Daylight Savings Time (2022): Once And For All!!!

[webny99]

Pfft.  People who complain about dark mornings ruin the world.

*Ahem*

[tolbs17]

Unless you are in Alaska.

[Dirt Roads]

Cows expect to be milked the same time every day. The pigs liked to be fed on a schedule and would become problematic otherwise, much like my cat.

Which is why I can't believe how many articles have focused on the fact that farmers hated DST because it would "force the cows to be milked an hour later".  I think that they meant to say an hour earlier, but they weren't paying attention.  I've also seen this argument used for a reason that farmers were originally opposed to DST back in 1918.  All of this milk smells spoiled to me.

[kphoger]

Unless you are in Alaska.

What is that supposed to be a reply to?  It doesn't answer the thread title, there's no question posited in the OP, and it doesn't make any sense in the context of the messages before yours.

[vdeane]

Which is why I can't believe how many articles have focused on the fact that farmers hated DST because it would "force the cows to be milked an hour later".  I think that they meant to say an hour earlier, but they weren't paying attention.

Depends on whether you're looking at it from the perspective of the clock or the cow.

[tolbs17]

Unless you are in Alaska.

What is that supposed to be a reply to?  It doesn't answer the thread title, there's no question posited in the OP, and it doesn't make any sense in the context of the messages before yours.

Was directed towards Rothman's post.

[Rothman]

Pfft.  People who complain about dark mornings ruin the world.

*Ahem*

I was complaining about the effect of springin forward.  DST year round would eliminate the jolt. [emoji14]

[Duke87]

I think standard time all year would be better.

It would be if everyone could agree how to re-implement it properly. But I have a slight preference for DST year-round since moving south.

Standard time year round and DST year round are essentially the same thing, just using different time zones as a base.

The difference is whether you try to place solar noon around 12:00 give or take or around 13:00 give or take. Otherwise yes, AST is mathematically equivalent to EDT and so forth.


Ultimately we have this mess because we're an invasive species in mid-latitudes. Humans evolved in a tropical climate where you reliably get roughly 12 hours of daylight year-round. Our brains are thus arguably better suited for that, the fact that we tend to think the lack of daylight in winter sucks is indicative of the fact that perhaps we weren't meant to live at the latitudes we do and should move back closer to the equator.

But of course that's not happening, so we have to just manage short winter days as best we can... and, well, we can't actually optimize that either since people's schedules vary wildly. I love the idea of permanent DST since I'm not normally out of bed before 9:30, so this would give me an extra hour of sunlight in winter that I'm actually awake for. But I also acknowledge that for someone whose life routine requires they be out of bed at 7:00 this would absolutely suck.


As it exists, DST is an exemplary compromise: everyone hates it, but everyone hates it less than if the other side totally got their way. Indeed, this is the best argument I have for keeping things as they are: while no one likes biannual clock changes, I would far rather keep them than have year-round standard time, moving even more hours of sunlight from when I'm awake to when I'm asleep than is already the case. Proponents of year-round standard time, I imagine, would also often rather keep moving the clocks back and forth than stick them on DST permanently.

[kkt]

I think standard time all year would be better.

It would be if everyone could agree how to re-implement it properly. But I have a slight preference for DST year-round since moving south.

Standard time year round and DST year round are essentially the same thing, just using different time zones as a base.

The difference is whether you try to place solar noon around 12:00 give or take or around 13:00 give or take. Otherwise yes, AST is mathematically equivalent to EDT and so forth.


Ultimately we have this mess because we're an invasive species in mid-latitudes. Humans evolved in a tropical climate where you reliably get roughly 12 hours of daylight year-round. Our brains are thus arguably better suited for that, the fact that we tend to think the lack of daylight in winter sucks is indicative of the fact that perhaps we weren't meant to live at the latitudes we do and should move back closer to the equator.

But of course that's not happening, so we have to just manage short winter days as best we can... and, well, we can't actually optimize that either since people's schedules vary wildly. I love the idea of permanent DST since I'm not normally out of bed before 9:30, so this would give me an extra hour of sunlight in winter that I'm actually awake for. But I also acknowledge that for someone whose life routine requires they be out of bed at 7:00 this would absolutely suck.


As it exists, DST is an exemplary compromise: everyone hates it, but everyone hates it less than if the other side totally got their way. Indeed, this is the best argument I have for keeping things as they are: while no one likes biannual clock changes, I would far rather keep them than have year-round standard time, moving even more hours of sunlight from when I'm awake to when I'm asleep than is already the case. Proponents of year-round standard time, I imagine, would also often rather keep moving the clocks back and forth than stick them on DST permanently.

