Coronavirus pandemic

[jeffandnicole]

Doesn't matter if a sign is posted or not.  There isn't a sign saying "Don't pee on the tomatoes".  Are you going to fight an employee that catches you doing this?  Or are you going to head over to the fishing lures and poo?

However, you can legally be in my front yard, so long as I don't have NO TRESPASSING signs posted.  If I come out of the house and tell you to get off my property, then that's another matter.

So, if there was no sign saying to wear shoes into a business, but someone working at the business told you to wear shoes, then it would be legally enforceable?

And you would tell the court that there was no sign prohibiting you to pee on the tomatoes?

I'm no lawyer, but I would advise against representing yourself in court.

[wxfree]

Here's what Texas says about trespassing, as an example:

Sec. 30.05.  CRIMINAL TRESPASS.  (a)  A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:
(1)  had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2)  received notice to depart but failed to do so.
(b)  For purposes of this section:
(1)  "Entry" means the intrusion of the entire body.
(2)  "Notice" means:
(A)  oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
(B)  fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;
(C)  a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden; 
(D)  the placement of identifying purple paint marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks are:
(i)  vertical lines of not less than eight inches in length and not less than one inch in width;
(ii)  placed so that the bottom of the mark is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet from the ground;  and
(iii)  placed at locations that are readily visible to any person approaching the property and no more than:
(a)  100 feet apart on forest land;  or
(b)  1,000 feet apart on land other than forest land;  or
(E)  the visible presence on the property of a crop grown for human consumption that is under cultivation, in the process of being harvested, or marketable if harvested at the time of entry.

Signs or paint aren't necessary if there's a fence (or crops).  It would be legal for someone to be in your yard outside of a fence if there's no sign, until you or another authorized person says it's not.

This applies to residential land, but not to habitations.  You don't need a No Trespassing sign for people to know they're not allowed to enter your house without an invitation.  Entry without consent into a habitation or a building not open to the public is burglary, with no notice required.  This applies not to the whole body, but to any part of the body or any object connected with the body.

[kphoger]

So, if there was no sign saying to wear shoes into a business, but someone working at the business told you to wear shoes, then it would be legally enforceable?

Yes, it would.  And, from what others are saying, any employee can be the one to tell you that.

And you would tell the court that there was no sign prohibiting you to pee on the tomatoes?

I don't pee on tomatoes.

But, anyway, no I wouldn't tell them that, because urinating in public is a separate crime.

I'm no lawyer, but I would advise against representing yourself in court.

That's fine, because I'm not in court.



How did this all start, again?  Oh, that's right:  it was asked, Does a person have to be given the opportunity to leave voluntarily before an arrest can be made?  It seems the answer to that question might be not in all situations.  Therefore, if there is a sign at a store entrance requiring a face mask, then it is possible that sign would legally count as notice to anyone without a mask to leave the premises, thus satisfying any such requirement.  Now, I'm not sure I've seen sufficient evidence presented thus far to say that with certainty, but that is what the comments so far are leading me to believe.

[kphoger]

Signs or paint aren't necessary if there's a fence (or crops). 

If there's "fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock".  I don't think that necessarily describes every fence.

[bandit957]

One thing I'm sick of is the phrase "in public" with regard to mask orders. For instance, news reports always say the mask order in Kentucky applies "in public." Nope. It applies at businesses, doctor's offices, etc. That's not the same as "in public."

What then do you consider "public"?  I'm sure that the places you've listed qualify as "public accommodations" in the eyes of civil rights laws disallowing discrimination.

Those are privately owned businesses, not like parks or something.

[Scott5114]

Houston has reached 100% ICU capacity. Some real shit's about to go down.

[wxfree]

Houston has reached 100% ICU capacity. Some real shit's about to go down.

The governor has ordered elective procedures suspended in the counties containing Houston, Dallas, Austin, and San Antonio.  He hasn't rolled back any openings, but has paused any new ones from taking effect.  He is not allowing local governments to order people to wear masks, but he is allowing local governments to order businesses to require people to wear masks.  (He's a lawyer and a politician, so we end up with things like that.)

[Scott5114]

I get that he wants to limit the orders to counties with a large urban population, but leaving out Tarrant, Nueces, and El Paso counties (not to mention suburban counties like Denton) is a little suspect.

[ftballfan]

I get that he wants to limit the orders to counties with a large urban population, but leaving out Tarrant, Nueces, and El Paso counties (not to mention suburban counties like Denton) is a little suspect.

