Modest, Surprising, or Otherwise Indistinguishable Borders

[cpzilliacus]

Traditionally, the District of Columbia didn't post any sort of welcome signs or other such things along most of the surface connections from Maryland. The main tipoff was that DC's street signs used a different style from Maryland's and included the quadrant (NW/NE/SE/SW) and a block number.

Many years ago (1960's and before), the Maryland State Roads Commission (SRC, predecessor to State Highway Administration) posted a "county line" type of sign which were once common across the state at county boundary crossings, which were black type on a white background and had ENTERING and the county name and then LEAVING and the county name.  At the points where SRC-maintenance roads like U.S. 1, Alternate U.S. 1, U.S. 29 and the old U.S. 240 (now MD-355) ended at the D.C. boundary there was such a sign, with DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA shown as ENTERING "county."  Leaving D.C. and entering Maryland (on an SRC-maintained road) the sign was reversed, with D.C. shown as the "leaving" county.

I have not seen such a sign for a very long time, presumably all are gone now.

[cpzilliacus]

Yeah, I know; the reason I mentioned that there used to be some signs there was primarily to distinguish it from the DC/Maryland side. I seem to recall once upon a time there was a "Welcome to Washington–A Capital City" sign at the east end of either the Roosevelt Bridge or Memorial Bridge (I forget which, though Memorial Bridge seems implausible due to NPS jurisdiction). But there is one area where the river is not really a "plausible geographic" thing–the crossings between Virginia and Columbia Island. None of those are marked as to DC/Virginia and for a couple of them you don't even notice you're crossing a waterway (Boundary Channel.

The "A Capital City" tagline came about during one of the administrations of the late former Mayor-for-Life of the District of Columbia, Marion Shepilov Barry, Jr. 

Regarding the Memorial Bridge, it is unlikely that there would ever have been such a sign there because all of the structure is well inside the District of Columbia.

As was mentioned in this thread, the boundary between D.C. and Virginia is at the Boundary Channel (not sure if it is the low water mark on the Virginia shore or not). I have never seen a sign marking the boundary on any of the roads entering Columbia Island from Virginia.  Fun fact - Columbia Island is home to the only arterial street name that actually crosses the boundary between Arlington County, Virginia and D.C. - VA-27, Washington Boulevard in Arlington and Washington Boulevard, S.W. in D.C. (I do not think NPS has signed it in D.C. ever, but it does show up in some GIS files and on Google Maps).

Chain Bridge Road can be found on both sides of Chain Bridge but they do not touch each other.

The George Washington Memorial Parkway also crosses happily between D.C. and Virginia, but I do not consider that an arterial, is it is more of an expressway.

NPS is generally not interested in showing state line crossings and definitely not county or municipal boundary crossings, with the exception of the Clara Barton Parkway (also mentioned upthread).   There is no sign marking the boundary on the Baltimore-Washington Parkway in either direction (that's an issue because more than once the MPD-DC have engaged in a high-speed pursuit of a car or motorcycle east on U.S. 50 (New York Avenue, N.E.) into Maryland (where the B-W Parkway begins, and then to the interchange at U.S. 50 and MD-201 in Prince George's County, where the vehicle being chased then wrecked while trying to head back into D.C. by way of MD-201 and presumably DC-295 - the ramp from U.S. 50 eastbound to MD-201 southbound is narrow and very unforgiving of speeding cars and motorcycles).

I recall such a chase that ended in a high-speed crash one evening where there were a dozen MPD-DC cars on the scene but no Prince George's County or Maryland State Police cars present, apparently the D.C. officers were not aware that they were in Maryland.  I called MSP College Park and politely suggested that they might want to dispatch a trooper or two to the scene, explaining that their services were needed there but D.C. did not seem to be aware of that - the MSP dispatcher (who knew nothing of the pursuit or the resulting crash) thanked me and sent three or four cars to the scene, a good thing since I think it was a fatal crash (that MPD-DC could not legally investigate).

