Philadelphia

[ekt8750]

Drove down I-676 last night  and all new signs have been hung up on the rebuilt portion west of Broad St. On the east end with the interchange with I-95, all of the signs for 95 have had their Trenton controls replaced with New York by greenouts which leads me to the new sign for I-95 that was put up on 676 East coming off of I-76. Whoever designed the sign had no forethought at all for the completion of 95 as it lists controls for Trenton and Chester instead of New York.

[PHLBOS]

Drove down I-676 last night  and all new signs have been hung up on the rebuilt portion west of Broad St. On the east end with the interchange with I-95, all of the signs for 95 have had their Trenton controls replaced with New York by greenouts which leads me to the new sign for I-95 that was put up on 676 East coming off of I-76. Whoever designed the sign had no forethought at all for the completion of 95 as it lists controls for Trenton and Chester instead of New York.

I mentioned similar on the I-95/PA Turnpike interchange thread and I'll repeat here.

Guess on my part, the replacing Trenton with New York signs for those ramps signs may have been a more recent development/last-minute (& unnecessary IMHO) change.  In theory/principle, the continuation of using Trenton for those I-95 northbound signs up the new interchange would've still been valid because the Delaware Expressway (at least up to the US 1 Morrisville/Langhorne interchange) is still the quickest way for one to get to Trenton from Center City.  A Trenton/New York control city combo would've been a more appropriate sign change/update.

[Roadgeek2500]

Don't know about the Cardinal O'Hara parents' NIMBYism...

ixnay

This is the essential question. I'm surprised they were able to shoehorn 476 in there, but in the end all O'Hara lost was some parking space. 

[MASTERNC]

Speaking of ramp meters, PennDOT just announced the start of smart traffic systems for I-76 between King of Prussia and US 1.  The first phase will take about a year (plus 6 months of testing) and involves variable speed limits and queue detection/warning.  The shoulder lanes and ramp meters will come later.

There's now a website for the project

http://transform76.com/

[PHLBOS]

Don't know about the Cardinal O'Hara parents' NIMBYism...

ixnay

This is the essential question. I'm surprised they were able to shoehorn 476 in there, but in the end all O'Hara lost was some parking space. 

Original plans for that area included an interchange with PA 320.

[AMLNet49]

Drove down I-676 last night  and all new signs have been hung up on the rebuilt portion west of Broad St. On the east end with the interchange with I-95, all of the signs for 95 have had their Trenton controls replaced with New York by greenouts which leads me to the new sign for I-95 that was put up on 676 East coming off of I-76. Whoever designed the sign had no forethought at all for the completion of 95 as it lists controls for Trenton and Chester instead of New York.

Is 676 still signed as an "exit"  when it goes down to the lights?

[jeffandnicole]

Whoever designed the (95) sign had no forethought at all for the completion of 95 as it lists controls for Trenton and Chester instead of New York.

I've seen this quite often in NJ where two overlapping projects have no coordination whatsoever.  The two project teams might as well have been in different countries.  You would think that at some point along a project's design, someone in DOT would've said "Hey, why are we still using 'Trenton' on this sign?

[ekt8750]

Drove down I-676 last night  and all new signs have been hung up on the rebuilt portion west of Broad St. On the east end with the interchange with I-95, all of the signs for 95 have had their Trenton controls replaced with New York by greenouts which leads me to the new sign for I-95 that was put up on 676 East coming off of I-76. Whoever designed the sign had no forethought at all for the completion of 95 as it lists controls for Trenton and Chester instead of New York.

Is 676 still signed as an "exit"  when it goes down to the lights?

Technically yes. There's no exit tab on the BGS as 676 doesn't have numbered exits in PA but yeah there's still a gore sign there.

[PHLBOS]

Whoever designed the (95) sign had no forethought at all for the completion of 95 as it lists controls for Trenton and Chester instead of New York.

I've seen this quite often in NJ where two overlapping projects have no coordination whatsoever.  The two project teams might as well have been in different countries.  You would think that at some point along a project's design, someone in DOT would've said "Hey, why are we still using 'Trenton' on this sign?

A couple of things:

1.  Those I-95 ramps signs along I-676 are the original ones that date back to the opening of the eastern portion of the Vine Expressway circa 1991 (the signs themselves were actually erected circa 1990 prior to the highway opening with the ones nearest to active roadways being covered).

