NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway go MUTCD!

[kphoger]

New Jersey is still stuck on those bridges.  Even NYC has moved away from that - signs that used to use the GWB and Triborough Bridge now use Trenton and Queens...

There isn't really anything wrong with using the bridge as the destination, it allows you to know as an outsider where each road goes, 676 and 76 could both be signed as Philadelphia, just one would Be Camden Philladelphia and the other Glouschester City Philadelphia

I imagine the number of "outsiders" who know the names of bridges in a given region would be pretty small.

[NE2]

I imagine the number of "outsiders" who know the names of bridges in a given region would be pretty small.

[SteveG1988]

New Jersey is still stuck on those bridges.  Even NYC has moved away from that - signs that used to use the GWB and Triborough Bridge now use Trenton and Queens...

There isn't really anything wrong with using the bridge as the destination, it allows you to know as an outsider where each road goes, 676 and 76 could both be signed as Philadelphia, just one would Be Camden Philladelphia and the other Glouschester City Philadelphia

I imagine the number of "outsiders" who know the names of bridges in a given region would be pretty small.

Yes, but when the road (I-295) is the local road you can expect stuff like this.

Also most through traffic on the NJTP is heading to NY via the GWB or Lincoln Tunnel

[SignBridge]

Right kphoger; that's the reason the MUTCD encourages use of city names for destinations.

[NJRoadfan]

Apparently California still hasn't figured out how to put exit tabs on signs either.

[kkt]

I imagine the number of "outsiders" who know the names of bridges in a given region would be pretty small.

In most cases, they'll know the bridge name a lot better than the route number.

[roadman65]

I hope that when they update the signs on the Northbound Eastern Spur, they finally include NJ 495 in the new signs.  It still is exclusively for NJ 3 and since NJ 3 was truncated back to US 1 & 9, that road was two different designations despite it being Route 495 in almost 50 years.

What they can do to satisfy both strangers and locals is to keep some exit guides saying Lincoln Tunnel/ GWB and some saying Midtown Manhattan and Uptown Manhattan- Bronx for Exits 16E and both 18's.   That will still have the traditional bridges and MUTCD satisfied with their methods.

I also hope they  finally give Southbound NJT Eastern Spur control cities for Exit 15E.  Even though the approach into Exit 15E is elevated, there was no excuse to leave out the destinations and guide signs over the years.  Heck, the Pulaski Skyway could easily have supported a much larger guide that would fit US 1 & 9 Truck along with Newark- Jersey City as it has that Exit 15E with the curved arrow now.  Then just past the diverge for Exit 15W, could have been a 2 mile guide for US 1& 9 Truck Newark- Jersey City as well.  This spot is still on solid ground.

[kphoger]

New Jersey is still stuck on those bridges.  Even NYC has moved away from that - signs that used to use the GWB and Triborough Bridge now use Trenton and Queens...

There isn't really anything wrong with using the bridge as the destination, it allows you to know as an outsider where each road goes, 676 and 76 could both be signed as Philadelphia, just one would Be Camden Philladelphia and the other Glouschester City Philadelphia

I imagine the number of "outsiders" who know the names of bridges in a given region would be pretty small.

Yes, but when the road (I-295) is the local road you can expect stuff like this.

Also most through traffic on the NJTP is heading to NY via the GWB or Lincoln Tunnel

If it's for local traffic, then why did you mention it being useful to outsiders?
I don't think it's a good idea to sign Interstates with only local drivers in mind.

In most cases, they'll know the bridge name a lot better than the route number.

How do you figure?  Route numbers are on all sorts of maps, whereas bridge names are only on a few.  I couldn't have told you where the Del Mem Br is, and I doubt anyone I know could have either.  But if I had flown into New York or Philadelphia and found myself driving 295 toward Baltimore, you can bet I'd find Delaware, Baltimore, or Washington on the sign to be lot more useful.

[KEVIN_224]

Or how one of the signs after the D.M.B. reads NEWARK/BALTIMORE while heading south. Of course they mean Newark, DE near the Maryland border. If the University wasn't in that city, I'm sure the sign would've just said BALTIMORE instead (they pronounce it new-ARK, while I only say NEW-irk like New Jersey does).

P.S. The bridge connects Pennsville, NJ and New Castle, DE.