Part of the problem here is that many people (correctly) equate the Maryland/D.C. border with the streets that run parallel to and (mostly) just inside D.C. - Southern Avenue, S.E./N.E., Eastern Avenue, N.E./N.W. and Western Avenue, N.W. With one or two exceptions, these streets are entirely in D.C. (there is a "frontage road" part of Eastern Avenue where D.C. borders Takoma Park, Montgomery County that is in Maryland).  So people who live on these streets on the Maryland side pay their taxes in Maryland, send children to Maryland schools and so on, but in order to go anywhere, most of them have to leave Maryland and go to the sidewalk or the street in D.C.  But some places where is no street marking the boundary, such as the Clara Barton Parkway (marked by sign), MacArthur Boulevard (marked by sign), Beach Drive, Primrose Road, N.W./Grubb Road, Maple Avenue, U.S. 50 (New York Avenue, N.E. and Baltimore-Washington Parkway), Suitland Parkway (there's a bridge that carries Southern Avenue, S.E. over the parkway and there is a D.C. welcome sign on the westbound parkway headed into D.C.) and I-295 (Anacostia Freeway), one has to know from local knowledge or GPS that they have crossed the boundary between D.C. and Maryland.

[Michael]

Wow, this thread blew up since I first saw it!  Anyway, my first thought when I saw the thread was my first (and so far only) time in Michigan.  It was quite disappointing.  In 2016, I was visiting a friend who now lives in Ohio, and we drove into Michigan just so I could say I was in the state.  I had an idea of where the border was (the pavement change wasn't as obvious at the time), but I wasn't 100% sure I was in Michigan until I saw a few yellow stoplights (here's the first one I would have seen).  If I hadn't known that Michigan stoplights are yellow, I wouldn't have known I was in Michigan.  Once we got to the post office we turned around at, I figured we had to be in Michigan at that point.  Crossing back into Ohio, there was a Toledo sign, but it was small.  I think this is where we crossed back into Ohio.

The closest border to me that fits this thread is Seneca Falls/Waterloo.  The border appears to be just before the side street on the right.  I posted somewhere on the forum a long time ago about businesses to the east having signs that read "Seneca Falls" along with the main sign and how I thought it was a local code because the border is so unclear.

Further to the west on US 20/NY 5, the eastern border of Geneva (along with the Seneca/Ontario county line) is blurry.  The border is at the brown sign on the right, but the other direction has both a county and town line sign, which can be seen across the road in the first Street View image.

Leaving Syracuse on NY 5, there's no sign (the border is at the speed limit sign), and the sign entering Syracuse is a pretty small banner on top of a "CITY SPEED LIMIT" sign.  I don't recall the blue Syracuse sign from when I was younger, so I'm guessing it's fairly new.  On the east side of Syracuse, the intersection of NY 5 and NY 635 is on the city line, and there isn't a sign heading eastbound.  I can't recall ever seeing a sign heading westbound, but it looks like there was one in the median of Erie Blvd.  A proper sign was added sometime between November 2015 and August 2019.

The little green signs on I-684 that tell you that you are "Entering Greenwich"  and "Leaving Greenwich"  when you cross in and out of CT briefly.  CTDOT typically uses them to indicate that you're entering the center of a town or a village or boro.  Also, the sign where I-86 temporarily ends at US 220 that just says "State Border" . 

I finally got to go on that section of I-86/NY 17 in 2012 if I remember right.  It was so weird to see NYSDOT bridges and box-beam guardrail in PA.  This segment of road is one that answers AlexandriaVA's question earlier:

VA/WV 102 winds across the border of the two states several times, and not all crossings are marked. There is usually a pavement seam, though.

Lots of county roads cross boundaries in Kentucky with no notation.

My hometown recently installed "city limits" signs on the state routes. In most of those cases, you'd have no idea you were entering the municipality from the county.

Does the consistent pavement imply that a single state DOT does all the maintenance (I have to assume it does). Definitely a good idea for a follow-on question (roads in which another state or jurisdiction does the maintenance).

Oh, and lastly, any county line on the NY Thruway.

[renegade]

I think this is where we crossed back into Ohio.

I used to live in the small apartment building on the right side of that streetview some thirty-five years ago!

[jakeroot]

I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

[vdeane]

The closest border to me that fits this thread is Seneca Falls/Waterloo.  The border appears to be just before the side street on the right.  I posted somewhere on the forum a long time ago about businesses to the east having signs that read "Seneca Falls" along with the main sign and how I thought it was a local code because the border is so unclear.