Maybe those counties aren't as affected yet and still have hospital capacity

[corco]

I get that he wants to limit the orders to counties with a large urban population, but leaving out Tarrant, Nueces, and El Paso counties (not to mention suburban counties like Denton) is a little suspect.

Maybe those counties aren't as affected yet and still have hospital capacity

Why be reactive when you know it's coming? Once hospitals are at capacity it's too late, because any additional case growth will put them over capacity.

[wxfree]

Hospitalization numbers today reflect what was happening one to three weeks ago.  Even if we take the strictest measures right now, the cases will continue to rise.  A certain amount of increase is already baked into the cake.  More of it gets baked in every day.  And no matter how awful that cake tastes, we're going to have to eat it.

[Bruce]

I bought a bottle of Zeiss "Fog Defender" from CVS today and it's pretty effective at preventing the fogging that happens when wearing masks and glasses. Would definitely recommend, as it doesn't seem to be hoarded-out yet.

[LM117]

The governor of NC has announced that the state will remain in Phase 2 for three more weeks. Masks will also be mandatory in public places. A copy of the executive order can be found near the bottom of the press release.

https://governor.nc.gov/news/north-carolina-pauses-safer-home-phase-2-adds-statewide-requirement-%EF%BB%BF-face-coverings

The sheriffs of Sampson and Halifax counties say they won't enforce the mask requirement...

https://www.cbs17.com/news/local-news/some-central-nc-sheriffs-say-they-wont-enforce-coopers-statewide-mask-requirement/

If you read the Governor's order, you'll see that law enforcement doesn't have much of a role in enforcing the mask requirement anyway. Maybe if a shopowner orders an unmasked person to leave, and that person doesn't, the cops can issue a citation for trespassing.

Yep, they can.

https://www.wral.com/coronavirus/statewide-mask-requirement-begins-friday-businesses-customers-can-be-cited-if-they-don-t-comply/19160441/

Cooper said that businesses and customers could be cited if they do not obey the new order. Law enforcement can use trespassing laws to help businesses enforce these rules when customers refuse to obey them.

Methinks there's a bit of showboating here, by those NC sheriffs.

Agreed. I'm pretty familiar with Sampson County and ENC in general and this doesn't surprise me any. More in that region will probably follow suit.

As predicted...

https://www.wnct.com/local-news/enc-sheriffs-wont-enforce-face-mask-mandate/

And on a somewhat related note regarding Cooper's executive orders, Lt. Gov. Dan Forest has filed a lawsuit against Cooper. He's running against Cooper in November, so I'm sure this is all a coincidence.

https://www.wnct.com/news/north-carolina/lt-gov-forest-says-hes-suing-gov-cooper-for-violating-emergency-management-act/

[hotdogPi]

More evidence for "every area gets one wave":

Alabama continues to go up mildly except for the majority black area, which already had their first wave before and is going down.
The part of Florida increasing the fastest is the northern half outside the panhandle, although it's extremely fast vs. moderately fast. The part of Florida that had the most before is the southern half.
The Native American parts of AZ and NM (the counties near Four Corners) are the only parts of either of the two states going down; they had their wave earlier.

[kphoger]

In those 22 counties outlined, there have only been a combined 69 cases TOTAL.  One-third of those counties haven't recorded a single case of COVID.  Why would you demand that those residents' actions be the same as, say, Sullivan County (NY), which has two-thirds the population but 21 times the COVID cases?  That makes no sense to me.

The situation in northwestern Kansas is nowhere near a crisis--we are still having a mask debate here in Sedgwick County as hospitalizations have doubled in the past week and keep on climbing.

I do see a slight trend increase in Sedgwick County recently, but nothing super-alarming yet.

[cl94]

So much for Texas not rolling anything back- bars were closed at noon CDT.

[kphoger]

So much for Texas not rolling anything back- bars were closed at noon CDT.

Hey, if you're still at the bar by the time noon rolls around, then you obviously have a drinking problem.

[Brandon]

So much for Texas not rolling anything back- bars were closed at noon CDT.

