NJ Self-Service Gas?

[Pete from Boston]

Not once has anyone said they had to move back to Jersey because they couldn't deal with the pressures of pumping their own gas.

It is also safe to assume people are not leaving New Jersey for the freedom to pump gas.

[jeffandnicole]

I still think we'll lose a lot of jobs - NJ.com estimated at least 10,000+ full time jobs in an article today, not counting part-time.  Is it necessarily a reason to maintain full-serve?  No, but we're still going to lose a lot of jobs, even if they're not very good jobs.

By a very rough estimate, there's about 3,000 - 3,500 gas stations in NJ.  That would mean about 3 full time attendants per station.  I have a very hard time believing there's an average of 3 full time attendants per station.  I have a harder time believing that every single one of those attendants would be out of work.  Remember, NJ's current bill requires at least some full serve pumps at each gas station, so you can't get rid of every attendant.  And some of those attendants working outside, especially in small, individually owned station, would then be working inside in a booth. 

When people state there could be jobs lost, they rarely look at the jobs found.  Going back to the EZ Pass example - yes, toll booth attendants are less in demand.  But EZ Pass didn't create itself - there's a huge number of jobs in the technology, customer service, construction and maintenance positions dealing with EZ Pass.  It wouldn't be surprising if EZ Pass actually created a net increase in jobs. 

Of course you will find a busy station where they might take a little time to get to you, but usually it's not a problem.

You'll find many stories, including me, of stations with no one, and you're still looking around for the attendant who may be in the bathroom or roaming around on a cell phone.  And I believe NJ's current law requires attendants to be well trained in the dispensing of fuel, which would mean they should be following safety precautions such as not being on a cell phone.

Wawa actually violates the law in my opinion.  Again, full service is here in part because attendants can make sure the car is functioning properly, which includes checking oil, etc.  Yet Wawa has stickers that say their attendants are only trained in the dispensing of fuel, and can't do other maintenance-type work.

[oscar]

Wawa actually violates the law in my opinion.  Again, full service is here in part because attendants can make sure the car is functioning properly, which includes checking oil, etc.  Yet Wawa has stickers that say their attendants are only trained in the dispensing of fuel, and can't do other maintenance-type work.

While oil checks, cleaning windshields, etc. are part of the traditional "full service" package, does the law require anything more than dispensing fuel?

IIRC, Oregon gas stations sometimes describe themselves as "mini-serve", to head off any expectations that the pump jockeys will do anything more than dispense fuel and collect payment.

[vdeane]

Most NJ stations seem to be the same.  Of the times I've filled up there, I've only had them do anything other than pump gas once... and that was to clean the windshield at a Turnpike station that practically had a jockey for each pump that needed things to do.

Honestly, I prefer self-serve.  You don't have to wait on anyone else, and you don't worry about someone having the gas cap rest right on the car's paint.

There's actually a gas station with full service pumps right near my parents' house, though I wasn't aware of that fact until recently since I never go there.  Imagine my surprise when I pull in one winter to clean some gunk off my windshield that a truck splattered on it and there's a guy yelling at me.

[bugo]

Agreed.  Notice that most of the cheering for this measure (here, at least) is not coming from folks from New Jersey.  I am very glad to have someone pump for me in the cold or rain.

The gas pumps in New Jersey don't have canopies over them?

If it's cold, I put a jacket on. 3 minutes in the cold isn't going to kill me.

[bugo]

Somewhere in the past, I heard the argument that the attendants end up paying for themselves by greatly reducing the chances of a customer driving off without paying.  But if that's the case, wouldn't stations everywhere be more likely to offer or even require full service in their own economic interest? 

Pay at the pump and prepay eliminate the problem of drive offs. Back when I worked at a c-store, some customers (usually rich assholes driving German sedans) would come in when I was helping a customer and demand that I turn the pump on. It delighted me to no end to tell them that I couldn't do that and they would have to prepay.

When traveling in NJ, the only time it really bothers me is when I'm sitting there waiting for several minutes for someone to start pumping or to replace my gas cap when I'm perfectly capable.  I'm also a little uneasy at times handing my credit card over because some of the attendants leave the card half way in the reader the whole time the gas is pumping.  Not sure what the point of that would be - I don't need to swipe my card twice when I pay at the pump everywhere else.