[vdeane]

I imagine the number of "outsiders" who know the names of bridges in a given region would be pretty small.

To those who think place names are more helpful than bridge names: I don't have the slightest clue what is on the other side of those bridges.  I know San Francisco, the bridges, and that's it.

[agentsteel53]

To those who think place names are more helpful than bridge names: I don't have the slightest clue what is on the other side of those bridges.  I know San Francisco, the bridges, and that's it.

I'm not sure if you are arguing in favor of, or opposed to, the bridges being replaced with, say "Santa Rosa" and "Oakland". 

Oakland is pretty important.  Santa Rosa really isn't.  a lot of traffic taking the Bay Bridge is going to Oakland.  Traffic taking the Golden Gate could be going anywhere - Santa Rosa, Napa, Sausalito, Eureka, or even avoiding the East Bay and getting to places on I-5 or I-80 via 37.  (I do not recommend this.  37 is a "stupor two" - two lane with no passing, enforced by cones.)

[Steve D]

On a slightly related topic I've noticed the NJ Turnpike web site still lists

"There's No food available on the New Jersey Turnpike northbound at Grover Cleveland Service Area in Woodbridge Twp until further notice".

This started with superstorm Sandy - what happened?  Was the building damaged or flooded?  Seems so unusual so far away from the shore, and very unusual for the Turnpike to not offer food at all, especially for such a long time.

[Alps]

To those who think place names are more helpful than bridge names: I don't have the slightest clue what is on the other side of those bridges.  I know San Francisco, the bridges, and that's it.

Holland Tunnel - Manhattan
Lincoln Tunnel - Manhattan
Geo Washington Br - Manhattan

Goethals Br - Staten Island
Outerbridge Cr - Staten Island

This is why they're signed as bridges, because multiple bridges lead to the same city. As per the MUTCD, when you are in an urban area and are signing roads by name, you don't sign destination information, only the name. That's exactly what's going on here.

[roadman65]

On a slightly related topic I've noticed the NJ Turnpike web site still lists

"There's No food available on the New Jersey Turnpike northbound at Grover Cleveland Service Area in Woodbridge Twp until further notice".

This started with superstorm Sandy - what happened?  Was the building damaged or flooded?  Seems so unusual so far away from the shore, and very unusual for the Turnpike to not offer food at all, especially for such a long time.

Sandy did do damage around Northern New Jersey.  There was overturned rail cars on the Turnpike itself north of that Service Facility from the parallel railroad that is next to the NJT, so it could have damaged the building easily.

[Mr. Matté]

There was overturned rail cars on the Turnpike itself north of that Service Facility from the parallel railroad that is next to the NJT, so it could have damaged the building easily.

...except that railroad runs nowhere near the service plaza. Unless some railcar did damage the plaza, in which case I wonder how my aunt, uncle, and two cousins survived since they live in nearby Sewaren.

[SteveG1988]

Or perhaps the service plaza is closed in preperation for a remodeling, sometimes a storm gives you an oppertunity to put off a delayed project?

[djsinco]

I found info on the web (I could search again, find the source and cite it, if anyone really cares,) that states the service plaza was flooded by Sandy, and repairs are "underway," and the reopening is "imminent."

[roadman65]

There was overturned rail cars on the Turnpike itself north of that Service Facility from the parallel railroad that is next to the NJT, so it could have damaged the building easily.

...except that railroad runs nowhere near the service plaza. Unless some railcar did damage the plaza, in which case I wonder how my aunt, uncle, and two cousins survived since they live in nearby Sewaren.

I was making the point that the AREA was also effected by Sandy.   The pronoun "it" referred to the noun "Sandy" in the line you edited out.

[NJRoadfan]

Per lane diagram signing is appearing on the GSP (Exit 142 B-C northbound shown), so that big signing contract is well underway. No rounded corners on this one either.



The friend who took this picture thought it was confusing. Definitely not one of the popular additions to the 2009 MUTCD. Button copy fans better get out there quick, whatever is left of NJDOT era signing is likely going to vanish quickly.

[Don'tKnowYet]

The friend who took this picture thought it was confusing. Definitely not one of the popular additions to the 2009 MUTCD. Button copy fans better get out there quick, whatever is left of NJDOT era signing is likely going to vanish quickly.