Just for the record, I like the biannual clock change.  It's saying goodbye to winter and hello to spring, and hello to light a bit longer in the evening.  Or goodbye to summer and hello to fall, and hello to restoring light while I'm getting up in the morning.

[1995hoo]

Regarding the comments about Alaska, that's a place where DST has little practical value because the summer days are so long anyway, but they observe DST for practical reasons relating to doing business with the rest of the country, especially the East Coast, in order to avoid increasing the time difference for most of the year,

[GaryV]

I've also had several friends who grew up on farms. I don't recall any liking DST and some outright hated it. They all thought it was nothing more than a city thing which allowed city people to stay out later in the summer, especially those doing outdoor activities.

My wife has several uncles and cousins who are farmers. They blamed DST on golfers. And didn't like it, especially the dairy farmers.

[1995hoo]

Have any of you ever worked on a farm? I never really did, but I did spend time avoiding work on my uncles' farms during the summer when I was a kid. One uncle had a pig farm. One had a dairy farm. They both operated on a schedule that didn't change an hour for DST. Cows expect to be milked the same time every day. The pigs liked to be fed on a schedule and would become problematic otherwise, much like my cat.

....

Our cat doesn't seem to mind the clocks going ahead because it means she gets fed what is, to her, an hour earlier in the morning, and she never objects to being fed. We adopted her last November right after Thanksgiving and thus haven't seen how she reacts to the clocks going back, but I have a feeling she will like that a whole lot less because it will mean being fed an hour later. (Actually, this year it'll be worse than that for her because I expect to be out of town that week and my wife sleeps later than I do in the mornings.)

[kphoger]

Pfft.  People who complain about dark mornings ruin the world.

Unless you are in Alaska.

Was directed towards Rothman's post.

So only people in Alaska who complain about dark mornings don't ruin the world?

Or people in Alaska who complain about dark mornings ruin the world for everyone except those in Alaska?

[kphoger]

The difference is whether you try to place solar noon around 12:00 give or take or around 13:00 give or take. Otherwise yes, AST is mathematically equivalent to EDT and so forth.

Ultimately we have this mess because we're an invasive species in mid-latitudes. Humans evolved in a tropical climate where you reliably get roughly 12 hours of daylight year-round. Our brains are thus arguably better suited for that, the fact that we tend to think the lack of daylight in winter sucks is indicative of the fact that perhaps we weren't meant to live at the latitudes we do and should move back closer to the equator.

But of course that's not happening, so we have to just manage short winter days as best we can... and, well, we can't actually optimize that either since people's schedules vary wildly. I love the idea of permanent DST since I'm not normally out of bed before 9:30, so this would give me an extra hour of sunlight in winter that I'm actually awake for. But I also acknowledge that for someone whose life routine requires they be out of bed at 7:00 this would absolutely suck.


As it exists, DST is an exemplary compromise: everyone hates it, but everyone hates it less than if the other side totally got their way. Indeed, this is the best argument I have for keeping things as they are: while no one likes biannual clock changes, I would far rather keep them than have year-round standard time, moving even more hours of sunlight from when I'm awake to when I'm asleep than is already the case. Proponents of year-round standard time, I imagine, would also often rather keep moving the clocks back and forth than stick them on DST permanently.

And yet clocks as we know them were developed after humanity had already migrated to cold climates–and were, in many steps along the way, developed in those very cold climates.

But yeah, I frequently find myself cursing my long-ago ancestors for having migrated out of the tropics.

My theme song of late has become Mirie it is while sumer i-last.  It is perhaps the oldest extant complete secular song in the English language, and it bemoans the coming of winter.

Mirie it is while sumer i-last
  with fugheles song.
oc nu necheth windes blast
  and weder strong.
Ey ey what this nicht is long.
  And ich with wel michel wrong
    soregh and murne and fast.

Translation into Modern English:

Merry it is while summer a-last,
  with fowl's song.
Oc now nigheth winter's blast,
  and weather strong.
Hey, hey, what! this night is long.
  And I with well-michel wrong
    Sorrow and mourn and fast.

Making it more natural to our modern ears:

Merry it is while summer lasts,
  with birdsong.
But now winter's blast draws near,
  and weather strong.
Hey, hey! but this night is long.
  And I, having been greatly wronged,
   Sorrow and mourn and fast.

[jeffandnicole]

Cows expect to be milked the same time every day. The pigs liked to be fed on a schedule and would become problematic otherwise, much like my cat.

Which is why I can't believe how many articles have focused on the fact that farmers hated DST because it would "force the cows to be milked an hour later".  I think that they meant to say an hour earlier, but they weren't paying attention.  I've also seen this argument used for a reason that farmers were originally opposed to DST back in 1918.  All of this milk smells spoiled to me.

I had this online "discussion" this week with someone...