I don't trust some pump jockey with my credit card. They could easily scribble down (or remember) the number and use it to pay for porn or whatever pump jockeys in New Jersey do.

If I ever visit New Jersey, I'll be sure I have a full tank before I even enter the state.

[Pete from Boston]

Reminds me of this, which has now become a new book:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/opinion/sunday/our-unpaid-extra-shadow-work.html?referrer=&_r=0

Our Unpaid, Extra Shadow Work
By CRAIG LAMBERT
OCTOBER 29, 2011

The conventional wisdom is that America has become a "service economy,"  but actually, in many sectors, "service"  is disappearing. There was a time when a gas station attendant would routinely fill your tank and even check your oil and clean your windshield and rear window without charge, then settle your bill. Today, all those jobs have been transferred to the customer: we pump our own gas, squeegee our own windshield, and pay our own bill by swiping a credit card. Where customers once received service from the service station, they now provide "self-service"  – a synonym for "no service."  Technology enables this sleight of hand, which lets gas stations cut their payrolls, having co-opted their patrons into doing these jobs without pay.

Examples abound, helping drive unemployment rates. Airports now have self-service check-in kiosks that allow travelers to perform the jobs of ticket agents. Travel agents once unearthed, perused and compared fares, deals and hotel rates. Shadow-working travelers now do all of this themselves on their computer screens. Medical patients are now better informed than ever – as a result of hours of online shadow work. In 1998, the Internal Revenue Service estimated that taxpayers spent six billion hours per year on "tax compliance activities."  That's serious shadow work, the equivalent of three million full-time jobs.

[bugo]

Not once has anyone said they had to move back to Jersey because they couldn't deal with the pressures of pumping their own gas.

It is also safe to assume people are not leaving New Jersey for the freedom to pump gas.

If I were in NJ close to the border, I'd go out of state to get gas just because I'm a contrarian and I'm stubborn enough to go out of my way just to prove a point to myself.

[bugo]

When people state there could be jobs lost, they rarely look at the jobs found.  Going back to the EZ Pass example - yes, toll booth attendants are less in demand.  But EZ Pass didn't create itself - there's a huge number of jobs in the technology, customer service, construction and maintenance positions dealing with EZ Pass.  It wouldn't be surprising if EZ Pass actually created a net increase in jobs. 

There are going to be even more jobs when E-Z Pass has to upgrade their systems to passive RFID technology like most of the rest of the country's tolling systems.

[Zeffy]

I don't trust some pump jockey with my credit card. They could easily scribble down (or remember) the number and use it to pay for porn or whatever pump jockeys in New Jersey do.

If I ever visit New Jersey, I'll be sure I have a full tank before I even enter the state.

Unless you're in a really bad area, the pump jockeys are usually just high-school kids trying to make a living. (Even then, the people who have jobs in bad areas usually aren't the troublemakers) Not once has my parent's card been used for purchases without their consent because a gas station attendant used it.

[Pete from Boston]

Not once has anyone said they had to move back to Jersey because they couldn't deal with the pressures of pumping their own gas.

It is also safe to assume people are not leaving New Jersey for the freedom to pump gas.

If I were in NJ close to the border, I'd go out of state to get gas just because I'm a contrarian and I'm stubborn enough to go out of my way just to prove a point to myself.

You'd pay substantially more in New York, the only state with a border one can easily duck across for gas from New Jersey.  When I lived near this line I routinely saw 50-60¢/gal. differences.  The point you would be making most clearly might be about your judgement.

It should be noted in this discussion that New Jersey's gas is today among the cheapest in the Northeast.

[Zeffy]

It should be noted in this discussion that New Jersey's gas is today among the cheapest in the Northeast.

Why else would Pennsylvanians and New Yorkers who live close to New Jersey constantly come here for gas? 

[briantroutman]

It should be noted in this discussion that New Jersey's gas is today among the cheapest in the Northeast.

Because its gasoline tax is less than half of either the two states it's sandwiched between. Which has absolutely nothing to do with its antiquated laws requiring full service.