Hamlets don't have borders, so Seneca Falls naturally wouldn't have anything marked since the village dissolved.

[sparker]

I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

Border Wall -- we don't need no stinking border wall -- we got ourselves a Border Ditch!

[GenExpwy]

The closest border to me that fits this thread is Seneca Falls/Waterloo.  The border appears to be just before the side street on the right.  I posted somewhere on the forum a long time ago about businesses to the east having signs that read "Seneca Falls" along with the main sign and how I thought it was a local code because the border is so unclear.

Hamlets don't have borders, so Seneca Falls naturally wouldn't have anything marked since the village dissolved.

The photo is the Seneca Falls—Waterloo town line (and village of Waterloo); pan left a bit to see the back of the Seneca Falls town line sign. The former Seneca Falls village line is a mile or so away. This brings up two of the peeves I have about NYSDOT town/village line signs:

1) There is still a lot of inconsistency about whether town lines get signed. There has never been a full statewide project to sign them all, so it's just a matter of luck that a particular town line fell within a full-replacement sign project in recent decades. Even that might not be enough – several years ago, NY 63 from I-390 exit 7 to the Livingston—Wyoming county line had a paving-and-all-signs job, but the town line signs remained absent.

2) Current NYSDOT policy is to have a town line sign when leaving a village, which is wrong because the village is part of that town (and you can enter a different town without leaving a village). Leaving the Village of Dansville, the sign says "Town of North Dansville"  even though you were already in the town.
I think there should be a VILLAGE LINE sign for exiting a village (and not entering a contiguous village or city). If, by coincidence, there is also a town line, then both should be posted. In the example above, the other direction could say:

VILLAGE LINE
–––––––
TOWN OF
Seneca Falls

(and I like the old freeway standard where "COUNTY OF" , etc., was in smaller all-caps)

[mgk920]

I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

(images snipped)

How does, for example, a parent retrieve a 2-3 YO kid who runs across that street without creating an international incident (ditto Canusa St at Derby Line, VT/Stanstead, QC)?

Mike

[mgk920]

Having travelled the access road to Clingman's Dome from US 441 in the Smoky Mountains, I was unaware that it crossed the NC/TN border several times on its way to the end.  I only found that out it did when setting up my Travel Mapping file.

There is also no line drawn into the Newfound Gap parking lot at the NC/TN state line on US 441.

https://goo.gl/maps/gVmXaWC851Xmp9Yp6

Mike

[hbelkins]

Having travelled the access road to Clingman's Dome from US 441 in the Smoky Mountains, I was unaware that it crossed the NC/TN border several times on its way to the end.  I only found that out it did when setting up my Travel Mapping file.

There is also no line drawn into the Newfound Gap parking lot at the NC/TN state line on US 441.

https://goo.gl/maps/gVmXaWC851Xmp9Yp6

Mike

There used to be those wooden style National Park signs in the parking lot showing the border, with arrows pointing to the Tennessee and North Carolina sides. I may have a picture somewhere.

[jakeroot]

I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

(images snipped)

How does, for example, a parent retrieve a 2-3 YO kid who runs across that street without creating an international incident (ditto Canusa St at Derby Line, VT/Stanstead, QC)?

Probably best to just try and avoid that happening. Alternatively, don't let any border guards see it happen .

[tdindy88]

Having travelled the access road to Clingman's Dome from US 441 in the Smoky Mountains, I was unaware that it crossed the NC/TN border several times on its way to the end.  I only found that out it did when setting up my Travel Mapping file.

There is also no line drawn into the Newfound Gap parking lot at the NC/TN state line on US 441.

https://goo.gl/maps/gVmXaWC851Xmp9Yp6

Mike

There used to be those wooden style National Park signs in the parking lot showing the border, with arrows pointing to the Tennessee and North Carolina sides. I may have a picture somewhere.

Is this what you're talking about?

[kphoger]

I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

(images snipped)

How does, for example, a parent retrieve a 2-3 YO kid who runs across that street without creating an international incident (ditto Canusa St at Derby Line, VT/Stanstead, QC)?

Probably best to just try and avoid that happening. Alternatively, don't let any border guards see it happen .