2.  As previously stated, and forgive me for sounding like a broken record, the decision to replace the Trenton legends with New York ones was likely made very recently.  The original thought was since the highway itself, the Delaware Expressway, will still be the main access from Center City to the Trenton area regardless of the highway changing numbers along the way (due to the I-95 rerouting); why change it (or provide wider spacings on signs)?

[jeffandnicole]

Whoever designed the (95) sign had no forethought at all for the completion of 95 as it lists controls for Trenton and Chester instead of New York.

I've seen this quite often in NJ where two overlapping projects have no coordination whatsoever.  The two project teams might as well have been in different countries.  You would think that at some point along a project's design, someone in DOT would've said "Hey, why are we still using 'Trenton' on this sign?

A couple of things:

1.  Those I-95 ramps signs along I-676 are the original ones that date back to the opening of the eastern portion of the Vine Expressway circa 1991 (the signs themselves were actually erected circa 1990 prior to the highway opening with the ones nearest to active roadways being covered).

2.  As previously stated, and forgive me for sounding like a broken record, the decision to replace the Trenton legends with New York ones was likely made very recently.  The original thought was since the highway itself, the Delaware Expressway, will still be the main access from Center City to the Trenton area regardless of the highway changing numbers along the way (due to the I-95 rerouting); why change it (or provide wider spacings on signs)?

The way ekt8750 put it, they were brand new signs just installed.  If they were 17 year old signs, then yeah there would be no reason to have forethought for such a signage change.

[PHLBOS]

The way ekt8750 put it, they were brand new signs just installed.  If they were 17 year old signs, then yeah there would be no reason to have forethought for such a signage change.

Trust me, those I-95 signs along I-676 and 7th Street are indeed the original 1990-91 vintage signs that just had New York masked over Trenton.

Personally, this BGS would've been a prime candidate for my Trenton - New York control city pair recommendation (such would have to be placed horizontally (there's room) rather than the traditional vertical stack).

[AMLNet49]

Drove down I-676 last night  and all new signs have been hung up on the rebuilt portion west of Broad St. On the east end with the interchange with I-95, all of the signs for 95 have had their Trenton controls replaced with New York by greenouts which leads me to the new sign for I-95 that was put up on 676 East coming off of I-76. Whoever designed the sign had no forethought at all for the completion of 95 as it lists controls for Trenton and Chester instead of New York.

Is 676 still signed as an "exit"  when it goes down to the lights?

Technically yes. There's no exit tab on the BGS as 676 doesn't have numbered exits in PA but yeah there's still a gore sign there.

True but with the old signs it was signed as "exit only" on the BGSs as well instead of like a split. I was wondering if the new signage has 676 is still an "exit only". TBH I wonder how many people in the area (I dont know too many philly people compared to NY or DC) even realize 676 continues into NJ

[jeffandnicole]

Drove down I-676 last night  and all new signs have been hung up on the rebuilt portion west of Broad St. On the east end with the interchange with I-95, all of the signs for 95 have had their Trenton controls replaced with New York by greenouts which leads me to the new sign for I-95 that was put up on 676 East coming off of I-76. Whoever designed the sign had no forethought at all for the completion of 95 as it lists controls for Trenton and Chester instead of New York.

Is 676 still signed as an “exit” when it goes down to the lights?

Technically yes. There's no exit tab on the BGS as 676 doesn't have numbered exits in PA but yeah there's still a gore sign there.

True but with the old signs it was signed as "exit only" on the BGSs as well instead of like a split. I was wondering if the new signage has 676 is still an "exit only". TBH I wonder how many people in the area (I dont know too many philly people compared to NY or DC) even realize 676 continues into NJ

I think a lot do because I-676 is about 5 or 6 miles long in NJ, fully signed.

[ekt8750]

Yeah the signs at the I-95 interchange are still the original one with New York greenouts placed over the Trenton lettering. That said, the sign they put up on the rebuilt 23rd St overpass for I-95 reads "Trenton/Chester" even though it should have been redesigned before it was manufactured.

[ekt8750]

Drove down I-676 last night  and all new signs have been hung up on the rebuilt portion west of Broad St. On the east end with the interchange with I-95, all of the signs for 95 have had their Trenton controls replaced with New York by greenouts which leads me to the new sign for I-95 that was put up on 676 East coming off of I-76. Whoever designed the sign had no forethought at all for the completion of 95 as it lists controls for Trenton and Chester instead of New York.

