Coronavirus pandemic

[kalvado]

The NEJM article reinforces what has been said.  A mask does not protect the wearer, absent the other PPE that hospital workers wear.  But it does provide at least some protection to others, particularly if the person with the mask is asymptomatic or has unrecognized symptoms.  That protection is most important the closer the people are to each other, and the longer they spend time together.

Paper doesn't present any factual evidence, though. Overall, it is just a policy proposal and explanation, not a research paper

[vdeane]

I thought the map on page 9 of this study was an interesting look at which states have the virus under control and which don't.  I had been considering a cross-country trip for late summer/fall if things started to open up and my job isn't impacted by NY's economic problems, but that large swath of red in the rust belt made me change my mind.

[Max Rockatansky]

Of note; my own workplace follows the 10 minute rule for exposure on contact tracing in regards to a confirmed COVID-19 case.  Apparently I need to go back, review footage, and determine all the people who would be within contact of a person who tested positive in the hypothetical scenario of a employee coming back positive.   That 10 minutes doesn't factor in if anyone is wearing masks or not.

Need to formalize the rules. If mask was indeed used, then questions come - was it properly worn? What kind of mask? Did it have exhaust valve?
Since we're not talking criminal conviction, there is no need to go "beyond reasonable doubt", so strong enough indication may be it.

Hell, I haven't even seen a clear answer on what I'm supposed to do with those people that were  in that 10 minute contact window.  I'm assuming that they are supposed to 14 days self quarantine but I haven't gotten an answer when I asked the question.  We have clear rules for pretty much everything else such as when someone calls out for not feeling good or scans with a high temperature.  I'm just hoping it's a bridge that doesn't need to be crossed ultimately. 

[kphoger]

Churches have never been closed.  Just their buildings.

And any church who willingly brings people together in an unsafe manner during a pandemic probably needs to read the Bible a little more closely.

Yep. Washington has had drive-thru or online church services since March. There's plenty of evidence that regular church routines (singing, close socializing, eating together) spread the virus, to deadly effect.

Ah.  So people are still perfectly free to practice their religion–just so long as their religion doesn't include any practices you disagree with, such as corporate prayer and singing, socializing, shared meals...  Essentially, this means they're free to engage in some of their religious practices, but not free to engage in others.  Just because religious communities are still engaging in religious practices, that doesn't mean their religious practice as a whole is still continuing.  And just because one religion is able to continue its practices without gathering corporately, that doesn't mean all religions are also able.

As an example, Holy Communion cannot be separated from an Orthodox Christian's religion.  Take away the ability to gather corporately for the Eucharist, and you take away the central act of their religion.

Holy Eucharist

The Holy Eucharist is called the "sacrament of sacraments"  in the Orthodox tradition. It is also called the "sacrament of the Church."  The eucharist is the center of the Church's life. Everything in the Church leads to the eucharist, and all things flow from it. It is the completion of all of the Church's sacraments–the source and the goal of all of the Church's doctrines and institutions.

[...]

As a word, the term eucharist means thanksgiving. This name is given to the sacred meal-not only to the elements of bread and wine, but to the whole act of gathering, praying, reading the Holy Scriptures and proclaiming God's Word, remembering Christ and eating and drinking his Body and Blood in communion with him and with God the Father, by the Holy Spirit. The word eucharist is used because the all-embracing meaning of the Lord's Banquet is that of thanksgiving to God in Christ and the Holy Spirit for all that he has done in making, saving and glorifying the world.

The sacrament of the eucharist is also called holy communion since it is the mystical communion of men with God, with each other, and with all men and all things in him through Christ and the Spirit. The eucharistic liturgy is celebrated in the Church every Sunday, the Day of the Lord, as well as on feast days.

[...]

Thus, by eating and drinking the bread and wine which are mystically consecrated by the Holy Spirit, we have genuine communion with God through Christ who is himself "the bread of life"  (Jn 6.34, 41).

[...]

[Max Rockatansky]

Apparently Ford Interceptor patrol vehicles can be equipped with a software program that raises the temperature of the cabin to 133F for 15 minutes to kill COVID-19.  Amusingly I think my car is probably already at that temperature in the cabin right now since it's 107F outside today:

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/ford-police-interceptor-utility-destroy-153100565.html

I guess that bodes well for race car drivers.  The cabins of some of those stock cars are definitely near that level of heat on warm days. 

