stay in your home region.  You know your local stations, of course, and also know which brands in your region consistently have Diesel in the regular car isles.  Sometimes travelling it can be a hassle because you don't want to end up driving around all the stations off a particular exit looking for the Diesel selling one, and end up in the line with the 18 Wheelers, which some truck stops are fine with and others are not.   Remote areas are not really a problem, because the range of the vehicle is greater, and, actually most remote area are populated by industries that would tend to use Diesel for their trucks and tractors.

All the ho-ha about smoke and soot and noise and dirty and not starting in the cold is just so much ho-ha.  The cars work just like any other car.  You don't even notice.

What holds Diesel back in the USA is taxes.  In Europe the taxes tend to be the same, but in the USA, since the main buyers are mostly (out of state and thus non-voting) truckers and corporations, the states jack up the tax on Diesel so high that it saps all the $ benefit out of the deal.  In my state, Diesel is about 30% more per gallon.  So it really does not make economic sense to own one.

Yep, diesel in the US has been consistently more expensive than gasoline for quite some time now.  I'm sure that plays a lot into people's decisions when buying a car:  Let's see, do I want to pay 40 cents more per gallon every time I fill up, or not?

As for not starting in the cold...  I used to drive diesel box trucks for work about eight years ago or so in southern Illinois.  One of our trucks did have trouble with the diesel gelling up when the temperature outside was down below 15° or so.  Of the three diesel trucks we had, too, that one was the newest model.

[02 Park Ave]

It is not uncommon for Diesal fuel to be cheaper than regular grade gasoline during the winter months in Chicagoland.

[Scott5114]

Diesel vehicles don't run on gasoline.  So the cost of gas is meaningless when talking about diesel vehicles.

Not really. The only reason many people would consider a diesel vehicle is if it works out to be cheaper to operate than a gas-powered vehicle.

I owed a Diesel (Diesel is a person's name and should be capitalized, BTW). 

So is watt and amp(ere) and those are not capitalized. Once-capitalized things tend to lose their initial capitals once they become a generic term. This even happens to commercial products–I'm sure you've put a kleenex in a dumpster next to the yellow pages before.

[briantroutman]

I think too much is made of the Oldsmobile Diesels' bad reputation. For the most part, people have short memories.

In my view, it all comes down to economics. The article suggests that the price premium for a diesel-engined car over its gas-powered twin is in the neighborhood of $2-3,000. That ignores the fact that in the case of many cars, like the Cruze, diesel power is available only in a single, high-content trim level. The Cruze Diesel has an MSRP of over $26,000. If you're truly concerned about operating costs, you can buy a gas-powered Cruze for nearly $10K less.

And then there's confounding reversal in diesel vs. gasoline prices; diesel used to be a few cents less than gasoline back in the early '80s. Now, a gallon of diesel isn't just slightly more expensive–according to the EPA, diesel prices averaged 87¢ more nationally for the week ending January 19. That's more than a third more expensive, and very importantly, more than the 33% average efficiency gain of diesel engines. At those prices, very few Americans could make a financial argument for owning a diesel.

[vdeane]

The only diesel vehicles I see regularly are either school busses or NYSDOT vehicles that sound like school busses.  Are other diesel vehicles really quieter?

[kphoger]

The only diesel vehicles you notice being diesel regularly are either school buses or...

It's very possible you have diesel cars next to you in traffic every week without realizing it.

[1995hoo]

I've driven a couple of diesel cars in the UK and was quite favorably impressed by them, especially the Passat turbodiesel I drove in Scotland (five-speed manual). I would not hesitate to buy a diesel if the right car were available with that option if/when I'm in the car market, which I hope is not for a long time.

A lot of people will always find it off-putting that diesel tends to cost more than gas in the US. I think that's overly simplistic because you need to compare the cost of diesel to the cost of the particular grade of gas specified for the same car's gas model and then compare their performance; you also have to consider how much more you might pay for the diesel car in the first place. The fuel costing more per gallon may not matter because of the generally-superior fuel economy (in about 450 miles of driving around England I used only 3/4 of a tank of diesel in mixed motorway/A-road/B-road/city driving, for example, whereas my current primary car might get 450 miles on a tank of gas if I spend the entire time on the Interstate in sixth gear). The price difference for the car itself is a bigger potential issue. But I think most people just aren't willing to consider it to that level of detail.

My father has expressed interest in a Mercedes diesel but is concerned about the potential for having to refill the urea tank in a rural area with no Mercedes dealer around. It won't matter either way because he'll dither forever and never get around to it because they use my mother's Volvo S80 when they travel anyway.

[cpzilliacus]

My pickup truck has a 7.3L turboDiesel, with a six-speed manual transmission.