Is 676 still signed as an "exit"  when it goes down to the lights?

Technically yes. There's no exit tab on the BGS as 676 doesn't have numbered exits in PA but yeah there's still a gore sign there.

True but with the old signs it was signed as "exit only" on the BGSs as well instead of like a split. I was wondering if the new signage has 676 is still an "exit only". TBH I wonder how many people in the area (I dont know too many philly people compared to NY or DC) even realize 676 continues into NJ

I think a lot do because I-676 is about 5 or 6 miles long in NJ, fully signed.

That and PennDOT does sign 6th St as I-676 and US 30 as does DRPA with the Ben Franklin Bridge.

[tckma]

Howdy!  Not new to roadgeeking, but perhaps new to the PA Forum Topic.  Maybe I posted here a few years ago, maybe not.

Anyhow... back story... I got laid off at the end of March.  I found a new job (actually two new jobs, but that's a longer story... one starts after the other ends, basically).

This job is short-term contract work.  During the work week, I'll be staying at a hotel in the Philadelphia area, and the job is in King of Prussia.  I'll be home in Maryland on weekends.  This will be for, at most, one year.

I started the job on Monday.

The hotel I have chosen for this week necessitates what I thought was a reverse commute on the PA Turnpike.  I noticed something funny over the 2 round-trips I made from KoP to my hotel.  There's a road -- and I forget the name of it -- over the Turnpike.  The bridge is stenciled with "U.S. 422" in what looks like very old lettering.  The problem?  As far as I can tell, it's NOT US 422, but is rather about 5 or 6 miles EAST of US 422.  I assume this is due to a re-alignment of the route in days gone by.  So... why not get rid of the stencil when the (steel) bridge was painted over?  I assume steel bridges are repainted every so many years as general bridge maintenance?

Then again, this IS Pennsylvania, where they don't seem to believe in spending tax dollars on maintaining good roads -- which you can always tell the instant you cross over the Mason-Dixon line from Maryland at pretty much any point.  *ducks to avoid flying Keystone-shaped reassurance markers*

Also, what the heck is up with the reverse commute traffic?  I'm driving TOWARD Philadelphia in the afternoon... or so I think... EAST on the Turnpike... and yet we have bumper-to-bumper traffic at 5:30-ish PM from roughly KoP to exit 339, whereas the other side of the Turnpike (what I would think would be people coming home from work) is pretty clear.  In the morning, I haven't hit much traffic, but this was prior to 7:00 AM and I've only done it this morning, so far.

[ipeters61]

Also, what the heck is up with the reverse commute traffic?  I'm driving TOWARD Philadelphia in the afternoon... or so I think... EAST on the Turnpike... and yet we have bumper-to-bumper traffic at 5:30-ish PM from roughly KoP to exit 339, whereas the other side of the Turnpike (what I would think would be people coming home from work) is pretty clear.  In the morning, I haven't hit much traffic, but this was prior to 7:00 AM and I've only done it this morning, so far.

Don't want to get too political, but I have an uncle who lives in the Norristown/KOP area but works over in the Exton/West Chester area.  He's also a business owner (software developer) who used to live in Philadelphia.  He told me that the city has such a bizarre and frustrating tax system that lots of businesses decide to just go to the suburbs instead - which is why he moved to the suburbs.  Further, I'm sure the concentration of businesses around the suburbs occurred for the same reason as in other places: plenty of land, close to the highways, and at the time that land was probably cheaper than land in the city, allowing them to build office campuses which were gigantic.  I remember I had an interview at IKEA's American logistics office in KOP and I'm sure I was driving in that complex for a solid 5 minutes at least.

I also have an aunt who lives in Philadelphia but takes the SEPTA regional rail to the suburbs everyday for work.  Likewise, when I went to the University of Delaware, I had some friends who chose to live in Philadelphia instead (PhD students working on their dissertations so they only needed to be in DE for a few days a week), taking the SEPTA as well.  I assume in their cases it's just that they preferred living in a city.  I used to live next to Newark's SEPTA station and that train unloaded like crazy every day at 7-8am (and it was rush hour only service).