[tradephoric]

I thought the map on page 9 of this study was an interesting look at which states have the virus under control and which don't.  I had been considering a cross-country trip for late summer/fall if things started to open up and my job isn't impacted by NY's economic problems, but that large swath of red in the rust belt made me change my mind.

Very interesting paper.  They estimate that about 4% of the population has had the virus and that there is "no evidence that any state is approaching herd immunity or that its epidemic is close to over".  Many experts say that herd immunity will be reached at 60%.  Does that mean things are going to get over 10X worse from here?  Instead of 100k deaths there will be over one million deaths?  Nationally we've reached a point where there are fewer than 1,000 COVID deaths per day.  At that rate it will take over 900 days (2 1/2 years) to reach 1 million deaths in this country.  I guess my point is at this rate, we will never reach herd immunity because the rate of infection is so slow.  And are we really expecting to see 60% herd immunity in a rural county in Texas vs Cook County in Illinois?

[SEWIGuy]

Churches have never been closed.  Just their buildings.

And any church who willingly brings people together in an unsafe manner during a pandemic probably needs to read the Bible a little more closely.

Yep. Washington has had drive-thru or online church services since March. There's plenty of evidence that regular church routines (singing, close socializing, eating together) spread the virus, to deadly effect.

Ah.  So people are still perfectly free to practice their religion–just so long as their religion doesn't include any practices you disagree with, such as corporate prayer and singing, socializing, shared meals...  Essentially, this means they're free to engage in some of their religious practices, but not free to engage in others.  Just because religious communities are still engaging in religious practices, that doesn't mean their religious practice as a whole is still continuing.  And just because one religion is able to continue its practices without gathering corporately, that doesn't mean all religions are also able.

As an example, Holy Communion cannot be separated from an Orthodox Christian's religion.  Take away the ability to gather corporately for the Eucharist, and you take away the central act of their religion.

Holy Eucharist

The Holy Eucharist is called the "sacrament of sacraments"  in the Orthodox tradition. It is also called the "sacrament of the Church."  The eucharist is the center of the Church's life. Everything in the Church leads to the eucharist, and all things flow from it. It is the completion of all of the Church's sacraments–the source and the goal of all of the Church's doctrines and institutions.

[...]

As a word, the term eucharist means thanksgiving. This name is given to the sacred meal-not only to the elements of bread and wine, but to the whole act of gathering, praying, reading the Holy Scriptures and proclaiming God's Word, remembering Christ and eating and drinking his Body and Blood in communion with him and with God the Father, by the Holy Spirit. The word eucharist is used because the all-embracing meaning of the Lord's Banquet is that of thanksgiving to God in Christ and the Holy Spirit for all that he has done in making, saving and glorifying the world.

The sacrament of the eucharist is also called holy communion since it is the mystical communion of men with God, with each other, and with all men and all things in him through Christ and the Spirit. The eucharistic liturgy is celebrated in the Church every Sunday, the Day of the Lord, as well as on feast days.

[...]

Thus, by eating and drinking the bread and wine which are mystically consecrated by the Holy Spirit, we have genuine communion with God through Christ who is himself "the bread of life"  (Jn 6.34, 41).

[...]

Interesting since most (all?) Orthodox churches in the United States directed their parishes to close regardless of the state and local orders in place.  The Orthodox Church in America has put together a phased plan for reopening and provided a bunch of resources to parishes about how to conduct their services remotely.

Not one bit of communication urging state or local authorities to "open up" and allow them to worship freely.

https://www.oca.org/resources-coronavirus

So I guess they largely have the same view.  Church continues even if buildings are closed.

[NWI_Irish96]

I thought the map on page 9 of this study was an interesting look at which states have the virus under control and which don't.  I had been considering a cross-country trip for late summer/fall if things started to open up and my job isn't impacted by NY's economic problems, but that large swath of red in the rust belt made me change my mind.

Very interesting paper.  They estimate that about 4% of the population has had the virus and that there is "no evidence that any state is approaching herd immunity or that its epidemic is close to over".  Many experts say that herd immunity will be reached at 60%.  Does that mean things are going to get over 10X worse from here?  Instead of 100k deaths there will be over one million deaths?  Nationally we've reached a point where there are fewer than 1,000 COVID deaths per day.  At that rate it will take over 900 days (2 1/2 years) to reach 1 million deaths in this country.  I guess my point is at this rate, we will never reach herd immunity because the rate of infection is so slow.  And are we really expecting to see 60% herd immunity in a rural county in Texas vs Cook County in Illinois?

We don't want to reach herd immunity. If we wanted to reach herd immunity we'd have all gone out and coughed all over each other the first day we found out about this and we'd have reached herd immunity long ago.