I usually go for local news rather than the local-to-New York NYT

https://www.chron.com/coronavirus/article/Houston-coronavirus-updates-What-you-need-to-15368473.php

https://www.mysanantonio.com/coronavirus/article/Texas-Gov-Greg-Abbott-closes-Texas-bars-once-15368484.php

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/public-health/2020/06/26/texas-gov-greg-abbott-closes-bars-dials-back-restaurants-to-half-capacity-shuts-river-rafting/

[J N Winkler]

For example, probably 13 years ago now, I was out around town (Herrin, IL) with my wife, and I didn't have shoes on.  We went into WalMart, and the greeter told me I couldn't be in the store without shoes.  There may or may not have been a sign on the front window saying shirt and shoes required, I can't remember.  Because my shoes were back at home, I ignored the greeter and we proceeded to shop.  If a WalMart greeter tells you to leave, does that constitute proper notice, or would someone else have to tell you?

I have been thinking about this, not in terms of who is legally in the right, but rather how this plays out as a matter of social psychology.  To third parties witnessing such an incident, it seems to me highly likely to come across as a case of an outsider refusing to cooperate with someone acting in a ministerial role, and that tends to align sympathies in a way not favorable to you.  This can later cause you problems if you are later forced to rely on eyewitness testimony to defend yourself, given people's natural tendency to remember events in a way that gives them moral clarity.

Here is an example:  on Election Day last November I was involved in an incident where a poll worker accosted me as I was trying to photograph my voted ballot and tried to snatch it out of my hand.  She was apparently under the impression that what I was trying to do was illegal.  In fact it is legal in Kansas, though our county elections official has made it clear she does not want voters to do it and has encouraged voters to take selfies next to an "I voted" sign if they wish to post on Facebook that they have voted.  (This does not work for people like me:  I photograph my ballot not to post on social media, but rather to record that I voted, and for whom.)

What happened, from my point of view, is that the poll worker laid fingers on my ballot and started pulling.  I clamped down on the ballot paper before I got angry and said "No!" in a very loud voice--this is a classic James-Lange response (physical reaction first, then emotional).  It is my belief, however, that since I was doing what no-one else in the polling place was doing (even if it was perfectly legal), and was being openly noncooperative with a poll worker, third parties would have remembered this as the poll worker taking the ballot and then my snatching it back.

In the end, because I was viewed as a "problem customer," I had an entourage of poll workers following me to the tabulator to ensure that I actually fed it my ballot.  If I had left the polling place with my ballot, that would have been a clear violation of state law.

[kphoger]

I usually go for local news rather than the local-to-New York NYT

It never takes me long to hit NYT's paywall anyway.

[kphoger]

In the end, because I was viewed as a "problem customer," I had an entourage of poll workers following me to the tabulator to ensure that I actually fed it my ballot.

Boy, it must be hard to look back on that with anything but sour emotions.

(FWIW, the 1st Circuit Court of Appeals–which is not over Kansas, of course–ruled that such a restriction is an unconstitutional violation of free speech, and the ruling still stands.)

[J N Winkler]

Boy, it must be hard to look back on that with anything but sour emotions.

Indeed, it is!

This incident is actually driving my decision to apply for absentee ballots for both the August primary and November general election.

(FWIW, the 1st Circuit Court of Appeals–which is not over Kansas, of course–ruled that such a restriction is an unconstitutional violation of free speech, and the ruling still stands.)

In Kansas, the clause that bans ballot disclosure applies to people with "election duty," which is not considered to include voters, so there isn't even a law against posting your own ballot online, though the elections officials from the Secretary of State on down do their best to discourage it.

[Roadgeekteen]

https://www.khou.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/houston-hospitals-ceo-provide-update-on-bed-capacity-amid-surge-in-covid-19-cases/285-a5178aa2-a710-49db-a107-1fd36cdf4cf3

Looks like flattening the curve didn't work very well in Texas...

[TheHighwayMan3561]

https://www.khou.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/houston-hospitals-ceo-provide-update-on-bed-capacity-amid-surge-in-covid-19-cases/285-a5178aa2-a710-49db-a107-1fd36cdf4cf3

Looks like flattening the curve didn't work very well in Texas...

Remember when the lt. gov said he'd take the risk of death over keeping the doors closed?

[Roadgeekteen]

https://www.khou.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/houston-hospitals-ceo-provide-update-on-bed-capacity-amid-surge-in-covid-19-cases/285-a5178aa2-a710-49db-a107-1fd36cdf4cf3

Looks like flattening the curve didn't work very well in Texas...

Remember when the lt. gov said he'd take the risk of death over keeping the doors closed?

Yikes