How could this possibly be confusing?  Does someone think the northbound GSP suddenly vanishes at I-78?  The sign says the right lane exits to I-78 westbound and the penultimate right lane is shared to both movements.  I'm not saying that the sign concept isn't unpopular, but to say that the sign is confusing with a confirming downstream EXIT ONLY is surprising.  I think the sign does a good job for the site conditions.

Looking at Google Earth, a span structure that would touchdown in the median to accommodate the GSP northbound thru arrows is probably not worth the cost.  I think they thought the thru movement was intuitive.  A span across both roadways looks out of the question.  The fact that they mounted it to the bridge means that a cantilever to accommodate the thru movement was also out of the question so there must be something wrong with the median there.

I like it.  They had nothing there for 2 years I think.  Something is better than nothing for an interstate-to-interstate connection.

[vdeane]

If you're not familiar with arrow-per-lane signs, I can see where this one is confusing.  Because there are no arrows for the through lanes, if you don't know the arrows correspond to the lanes already, one might assume that the split arrow was meant not for the lane but for Maplewood Hillside.

[SignBridge]

The sign is not Manual compliant for a couple of reasons. First, arrows for the thru lanes are required, even if it means a very wide sign. That's part of the concept. Second, being as Exit-142C is a "lane-drop" this advance sign is required to show that info as per the 2009 MUTCD and previous editions as well.

I'm not sure if this section of the GSP is NJTA or NJDOT signed. I have observed for many years that NJDOT has a history of not properly signing lane-drops. A glaring example is I-280 eastbound at the exit for C.R. 508, in Kearny, just before the Turnpike interchange. You don't know that's a lane-drop 'til you find yourself taking the exit without intending to. What cloud is NJDOT on?

[roadman65]

The sign is not Manual compliant for a couple of reasons. First, arrows for the thru lanes are required, even if it means a very wide sign. That's part of the concept. Second, being as Exit-142C is a "lane-drop" this advance sign is required to show that info as per the 2009 MUTCD and previous editions as well.

I'm not sure if this section of the GSP is NJTA or NJDOT signed. I have observed for many years that NJDOT has a history of not properly signing lane-drops. A glaring example is I-280 eastbound at the exit for C.R. 508, in Kearny, just before the Turnpike interchange. You don't know that's a lane-drop 'til you find yourself taking the exit without intending to. What cloud is NJDOT on?

I am glad you brought up the fact that NJDOT is poor on lane drops.  For years in Elizabeth where the SB right lane exited onto Elizabeth Avenue before the Elizabeth River Viaduct was rebuilt there was no warnings that the lane drop, but a flashing yellow gore light at the point of diversion.

In addition, at I-78 Westbound at I-287 the right lane dropped as well onto I-287 without warning, although overhead there was a "KEEP LEFT" on the I-78 pull through, but still not your standard warning.  When I was there last Summer, I noticed they did restripe the lanes at Exit 29, but no lane control or supplementary signs were posted that I could have saw then.

Then in Somerville, the left exit off US 22 Eastbound for I-287 has the left lane drop with no typical lane drop signing either. 

NJDOT believes that most motorists are locals and therefore cater to what they believe hence the new mileage signs with bedroom community townships over the control cities of the large cities the roads service, hence Ewing on I-295 Northbound instead of Trenton or Bedminster on I-78 when it has no signed exit for it along the route.  Plus some of the protected left turns without arrows at some  signalized intersections that would confuse a tourist real easy.

[deathtopumpkins]

NJDOT believes that most motorists are locals

Most motorists are locals.

[akotchi]

The entire Parkway is signed by NJTA . . . long ago, the DOT section ended around mile 138, I think.

What I find interesting is the bridge-mount.  The Authority frowns on those now, but there must not have been any other way to put it up.

The sign itself does not appear to be strictly compliant, but it is appropriate for the condition and probably the most effective (from many perspectives) way to provide the guidance.  This condition does not necessarily fit the diagrams in the Manual.  (I find that the diagrams tend to be much simpler than the field condition, so engineering judgment factors heavily for these situations.) 

By the way, is it possible this was designed and installed as part of the Missing Ramps contract, rather than the "big signing contract"?

To SignBridge's comment above, the I-280 situation actually also has a choice lane, which makes it even worse.  I see that every time I ride the train to New York on business.