The purpose of the stay at home orders and the physical distancing and the wearing masks is to prevent us from reaching herd immunity before we have a vaccine.

[kalvado]

I thought the map on page 9 of this study was an interesting look at which states have the virus under control and which don't.  I had been considering a cross-country trip for late summer/fall if things started to open up and my job isn't impacted by NY's economic problems, but that large swath of red in the rust belt made me change my mind.

Very interesting paper.  They estimate that about 4% of the population has had the virus and that there is "no evidence that any state is approaching herd immunity or that its epidemic is close to over".  Many experts say that herd immunity will be reached at 60%.  Does that mean things are going to get over 10X worse from here?  Instead of 100k deaths there will be over one million deaths?  Nationally we've reached a point where there are fewer than 1,000 COVID deaths per day.  At that rate it will take over 900 days (2 1/2 years) to reach 1 million deaths in this country.  I guess my point is at this rate, we will never reach herd immunity because the rate of infection is so slow.  And are we really expecting to see 60% herd immunity in a rural county in Texas vs Cook County in Illinois?

People expect second wave in winter - weather, more relaxed attitude may become factors.
And its a race what comes first - herd immunity or vaccine. I bet on herd immunity. Rural areas would serve as reservoir for flare-ups...

[jemacedo9]

I thought the map on page 9 of this study was an interesting look at which states have the virus under control and which don't.  I had been considering a cross-country trip for late summer/fall if things started to open up and my job isn't impacted by NY's economic problems, but that large swath of red in the rust belt made me change my mind.

Very interesting paper.  They estimate that about 4% of the population has had the virus and that there is "no evidence that any state is approaching herd immunity or that its epidemic is close to over".  Many experts say that herd immunity will be reached at 60%.  Does that mean things are going to get over 10X worse from here?  Instead of 100k deaths there will be over one million deaths?  Nationally we've reached a point where there are fewer than 1,000 COVID deaths per day.  At that rate it will take over 900 days (2 1/2 years) to reach 1 million deaths in this country.  I guess my point is at this rate, we will never reach herd immunity because the rate of infection is so slow.  And are we really expecting to see 60% herd immunity in a rural county in Texas vs Cook County in Illinois?

The hope is that the death and hospitalization is kept reasonably low until a vaccine is found...and then your immunity is found via vaccine and not "the herd".  Key word - and the word that all of these debates center around - is reasonably.  One persons "reasonable" is different from another's.

With 320,000,000 people, 60% infection = 192,000,000 infected.  0.5% mortality rate (we don't know what the true number is) = 960,000 deaths.  That is close to your 900 day number.  The hope is that we can find and distribute a vaccine sooner than 900 days.

And by the way, 60% is not a definitive number.  I've seen reports that the number could be anywhere from 60%-90%.  It's virus-specific.

And that's ignoring people who don't die but end up with permanently-degraded health.

[kphoger]

Interesting since most (all?) Orthodox churches in the United States directed their parishes to close regardless of the state and local orders in place.  The Orthodox Church in America has put together a phased plan for reopening and provided a bunch of resources to parishes about how to conduct their services remotely.

Not one bit of communication urging state or local authorities to "open up" and allow them to worship freely.

https://www.oca.org/resources-coronavirus

So I guess they largely have the same view.  Some aspects of Church continues even if buildings are closed.

Edited for accuracy.

In the early days of the virus, back in March, the Orthodox church in Russia had a substantially different outlook.  For example, after church leaders in Saint Petersburg banned members from attending service, leadership in Moscow overruled and demanded that church doors remain open.  I believe it wasn't until April 27 that Cyril, Patriarch of Moscow, finally capitulated and insisted that parishes obey virus-related government orders.

In the very resource link you posted are found the words "And yet, many of us were deprived of the opportunity ... even to enter the temple in order to sing: Bless God in the congregations, the Lord, O you who are of Israel's fountain. (Psalm 68:26) ... Indeed, with you, the Holy Synod of Bishops longs for the full opening of our churches, missions, monasteries, and seminaries so that we all might return to the fullness of our church life ...  we make our way through the spiritual, emotional, and psychological effects of isolation and quarantine."

Religious life isn't simply "continuing".  It's limping.  The fact that there are resources out there to help congregations doesn't negate that.

[SEWIGuy]

Interesting since most (all?) Orthodox churches in the United States directed their parishes to close regardless of the state and local orders in place.  The Orthodox Church in America has put together a phased plan for reopening and provided a bunch of resources to parishes about how to conduct their services remotely.