As long as I keep the speed at or below 70 MPH (about 110 km/h), I get 20 or 21 MPG (about 12 liters per 100 km).  With a 30 gallon (about 110 liter) tank, that gives me a range of well over 500 miles (800 km).  Above 70 MPH, the MPG rate declines - something I learned driving across Kansas (most of I-70 in that state has a posted limit of 75 MPH (120 km/h), and the 85th percentile speed was probably closer to 80 MPH (130 km/h)).

[cpzilliacus]

My father has expressed interest in a Mercedes diesel but is concerned about the potential for having to refill the urea tank in a rural area with no Mercedes dealer around. It won't matter either way because he'll dither forever and never get around to it because they use my mother's Volvo S80 when they travel anyway.

He can purchase jugs of the stuff at truck stops (I do not think it has to be purchased from a Mercedes dealer).

[GCrites]

What holds Diesel back in the USA is taxes.  In Europe the taxes tend to be the same, but in the USA, since the main buyers are mostly (out of state and thus non-voting) truckers and corporations, the states jack up the tax on Diesel so high that it saps all the $ benefit out of the deal.  In my state, Diesel is about 30% more per gallon.  So it really does not make economic sense to own one.

What kind of taxes are these? Highway or regular sales? One of the main reasons Diesel is more expensive in the States than Europe is that our refining capacity is designed to handle gasoline as a much larger percentage of fuel produced actually.

[cpzilliacus]

What holds Diesel back in the USA is taxes.  In Europe the taxes tend to be the same, but in the USA, since the main buyers are mostly (out of state and thus non-voting) truckers and corporations, the states jack up the tax on Diesel so high that it saps all the $ benefit out of the deal.  In my state, Diesel is about 30% more per gallon.  So it really does not make economic sense to own one.

What kind of taxes are these? Highway or regular sales? One of the main reasons Diesel is more expensive in the States than Europe is that our refining capacity is designed to handle gasoline as a much larger percentage of fuel produced actually.

Per-gallon excise taxes, imposed by the state and federal governments in the United States.

Federal tax is USD $0.184 per gallon.  State taxes vary. 

[NJRoadfan]

Diesel only enjoys success in Europe because its usage is encouraged by lower taxes on the fuel itself (the price per liter is artificially lower).

It isn't popular in the US due to a few factors
-Price is usually higher per gallon then gasoline, sometimes enough that the extra fuel economy doesn't allow one to break even on running costs. Gasoline vehicles have also been slowly closing the efficiency gap between the engines.
-Purchase price of the vehicle vs. the gasoline version is significantly higher thanks to expensive emissions treatment systems required in the US. Europe has lower emissions standards and doesn't require this.... yet.

Overall, you have to drive a ton of miles a year to come close to breaking even on a diesel vs. gasoline car.

[GCrites]

What holds Diesel back in the USA is taxes.  In Europe the taxes tend to be the same, but in the USA, since the main buyers are mostly (out of state and thus non-voting) truckers and corporations, the states jack up the tax on Diesel so high that it saps all the $ benefit out of the deal.  In my state, Diesel is about 30% more per gallon.  So it really does not make economic sense to own one.

What kind of taxes are these? Highway or regular sales? One of the main reasons Diesel is more expensive in the States than Europe is that our refining capacity is designed to handle gasoline as a much larger percentage of fuel produced actually.

Per-gallon excise taxes, imposed by the state and federal governments in the United States.

Federal tax is USD $0.184 per gallon.  State taxes vary.

Indeed. So in some states, Diesel is taxed at a higher amount? But on the federal level Diesel and gasoline are always taxed the same.

[GCrites]

-Purchase price of the vehicle vs. the gasoline version is significantly higher thanks to expensive emissions treatment systems required in the US. Europe has lower emissions standards and doesn't require this.... yet.

Overall, you have to drive a ton of miles a year to come close to breaking even on a diesel vs. gasoline car.

But on some vehicles such as Dodge Rams, a worn 2000 gasoline Ram is worth maybe $3000 while a Diesel in equivalent condition and mileage is worth $9,000+.

[briantroutman]

Per-gallon excise taxes, imposed by the state and federal governments in the United States.

Federal tax is USD $0.184 per gallon.  State taxes vary.

That's for gasoline. Federal excise taxes on diesel fuel are 24.4¢ per gallon.

Indeed. So in some states, Diesel is taxed at a higher amount?

On the state level, the differential between gasoline and diesel taxes (full list viewable through the "state-by-state taxes"  link on this page) ranges from a 25¢ discount in California to a 29¢ penalty in Connecticut. In most cases (30 states + DC) the rates are either the same or within 1¢ of each other.

But on some vehicles such as Dodge Rams, a worn 2000 gasoline Ram is worth maybe $3000 while a Diesel in equivalent condition and mileage is worth $9,000+.