I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

[vdeane]

I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I'm not sure if the phrases "reasonable" and "border agent" belong in the same sentence together.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20030216/news/302169975

[kphoger]

I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I'm not sure if the phrases "reasonable" and "border agent" belong in the same sentence together.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20030216/news/302169975

I hardly think that story is the same as a 3-year-old kid wandering across the street.  The driver didn't stop at customs and had a gun in the vehicle.

[jakeroot]

I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

(images snipped)

How does, for example, a parent retrieve a 2-3 YO kid who runs across that street without creating an international incident (ditto Canusa St at Derby Line, VT/Stanstead, QC)?

Probably best to just try and avoid that happening. Alternatively, don't let any border guards see it happen .

I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I did a fair amount of Googling before I posted my reply. The only thing close was a French citizen visiting family who jogged along the beach between White Rock, BC and Blaine, WA. She was held for two weeks. She didn't have identifying documents on her (though I don't when I run either), and was transported to Tacoma where her family had to assist her. She was eventually released back to Canada.

She was on a casual jog and was held for two weeks. I wouldn't screw around with the border.

[kphoger]

I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

(images snipped)

How does, for example, a parent retrieve a 2-3 YO kid who runs across that street without creating an international incident (ditto Canusa St at Derby Line, VT/Stanstead, QC)?

Probably best to just try and avoid that happening. Alternatively, don't let any border guards see it happen .

I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I did a fair amount of Googling before I posted my reply. The only thing close was a French citizen visiting family who jogged along the beach between White Rock, BC and Blaine, WA. She was held for two weeks. She didn't have identifying documents on her (though I don't when I run either), and was transported to Tacoma where her family had to assist her. She was eventually released back to Canada.

She was on a casual jog and was held for two weeks. I wouldn't screw around with the border.

I remember that story.

Do you leave your ID at home when jogging in the immediate vicinity of the border?

[Scott5114]

Given that she's from France and visiting Canada on holiday, she probably had no clue where the US—Canada border even was. And if she did, you don't need an ID to cross any of France's borders, so to her that question would be along the lines of "Do you leave your ID at home when jogging in the immediate vicinity of State Line Road in Kansas City?"

[kphoger]

Given that she's from France and visiting Canada on holiday, she probably had no clue where the US—Canada border even was. And if she did, you don't need an ID to cross any of France's borders, so to her that question would be along the lines of "Do you leave your ID at home when jogging in the immediate vicinity of State Line Road in Kansas City?"

I'm not sure how anyone who had come through airport immigration in the USA could possibly think the borders here are anything like they are in the EU.

I forgot she was visiting Canada, not the USA.

[Bruce]

Avenue 0 has become a pretty popular spot for family reunions during the pandemic shutdown, so I imagine the patrol right now is a bit heightened. If I recall, there are some other kinds of monitoring in the ditch, like pressure or infrared sensors.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/families-meet-along-0-avenue-to-connect-across-the-border-1.4904645

[vdeane]

I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I'm not sure if the phrases "reasonable" and "border agent" belong in the same sentence together.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20030216/news/302169975

I hardly think that story is the same as a 3-year-old kid wandering across the street.  The driver didn't stop at customs and had a gun in the vehicle.

Why should the driver have needed to stop at customs?  He was just getting gas and then going home.  That area is like Hyder but with logging roads.  Before 9/11 the border agents recognized the absurdity of the situation and didn't require it, but then the US became uber-paranoid and decided to start treating the Canadian border like the Mexican one.

He was doing nothing that the locals hadn't been doing for years/decades until customs decided to arbitrarily and with little/no warning decided to make a change for no good reason.

[lstone19]

Why should the driver have needed to stop at customs?  He was just getting gas and then going home.  That area is like Hyder but with logging roads.  Before 9/11 the border agents recognized the absurdity of the situation and didn't require it, but then the US became uber-paranoid and decided to start treating the Canadian border like the Mexican one.

He was doing nothing that the locals hadn't been doing for years/decades until customs decided to arbitrarily and with little/no warning decided to make a change for no good reason.

I agree, it was absurd IMHO because he was doing what they had done there for years plus as I read it and from the way it looks on Google Earth, you can't even get to any other part of the U.S. from that gas station without doing some serious off-roading. But some people are more concerned with lines on a map rather than honoring how those border communities developed in the days long before formal border controls.