Not one bit of communication urging state or local authorities to "open up" and allow them to worship freely.

https://www.oca.org/resources-coronavirus

So I guess they largely have the same view.  Church continues even if buildings are closed.

Edited for accuracy.

In the early days of the virus, back in March, the Orthodox church in Russia had a substantially different outlook.  For example, after church leaders in Saint Petersburg banned members from attending service, leadership in Moscow overruled and demanded that church doors remain open.  I believe it wasn't until April 27 that Cyril, Patriarch of Moscow, finally capitulated and insisted that parishes obey virus-related government orders.

In the very resource link you posted are found the words "And yet, many of us were deprived of the opportunity ... even to enter the temple in order to sing: Bless God in the congregations, the Lord, O you who are of Israel's fountain. (Psalm 68:26) ... Indeed, with you, the Holy Synod of Bishops longs for the full opening of our churches, missions, monasteries, and seminaries so that we all might return to the fullness of our church life ...  we make our way through the spiritual, emotional, and psychological effects of isolation and quarantine."

Religious life isn't simply "continuing".  It's limping.  The fact that there are resources out there to help congregations doesn't negate that.

Editing my quote back because Church indeed continues

Yes of course they are being deprived of the ability to worship - because of the virus.  They aren't blaming some sort of governmental edict.  The fact is that the government can take reasonable steps to limit worship, and many denominations are supportive of that.  Including the Orthodox church even though Sunday worship with the eucharist is important to them.

Because they actually care about their members.

[Roadgeekteen]

Interesting since most (all?) Orthodox churches in the United States directed their parishes to close regardless of the state and local orders in place.  The Orthodox Church in America has put together a phased plan for reopening and provided a bunch of resources to parishes about how to conduct their services remotely.

Not one bit of communication urging state or local authorities to "open up" and allow them to worship freely.

https://www.oca.org/resources-coronavirus

So I guess they largely have the same view.  Church continues even if buildings are closed.

Edited for accuracy.

In the early days of the virus, back in March, the Orthodox church in Russia had a substantially different outlook.  For example, after church leaders in Saint Petersburg banned members from attending service, leadership in Moscow overruled and demanded that church doors remain open.  I believe it wasn't until April 27 that Cyril, Patriarch of Moscow, finally capitulated and insisted that parishes obey virus-related government orders.

In the very resource link you posted are found the words "And yet, many of us were deprived of the opportunity ... even to enter the temple in order to sing: Bless God in the congregations, the Lord, O you who are of Israel's fountain. (Psalm 68:26) ... Indeed, with you, the Holy Synod of Bishops longs for the full opening of our churches, missions, monasteries, and seminaries so that we all might return to the fullness of our church life ...  we make our way through the spiritual, emotional, and psychological effects of isolation and quarantine."

Religious life isn't simply "continuing".  It's limping.  The fact that there are resources out there to help congregations doesn't negate that.

Editing my quote back because Church indeed continues

Yes of course they are being deprived of the ability to worship - because of the virus.  They aren't blaming some sort of governmental edict.  The fact is that the government can take reasonable steps to limit worship, and many denominations are supportive of that.  Including the Orthodox church even though Sunday worship with the eucharist is important to them.

Because they actually care about their members.

My church's pastor said that he's doesn't think that we will go back to in person service this year. Many churches just want people to donate money to them, which can't really happen as much at home online.

[Stephane Dumas]

Singer Ray Stevens posted a song about quarentine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtjceaknzHQ

[kphoger]

Editing my quote back because Church indeed continues

Yes of course they are being deprived of the ability to worship - because of the virus.  They aren't blaming some sort of governmental edict.  The fact is that the government can take reasonable steps to limit worship, and many denominations are supportive of that.  Including the Orthodox church even though Sunday worship with the eucharist is important to them.

Because they actually care about their members.

My church's pastor said that he's doesn't think that we will go back to in person service this year. Many churches just want people to donate money to them, which can't really happen as much at home online.

Our in-home small group is starting up again this coming Sunday, and our church plans to resume corporate worship in four weeks.  The first full band rehearsal was yesterday.

Apparently that's because we don't care about our members.   