I think that's largely due to the durability reputations of diesel truck engines in particular (the Ram's being a Cummins with a solid reputation), which routinely return hundreds of thousands of miles of service under demanding conditions without requiring a major rebuild. A diesel Jetta or Golf probably holds value a little better than its gas-powered brethren, but not as dramatically so as a truck, and probably not well enough to make up for VW's generally poor resale value.

[1995hoo]

Then you have the taxes in Virginia, where gas is not subject to a per-gallon state tax at the pump (it's taxed at the wholesale stage) but diesel is, and the Commonwealth gives a tax refund to owners of diesel cars. I don't know how it works, haven't had reason to learn about it since I don't own a diesel, but I believe the refund is based on the tax per gallon for diesel versus the tax rate on gas at the time of the fuel purchase, so diesel owners have to save their receipts (and get receipts in the first place).

I bring this up because it applies even to out-of-staters who drive qualifying vehicles (diesel passenger cars, pickup or panel trucks, and trucks with a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or less), so perhaps someone here like cpzilliacus might benefit from it.

[english si]

What is the cost of gasoline & diesel in Europe?

Depends from country to country.

N.Y. Times: As the World Embraces Diesels, Americans Still Play Hard to Get

Meanwhile in Britain, we've come to realise the whole diesel thing is a con: the British papers' reaction to last year's Paris pollution issues were mostly about how the French love diesels, Boris Johnson has talked about increasing the Congestion Charge for diesel vehicles (though sadly not the big-engined diesel black cabs, though he has encouraged greener taxis and buses, with special interest to particulate and NOx reduction) to try and improve air quality, and a senior Labour politician attacks his predecessor for lowering the diesel tax rate to encourage diesel cars.

"Quiet"  and "diesel"  are two words not usually seen together. When American consumers think of diesel-engine vehicles – if they think about them at all – other words most likely come to mind, like "noisy,"  "smoky"  and "slow."

Noisy and slow, sure - diesels don't have to be that. And I guess NOx and PM10 isn't 'smoky' but 'sooty and toxic'!

NOx levels for drivers in diesel cars are close to dangerous without fuel additives that are flying off the shelves after the diesel con was exposed on TV two weeks ago.

See the Yaris - here's NOx, CO2., noise and mpg (Combined driving) figures for different models
1.5L Petrol Hybrid Continuously Variable: NOx 6mg/km, CO2 75 - 82g/km, 73db(A), 85.6/78.5mpg
1.0L Petrol Manual: NOx 14.8mg/km, CO2 99g/km, 73db(A), 65.7mpg
1.33L Petrol Manual: NOx 8mg/km, CO2 114-119g/km, 72db(A), 57.6/55.4mpg
1.33L Petrol Automatic: NOx 7.2mg/km, CO2 114-119g/km, 73db(A), 57.6/55.4mpg
1.4L Diesel Manual: NOx 141.1mg/km, CO2 99g/km, 69db(A), 72.4mpg

That's ten times the amount of NOx, though the Documentary only claimed 4 times more NOx between diesel and petrol. Not a huge difference in CO2 and not massively big ones in noise and efficiency.

But that has changed. Today's diesel engines run as clean as gasoline engines

In terms of CO2 , sure, there's a small benefit there, but tell that to those tens of thousands each year where diesel emissions have contributed to their premature deaths.

With gasoline still costing more than $6 per United States gallon in Britain, any solution that can increase fuel economy is welcomed.

Why? And it's not like we can buy cars with great fuel economy!

Diesel is about 6p/litre more in Britain these days (though the extra 15 mpg you get renders that cost moot). And fuel economy isn't everything - the hidden cost of EU lawsuits (paid by all taxpayers, not just those travelling in diesel powered vehicles) for bad air quality undoes the financial bonus, which is about the only reason to get a diesel.

[GCrites]

Per-gallon excise taxes, imposed by the state and federal governments in the United States.

Federal tax is USD $0.184 per gallon.  State taxes vary.

That's for gasoline. Federal excise taxes on diesel fuel are 24.4¢ per gallon.

Indeed. So in some states, Diesel is taxed at a higher amount?

On the state level, the differential between gasoline and diesel taxes (full list viewable through the "state-by-state taxes"  link on this page) ranges from a 25¢ discount in California to a 29¢ penalty in Connecticut. In most cases (30 states + DC) the rates are either the same or within 1¢ of each other.

So in most states, the 30% premium on Diesel is mostly due to refining capacity, other infrastructure issues, commodities markets and other macro factors.

[mgk920]

Here in the USA, one also has to factor in EPA (federal 'Environmental Protection Agency') emissions limit rules.  Their latest 'Tier' of limits ('Tier IV?') are so low that they are now stretching the very capabilities of diesel engine tech to their breaking point, not just in cars but in big-rig trucks, buses, railroad locomotives, off-road heavy construction equipment and so forth, such that any further rule tightening may be physically impossible for diesel engines to ever be able to meet.

Mike