Him: It was designed for children of farmers so they can work an extra hour harvesting the crops before going to school

Me: But DST results in a later sunrise, not an earlier sunrise.

Him:  well  you will think differently in the fall when the clock allows you to sleep one hour later or be in the field harvesting your bounty

Me (slightly confused): You mean when DST ended and we went back to standard time?

Him: no think of the Ukraine

At that point I realized there was no use to continue the conversation.

[kphoger]

I've never known a farmer's kid who worked in the fields before going to class.

[hbelkins]

I don't care about late sunrises. My waking time on work days is determined by an alarm clock, not by sunlight. All I do in the mornings is get up, get ready, and drive straight to work. I don't care if it's still dark when I get there. I do like having daylight after work, and it not being dark by the time I finish running errands (such as going to the store) before going home.

You've brought this up before and I can't get my head around the idea that daylight has no impact at all on one's ability to wake up. Have you not been affected at all by the time change this past weekend? Felt the least bit more tired in the morning, or the least bit more awake in the evening?

No. In fact, I felt better rested on Monday than I have in a long, long time.

We keep curtains closed in the evenings so you can't really see much sunlight coming in the windows in the mornings.

I don't really have a natural wake-up time. If not for the alarm clock, I would probably sleep until noon every day. Comes from having my sleep patterns disrupted when I was in college and we had to pull all-nighters putting the weekly campus newspaper out. Eight hours of sleep is not nearly enough for me. I function best on at least 10 hours of sleep.

[GaryV]

I've never known a farmer's kid who worked in the fields before going to class.

Maybe not out in the fields, but quite a few of them had morning chores to do before school. Harkening back to an older day perhaps ...

[tradephoric]

Here is a map looking at the number of days that see sunsets after 8:00PM.  Areas shaded purple indicate 0 days of sunset past 8:00PM thoughout the year.  Under the current status quo, only the states that observe standard time year round (Arizona & Hawaii), Florida's panhandle, and parts of Alabama never see sunsets past 8PM.  If the country abolished DST, large swathes of the country would never see sunsets past 8PM. 



The scenario is you live in California or the east coast, work till 5PM, struggle through traffic to get home by 6PM, make dinner for the family, eat, and by the time you are ready to relax it's 7PM.  You now have less than an hour to do something leisurely outside before the sun sets (even during the longest days of summer).  There's just way to much purple on that map if we abolish DST.

[kphoger]

I know I've said it on the other threads, but...  I don't care when the sun goes down.  I care when the sun comes up.

[tradephoric]

I know I've said it on the other threads, but...  I don't care when the sun goes down.  I care when the sun comes up.

Without DST, dawn would begin in Panama City, Florida as early as 4:12AM.  They like to party in Panama City and the bars don't close till 4AM.  The lights would quite literally come on to shut down the bars in Panama City if we didn't observe DST.  On the flip side, the sun would set in Panama City by 6:47PM during the longest day of the year.  Don't think the Florida tourist industry would ever get behind that.

[hotdogPi]

tradephoric, you're using a strawman argument. Nobody is trying to get rid of DST in the summer. The two options are leave it the way it is or go to permanent DST.

Also, already said yourself that Boston currently has a dawn of 4:32 AM. It doesn't cause any issues.

[tolbs17]

Pfft.  People who complain about dark mornings ruin the world.

Unless you are in Alaska.

Was directed towards Rothman's post.

So only people in Alaska who complain about dark mornings don't ruin the world?

Or people in Alaska who complain about dark mornings ruin the world for everyone except those in Alaska?

Yeah because they are NOT in the correct timezone.  Everybody else would be like wtf is Alaska doing?

[tradephoric]

tradephoric, you're using a strawman argument. Nobody is trying to get rid of DST in the summer. The two options are leave it the way it is or go to permanent DST.

You didn't read yesterday's Washington Post article then.  After the Senate voted unanimously to make daylight saving time permanent, the American Academy of Sleep Medicine is arguing that permanent standard time would be better than permanent daylight saving time...

Sleep experts say Senate has it wrong: Standard time, not daylight saving, should be permanent
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2022/03/16/daylight-saving-bill-health-effects/

Also, already said yourself that Boston currently has a dawn of 4:32 AM. It doesn't cause any issues.

A 4:30AM dawn in a touristy beach town may be more problematic than a 4:30AM dawn in Boston.  Plus if we get rid of DST, dawn in Boston would get moved up to 3:30AM.  Now is that too early?  When do bars in Boston close?  Maybe congress needs to pass a law stating that dawn should not begin before the bars close!

[tradephoric]

^Thanks kphoger i read this text yesterday as well and didn't fully comprehend it.  Does section (2) mean states will have till November 5, 2023 to decide if they want to observe permanent standard time and join Arizona and Hawaii?