Not all churches are set up for online anything.  In order to make sermons available for watching at home, a congregation has to have...
- the equipment necessary for recording
- someone who is willing and able and has the time to do the recording each week, typically for free
- video editing software
- someone who is willing and able and has the time to post-edit the video each week, typically for free
- someone who knows how to host the final product online, preferably across multiple platforms
- members who have internet access and know how to use it

My home congregation is fortunate enough that, of the four people knowledgeable enough to make this happen, two are on staff, one isn't working every week during the virus, and one has flexible hours and a very light work load during the virus.  It was a learning curve, but that curve went fairly quickly for us.  However, I know specifically of members who don't even have a computer, let alone internet access.  For them, church most certainly is not "indeed continuing":  it completely stopped for them nine weeks ago.  A few weeks ago, while cleaning another member's picture window, my wife and I realized she had no idea how to find the sermons online.  If we hadn't been there and asked about it, she would be disconnected as well.

A lot of congregations don't have the equipment, know-how, and/or people to even make this stuff available in the first place.  My parents' congregation, for example, had already been posting audio-only files of sermons online, but that's as much as they have the ability to do.  Others don't even do that.

But I still have a fundamental problem with saying that religion continues without gathering.  Religion is by nature a corporate thing.  If it weren't, then we wouldn't even have churches, mosques, synagogues, or temples.  Religion is about more than just personal beliefs, reading, and listening.  It's what people do, and it's what they do together.  It's rituals, it's music, it's the things that separate it from mere philosophy.  Just as tennis doesn't continue if you take away the actual game–despite people still being able to train on their own, watch video, work out, etc–neither does religion continue if you take away the worship service.

[SEWIGuy]

Editing my quote back because Church indeed continues

Yes of course they are being deprived of the ability to worship - because of the virus.  They aren't blaming some sort of governmental edict.  The fact is that the government can take reasonable steps to limit worship, and many denominations are supportive of that.  Including the Orthodox church even though Sunday worship with the eucharist is important to them.

Because they actually care about their members.

My church's pastor said that he's doesn't think that we will go back to in person service this year. Many churches just want people to donate money to them, which can't really happen as much at home online.

Our in-home small group is starting up again this coming Sunday, and our church plans to resume corporate worship in four weeks.  The first full band rehearsal was yesterday.

Apparently that's because we don't care about our members.   

Not all churches are set up for online anything.  In order to make sermons available for watching at home, a congregation has to have...
- the equipment necessary for recording
- someone who is willing and able and has the time to do the recording each week, typically for free
- video editing software
- someone who is willing and able and has the time to post-edit the video each week, typically for free
- someone who knows how to host the final product online, preferably across multiple platforms
- members who have internet access and know how to use it

My home congregation is fortunate enough that, of the four people knowledgeable enough to make this happen, two are on staff, one isn't working every week during the virus, and one has flexible hours and a very light work load during the virus.  It was a learning curve, but that curve went fairly quickly for us.  However, I know specifically of members who don't even have a computer, let alone internet access.  For them, church most certainly is not "indeed continuing":  it completely stopped for them nine weeks ago.  A few weeks ago, while cleaning another member's picture window, my wife and I realized she had no idea how to find the sermons online.  If we hadn't been there and asked about it, she would be disconnected as well.

A lot of congregations don't have the equipment, know-how, and/or people to even make this stuff available in the first place.  My parents' congregation, for example, had already been posting audio-only files of sermons online, but that's as much as they have the ability to do.  Others don't even do that.

But I still have a fundamental problem with saying that religion continues without gathering.  Religion is by nature a corporate thing.  If it weren't, then we wouldn't even have churches, mosques, synagogues, or temples.  Religion is about more than just personal beliefs, reading, and listening.  It's what people do, and it's what they do together.  It's rituals, it's music, it's the things that separate it from mere philosophy.  Just as tennis doesn't continue if you take away the actual game–despite people still being able to train on their own, watch video, work out, etc–neither does religion continue if you take away the worship service.

Very limiting view of what a church and religion are.  Pretty sad.

Anyway, I am glad the state and local governments shut your church down for safety reasons.  Someone has to care about your members.

[NWI_Irish96]

Regardless of whether or not religion is involved, large gatherings of people simply aren't safe, and with this virus being able to be spread so quickly by asymptomatic carriers, there is a larger public interest beyond individual parishoners willingness to accept a certain level of risk.

Some churches have turned to online services, drive in services, small gatherings, etc, to find a way to continue to practice their religion safely. Others have decided to use their religion as a political weapon because politics are more important to them than actual faith.

[02 Park Ave]

Bad news for the pharmaceutical industry.  A recent survey shows that fifty percent of the population does not intend to get any of their expedited COVID-19 vaccines.

Well at least they made large profits foisting opioids on us.