[bzakharin]

One thing I never thought about is that here in NJ there seems to be a big difference between cash and credit prices for gas (up to 5%). I bet the difference does not go away if self serve is allowed (I don't know how much of difference if any the attenedants get to keep. Logically they spend more time counting your cash, giving change, etc). You can't pay cash at the pump. I know many people (including myself) who only ever pay cash now. I wonder how many switch to credit because of the inconvenience.

[jeffandnicole]

Wawa actually violates the law in my opinion.  Again, full service is here in part because attendants can make sure the car is functioning properly, which includes checking oil, etc.  Yet Wawa has stickers that say their attendants are only trained in the dispensing of fuel, and can't do other maintenance-type work.

While oil checks, cleaning windshields, etc. are part of the traditional "full service" package, does the law require anything more than dispensing fuel?

IIRC, Oregon gas stations sometimes describe themselves as "mini-serve", to head off any expectations that the pump jockeys will do anything more than dispense fuel and collect payment.

Is there a law per se, explicitly stating that someone must check oil, wash windows, etc (or do it upon demand of the customer)?  It doesn't appear there is.  However, written within the statutes is this:

34:3A-4.     Findings, declarations     

     The Legislature finds and declares that...

     " h.   Even in filling stations which offer both self-service and full-service gasoline, customers are less likely, because of the much higher price usually charged for full service, to have attendants make needed maintenance checks, thus causing significant neglect of maintenance and danger both to the customers and to other motorists, as well as the unneeded costly repairs which often result from deferred maintenance;"

So the law certainly implies the benefits of maintaining full service.  If there's no one available to check the oil upon demand, then the intent of the full service law isn't being met, even though there's no penalty involved.

I'm going to present all of 34:3A-4 here, only because some of the 'findings' are laughable at best:

The Legislature finds and declares that:

    a.   Because of the fire hazards directly associated with dispensing fuel, it is in the public interest that gasoline station operators have the control needed over that activity to ensure compliance with appropriate safety procedures, including turning off vehicle engines and refraining from smoking while fuel is dispensed; 

    b.   At self-service gasoline stations in other states, cashiers are often unable to maintain a clear view of the activities of customers dispensing gasoline, or to give their undivided attention to observing customers; therefore, when customers, rather than attendants, are permitted to dispense fuel, it is far more difficult to enforce compliance with safety procedures; 

    c.   The State needs stronger measures to enforce both compliance by customers with the ban on self-service and compliance by attendants with safety procedures;

    d.   The higher general liability insurance premium rates charged to self-service stations reflect the fact that customers who leave their vehicles to dispense gasoline or other inflammable liquids face significant inconveniences and dangers, including the risks of crime and fall-related personal injury, which are a special burden to drivers with physical infirmities, such as the handicapped and some senior citizens; 

    e.   Exposure to toxic gasoline fumes represents a health hazard when customers dispense their own gasoline, particularly in the case of pregnant women;

    f.   The significantly higher prices usually charged for full-service gasoline in states where self-service is permitted results in discrimination against low income individuals, who are under greater economic pressure to undergo the inconvenience and hazards of dispensing their own gasoline; 

    g.   The increasing use of self-service has contributed to the diminished availability of repair facilities and maintenance services at gasoline stations;

    h.   Even in filling stations which offer both self-service and full-service gasoline, customers are less likely, because of the much higher price usually charged for full service, to have attendants make needed maintenance checks, thus causing significant neglect of maintenance and danger both to the customers and to other motorists, as well as the unneeded costly repairs which often result from deferred maintenance; 

    i.   The prohibition of customer self-service does not constitute a restraint of trade in derogation of the general public interest because the Legislature finds no conclusive evidence that self-service gasoline provides a sustained reduction in gasoline prices charged to customers; and 

    j.   A prohibition of self-service gasoline will therefore promote the common welfare by providing increased safety and convenience without causing economic harm to the public in general.

[jeffandnicole]

One thing I never thought about is that here in NJ there seems to be a big difference between cash and credit prices for gas (up to 5%). I bet the difference does not go away if self serve is allowed (I don't know how much of difference if any the attenedants get to keep. Logically they spend more time counting your cash, giving change, etc). You can't pay cash at the pump. I know many people (including myself) who only ever pay cash now. I wonder how many switch to credit because of the inconvenience.