[roadman65]

Howdy!  Not new to roadgeeking, but perhaps new to the PA Forum Topic.  Maybe I posted here a few years ago, maybe not.

Anyhow... back story... I got laid off at the end of March.  I found a new job (actually two new jobs, but that's a longer story... one starts after the other ends, basically).

This job is short-term contract work.  During the work week, I'll be staying at a hotel in the Philadelphia area, and the job is in King of Prussia.  I'll be home in Maryland on weekends.  This will be for, at most, one year.

I started the job on Monday.

The hotel I have chosen for this week necessitates what I thought was a reverse commute on the PA Turnpike.  I noticed something funny over the 2 round-trips I made from KoP to my hotel.  There's a road -- and I forget the name of it -- over the Turnpike.  The bridge is stenciled with "U.S. 422" in what looks like very old lettering.  The problem?  As far as I can tell, it's NOT US 422, but is rather about 5 or 6 miles EAST of US 422.  I assume this is due to a re-alignment of the route in days gone by.  So... why not get rid of the stencil when the (steel) bridge was painted over?  I assume steel bridges are repainted every so many years as general bridge maintenance?

Then again, this IS Pennsylvania, where they don't seem to believe in spending tax dollars on maintaining good roads -- which you can always tell the instant you cross over the Mason-Dixon line from Maryland at pretty much any point.  *ducks to avoid flying Keystone-shaped reassurance markers*

Also, what the heck is up with the reverse commute traffic?  I'm driving TOWARD Philadelphia in the afternoon... or so I think... EAST on the Turnpike... and yet we have bumper-to-bumper traffic at 5:30-ish PM from roughly KoP to exit 339, whereas the other side of the Turnpike (what I would think would be people coming home from work) is pretty clear.  In the morning, I haven't hit much traffic, but this was prior to 7:00 AM and I've only done it this morning, so far.

If its the Germantown Pike overpass it was indeed US 422 at one time.  Also it took decades for PTC to remove both US 309 and US 611 from guide signs as both were decommissioned back when the Vietnam War was going. In fact US 309 was long before US 611, but in 1983 both Fort Washington and Willow Grove still had both PA designations signed as part of the US Highway system in all text lettering.  It was not until 1984 when PTC replaced all the old signs with button copy PA shield guides (which corrected the errors on both decommissioned US designations) which ended up a few years later of going all reflective.

Anyway yes PTC and PennDOT do drag their feet as finally after 30 years they finally decided to add Trenton as a control city for US 1 north in Langhorne at the Oxford Valley Cloverleaf along I-95 which had Morrisville and no mention of Trenton until you crossed into NJ.

[PHLBOS]

There's a road -- and I forget the name of it -- over the Turnpike.  The bridge is stenciled with "U.S. 422" in what looks like very old lettering.  The problem?  As far as I can tell, it's NOT US 422, but is rather about 5 or 6 miles EAST of US 422.  I assume this is due to a re-alignment of the route in days gone by.  So... why not get rid of the stencil when the (steel) bridge was painted over?  I assume steel bridges are repainted every so many years as general bridge maintenance?

Then again, this IS Pennsylvania, where they don't seem to believe in spending tax dollars on maintaining good roads -- which you can always tell the instant you cross over the Mason-Dixon line from Maryland at pretty much any point.  *ducks to avoid flying Keystone-shaped reassurance markers*

The overpass you likely saw was Ridge Pike.  Prior to 1961, this stretch of Ridge Pike was US 422.  From 1961 to 1985, US 422 shifted over to Germantown Pike/Ave. further east (prior to 1961, Germantown Pike was ALT US 422).  Note: the Germantown Pike overpass along the Turnpike does not feature the large stenciled U.S. 422 lettering on it.  From 1985 onward, US 422 is along its current Pottstown Expressway alignment/corridor.

While the paint job along the Ridge Pike overpass appear old (GSV is from 2016); I can't believe for one minute that the overpass hasn't been repainted since the early 60s.  Even more ironic is that this stretch of Ridge Pike hasn't been a PennDOT maintained (no SR XXXX designation) roadway for quite some time (possibly as far back as when US 422 was rerouted onto Germantown Pike).  It's locally maintained beyond the overpass abutments.

More detailed info. regarding US 422's history (& other historic US routes) in the Greater Philly area can be found here.

[Beltway]

The overpass you likely saw was Ridge Pike. 