[SEWIGuy]

Regardless of whether or not religion is involved, large gatherings of people simply aren't safe, and with this virus being able to be spread so quickly by asymptomatic carriers, there is a larger public interest beyond individual parishoners willingness to accept a certain level of risk.

Some churches have turned to online services, drive in services, small gatherings, etc, to find a way to continue to practice their religion safely. Others have decided to use their religion as a political weapon because politics are more important to them than actual faith.

https://news.wsiu.org/post/jackson-county-experiences-surge-covid-19-cases?fbclid=IwAR1Ia3z5WIQlFnQwtqapwLRNL5lanV7hL2aWyxVIxtksb7iEnWZySfup904#stream/0

As southern Illinois prepares for Phase 3 of the state's reopening plan, COVID-19 cases in Jackson County are on the rise.

Bart Hagston, administrator of the Jackson county health department, said most of the cases are connected to a local church that has been holding in-person services in defiance of public health orders.

"We have seen an uptick in the number of cases over the last several days. Most of those cases are tied to an outbreak associated with a church in Jackson County,"  he said.

[kphoger]

Very limiting view of what a church and religion are.  Pretty sad.

Anyway, I am glad the state and local governments shut your church down for safety reasons.  Someone has to care about your members.

Perhaps you've misunderstood my point.  I don't mean by what I've said to limit religion to only those aspects that are external and practiced corporately.  On the contrary, I wholeheartedly agree that religion involves personal faith, devotion, understanding, etc.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say that something devoid of those personal aspects maybe  shouldn't be considered "religion".

But I refuse to accept the opposite just as much:  limiting religion to only those aspects that are internal and practiced personally.  I'm not saying such a spiritual life isn't valid–but that it is something that shouldn't be called "religion".

[kalvado]

Bad news for the pharmaceutical industry.  A recent survey shows that fifty percent of the population does not intend to get any of their expedited COVID-19 vaccines.

Well at least they made large profits foisting opioids on us.

Don't worry, those refusing vaccine will more than make up for lost profits by paying for antivirals. Even at 2-3% hospitalization rate, durgs used in treatment will cost more than what can be made from vaccine.

[1995hoo]

Our neighborhood just sent around an e-mail saying the pools will not open this year, based on advice from counsel and the liability insurance carrier. While I think ultimately that's the right decision under the circumstances, I'm mildly surprised they reached the decision this soon. The previous announcement had said the pools' opening (which would normally have been this past Saturday, weather permitting) was delayed until at least June 10. I figured they'd delay it again until the end of June and then re-assess.

Gonna be some very disappointed kids in our neighborhood when their parents tell them the news!

[kphoger]

Sweden experient turning out not so good.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden-strategy-idUSKBN22W2YC

So compared to their Nordic neighbors, they kept their economy more open, yet have a higher death rate and their economy is no better off. 

Sweden's curve has definitely not been flattened to the same extent as that of its Nordic neighbors.  However, it strikes me as remarkably similar to nearby Poland.

Curious to see if anyone here knows what distinguishes Poland's response from that of, say, Norway.

[tradephoric]

Countries like Luxembourg, Australia, South Korea, Israel, Austria, and Switzerland have had big outbreaks of the virus but have since contained it.  Countries like Egypt, Pakistan, Mexico, India, Brazil, and Russia are still experiencing near exponential growth of the virus.


https://aatishb.com/covidtrends/?location=Brazil&location=Egypt&location=India&location=Mexico&location=Pakistan&location=Russia&doublingtime=3


https://aatishb.com/covidtrends/?location=Australia&location=Austria&location=Israel&location=Luxembourg&location=South+Korea&location=Switzerland&doublingtime=3

Twenty days later and Brazil, Egypt, India, Mexico, and Pakistan are close to that exponential growth curve.  Just recently it looks like Russia may have made a turn for the better.


https://aatishb.com/covidtrends/?doublingtime=3&location=Brazil&location=Egypt&location=Mexico&location=Pakistan&location=Russia

[webny99]

Very limiting view of what a church and religion are.  Pretty sad.
Anyway, I am glad the state and local governments shut your church down for safety reasons.  Someone has to care about your members.

Perhaps you've misunderstood my point.

I think it was more trolling than anything. "Very limiting view" in response to one of the longer and more detailed posts in this thread and maybe even the entire forum? Tell me another one.

Not all churches are set up for online anything.  In order to make sermons available for watching at home, a congregation has to have...

Not necessarily. They could do a live sermon through Zoom or a similar platform.