I've seen about 10 cents different at most (which is close to the 5% you mentioned).  The reasoning is for the fees incurred by the credit card companies at gas stations, and none of it would go to the attendants.  Again, it has nothing to do with full/self service. 

NJ requires gas stations to display both the cash and credit price if the cash price is displayed.  (Florida for example allows the cash price to be posted, with a tiny sign stating credit price may be higher.)  So if a patron wants to pay with credit and doesn't want to pay a higher price, they are free to find a gas station with same price cash/credit.

Technically, it's a cash discount, not a penalty for using a credit card.  Although in my observations, the cash price is the same as the nearby cash/credit same price stations, and the credit price is 10 cents or so higher.

[storm2k]

Not once has anyone said they had to move back to Jersey because they couldn't deal with the pressures of pumping their own gas.

It is also safe to assume people are not leaving New Jersey for the freedom to pump gas.

It is more fair to assume that we're not because not only is the gas more expensive on the other side, we'll also have to pay a toll just to get out.

[bugo]

How many fires are caused per year due to improper pumping of gas? It can't be that many, and the ones that do happen have to be because of some idiot smoking while he's pumping.

[bing101]

 
Dang Gas Station attendants are Targets in Long Island. But not shocking.

Correction made.

[Brandon]

How many fires are caused per year due to improper pumping of gas? It can't be that many, and the ones that do happen have to be because of some idiot smoking while he's pumping.

Fires during fueling usually happen for the following reasons:

1. Smoking during fueling.
2. Leaving the gasoline engine running during fueling (note, does not apply to diesel engines).
3. Reentering the vehicle during fueling and not grounding oneself prior to touching the fuel hose.
4. Filling a portable container of gasoline on the bed of a truck or in a trunk instead of on the ground.

1 is just plain stupid around any volatile substance such as gasoline.  Smoking around turpentine can give similar results.
2 can cause a fire due to the sparks in a gasoline engine.  Note that diesel engines use compression, not sparks, and can be left running while fueling.
3 is due to the static buildup and later discharge causing a spark.
4 is an observation I myself have seen complete morons do.  Jerrycans need to be grounded in fill properly.

Note, cell phones have never caused a fire or an explosion at a gasoline filling station.  They may cause distraction, but they cannot cause a fire or explosion.

[texaskdog]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-18/n-j-lawmakers-propose-bill-to-allow-voluntary-self-serve-gas

Not sure what to make of this. On the one hand, the law is terribly antiquated. On the other, it doesn't seem to add too much to the price of gas, and is very convenient during the winter. I don't see the full service requirement lasting very long if the law passes.

The average person doesn't know enough about gas safety to be pumping gas.  More power to NJ!

[bzakharin]

I've seen about 10 cents different at most (which is close to the 5% you mentioned).  The reasoning is for the fees incurred by the credit card companies at gas stations, and none of it would go to the attendants.  Again, it has nothing to do with full/self service. 

In which case the difference is unlikely to go away if self service is allowed

if a patron wants to pay with credit and doesn't want to pay a higher price, they are free to find a gas station with same price cash/credit.

Although in my observations, the cash price is the same as the nearby cash/credit same price stations, and the credit price is 10 cents or so higher.

First, there isn't always a nearby station that charges same price. Second, while prices at same price stations are usualy slightly lower than nearby credit card prices, they are almost always higher than the cash prices

[bing101]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-18/n-j-lawmakers-propose-bill-to-allow-voluntary-self-serve-gas

Not sure what to make of this. On the one hand, the law is terribly antiquated. On the other, it doesn't seem to add too much to the price of gas, and is very convenient during the winter. I don't see the full service requirement lasting very long if the law passes.

The average person doesn't know enough about gas safety to be pumping gas.  More power to NJ!

What California has been doing Self Service gas for 68 years and normal. The First Self Service gas open in 1947 in Los Angeles. I'm Shocked at this.

[NJRoadfan]

Dang Gas Station attendants are Targets in New Jersey. But not shocking.

Except it happened on Long Island.

[Zeffy]

Dang Gas Station attendants are Targets in New Jersey. But not shocking.

Except it happened on Long Island.

Not to mention most acts of violence are because the people involved know each other in some way...