One of the bridges where PTC cheaped out on the Six-Lane Widening project in the late 1980s and didn't replace the bridge, thereby provided a right shoulder only about 3 feet wide.  It was and is customary everwhere on an Interstate widening project to replace the overpass when its spans are not long enough for the widened roadway and full shoulders.  PTC itself has done that on the more recent six-laning projects.

[PHLBOS]

One of the bridges where PTC cheaped out on the Six-Lane Widening project in the late 1980s and didn't replace the bridge, thereby provided a right shoulder only about 3 feet wide.  It was and is customary everwhere on an Interstate widening project to replace the overpass when its spans are not long enough for the widened roadway and full shoulders.  PTC itself has done that on the more recent six-laning projects.

I'm as much of a PTC critic as everyone else here but the more recent 6-lane widening projects I've seen (examples: Northeast Extension (I-476) south of Lansdale/Exit 31/PA 63 and E-W Turnpike (I-76) between Harrisburg East & West interchanges (I-283/PA 283 & I-83 respectively)) indeed have replaced older overpasses with ones that accommodate 6-lanes with normal-size shoulders.

[Roadsguy]

The overpass you likely saw was Ridge Pike. 

One of the bridges where PTC cheaped out on the Six-Lane Widening project in the late 1980s and didn't replace the bridge, thereby provided a right shoulder only about 3 feet wide.  It was and is customary everwhere on an Interstate widening project to replace the overpass when its spans are not long enough for the widened roadway and full shoulders.  PTC itself has done that on the more recent six-laning projects.

The Ridge Pike bridge was actually part of the widening from Valley Forge to Norristown ten years ago, not the 1980s widening (which only went as far west as Norristown). The only two bridges they didn't replace over the Turnpike on the Valley Forge-Norristown widening were Allendale Road and Ridge Pike. The former makes slight sense since half the bridge was still fairly new, but I'm really not sure why they didn't replace the Ridge Pike bridge, though I believe it will be when they (eventually) connect the Lafayette Street extension to the Turnpike.

One of the bridges where PTC cheaped out on the Six-Lane Widening project in the late 1980s and didn't replace the bridge, thereby provided a right shoulder only about 3 feet wide.  It was and is customary everwhere on an Interstate widening project to replace the overpass when its spans are not long enough for the widened roadway and full shoulders.  PTC itself has done that on the more recent six-laning projects.

I'm as much of a PTC critic as everyone else here but the more recent 6-lane widening projects I've seen (examples: Northeast Extension (I-476) south of Lansdale/Exit 31/PA 63 and E-W Turnpike (I-76) between Harrisburg East & West interchanges (I-283/PA 283 & I-83 respectively)) indeed have replaced older overpasses with ones that accommodate 6-lanes with normal-size shoulders.

This is true. The newest Turnpike widenings are quite nice, with full-width inner shoulders too, which they didn't even do on the Valley Forge-Norristown widening. Even PennDOT all too often cheaps out with the inner shoulders on reconstructions (like with I-70 west of New Stanton and the PA 309 Fort Washington Expressway).

[02 Park Ave]

On the various six lane widening projects, the PTC has initiated work on them by replacing affected bridges years before any road work is started on the Turnpike itelf.

[jeffandnicole]

Here's the former US 422 Overpass. https://goo.gl/maps/rpCsh8WqrUP2 .  You see the US 422 Stenciled on the left.  On the right, you see a few more numbers stenciled, including 10-80 (zoom in to see them).  Most likely, this was painted last in October, 1980, nearly 38 years ago.

PA and its agencies are noted for their lack of painting, which is a low-cost way to maintain those bridge overpasses.  Just one of a number of reasons why PennDOT's roads are in not-so-great condition.  Admittedly their highways are much smoother than the past, but a high percentage of state and local roads aren't.

[PHLBOS]

Here's the former US 422 Overpass. https://goo.gl/maps/rpCsh8WqrUP2 .  You see the US 422 Stenciled on the left.  On the right, you see a few more numbers stenciled, including 10-80 (zoom in to see them).  Most likely, this was painted last in October, 1980, nearly 38 years ago.

Which is still some 21 years after US 422 was moved off of Ridge Pike in this area.  Had this been this been the Germantown Pike overpass further east; such still would've been valid at the time of repaint.