I hardly think that story is the same as a 3-year-old kid wandering across the street.  The driver didn't stop at customs and had a gun in the vehicle.

Have you looked at the area with Google Earth/Maps? It's not like they drive past U.S. border station to get to the gas station. The border station is 1/2 mile away at the gated entrance to a logging road. After checking in with them, you need to drive back into Canada to the gas station, then back in to the U.S. on the gas station's driveway.

The rules of when you have to report or don't need to report to CBP can be hard to keep straight. As I understand it, enter a building that span the border and you can cross the border to your heart's content inside but so long as you exit on the same side as you entered, there is no need to report. Likewise with the Peace Arch Park in Washington/B.C. (in the median of I-5/BC 99 between the border stations) - enter from either country, exit to the same country, and no need to report (I've been there).

Other oddities - take the White Pass & Yukon RR Summer Excursion out of Skagway, AK. The train enter Canada at the summit of White Pass, then after the locomotives run around the train to the other for the return, re-enters the United States. No border inspection by either country (passengers never get off the train in Canada but the train is on Canadian land).

As for boats, it seems so long as you don't dock in the other country, you can do whatever you want in the other country's waters. The BC ferries between Tsawwassen (Vancouver) and Swartz Bay (Victoria) are in U.S. waters almost as soon as they leave Tsawwassen but no U.S. border formalities. The Maid of the Mist at Niagara Falls goes across the border in the river but no formalities. And I was on a sightseeing boat out of Sault Ste. Marie, ON that went through the U.S. locks there (meaning we tied up to the lock but did not leave the boat) without any border formalities.

For planes, so long as you don't land, no formalities. U.S. domestic flights fly through Canadian airspace and Canadian domestic flights through U.S. airspace every day. And that's not just for commercial flights - back when I flew, I've flown through Canadian airspace while enroute between two U.S. points (the same Buffalo to north of Detroit that many commercial flights use) and even Mexican airspace (El Paso Departure took me into Mexican airspace while departing El Paso even though I was talking to U.S. air traffic controllers the whole time).

The crazy thing is when CBP and CBSA want to, they can do it. I have read that even in recent years, there will be in-bond buses run from Canada Place (Vancouver cruise terminal) to Seatac Airport (Seattle) so those passengers don't need to officially enter Canada and then re-enter the U.S. an hour later. So why they can't come up with reasonable policies for these border communities is a mystery.

I much preferred border crossings in Europe. When we took a train from Stockholm to Oslo a couple of years ago, our entry into Norway consisted of nothing more than the conductor announcing "Welcome to Norway".

[kphoger]

I much preferred border crossings in Europe. When we took a train from Stockholm to Oslo a couple of years ago, our entry into Norway consisted of nothing more than the conductor announcing "Welcome to Norway".

Europe hasn't always been like that.  When we took a train from Poland through the Czech Republic toward Austria, our entry into the Czech Republic consisted of pulling past the train station, armed soldiers with dogs coming on board, and our passports being taken off the train into the guard station while we waited for them to be returned.  Things have changed in the last 21 years.

(This is how I ended up with a Czech passport stamp without ever having set foot on Czech soil.)

[lstone19]

I much preferred border crossings in Europe. When we took a train from Stockholm to Oslo a couple of years ago, our entry into Norway consisted of nothing more than the conductor announcing "Welcome to Norway".

Europe hasn't always been like that.  When we took a train from Poland through the Czech Republic toward Austria, our entry into the Czech Republic consisted of pulling past the train station, armed soldiers with dogs coming on board, and our passports being taken off the train into the guard station while we waited for them to be returned.  Things have changed in the last 21 years.

True but it is how things are today. Travel between two countries that are part of the Schengen agreement and you are exempt from Immigration (people) inspection. Travel between two countries that are part of the European Union and you are exempt from Customs (property) inspection. They're an overlapping but not identical set of countries.

In my example, Norway was Schengen but not EU so technically, a Customs inspection was required arriving in Noway. But as in most of Europe, Customs is something you're expected to take care of it applies. Most airports have separate green (Nothing to Declare) lines where you just walk on by Customs and red (Something to Declare) which frequently takes you into a Customs office. Not like in the U.S. and Canada where everyone is checked until the border agent is satisfied you really have nothing to declare.