Illinois Road Videos

[Rothman]

What I'm confused about is that Crash seems to think tourism to Chicago is at risk of being taken by Milwaukee?  In what reality has that ever been a thing? 

He seems pretty terrified of losing anything to Wisconsin, even if his fears are unfounded that Milwaukee will ever be a more appealing destination.

They do have the museum with the wings on top.  Milwaukee's a great place to visit.

Schlemiel, schlemazel...

Not disagreeing but Chicago certainly isn't at risk of losing many tourists to Milwaukee in the grand scheme of things.  Crash seems to think otherwise for some reason.

Sure it is.  Milwaukee is awesome.

It's mini-Chicago. But the real Chicago is more appealing to the majority of tourists.

Not for long.  Milwaukee's Riverwalk rivals anything along the Chicago River.

[Flint1979]

I've never had much of a problem in Detroit. Downtown is the safest part of the city and other than like Max said being asked for spare change is about the most you'll get bothered in downtown Detroit. Even in the most crime ridden parts of Detroit I've never really had much of a problem, places like 7 Mile and Gratiot which is just about the worst part of Detroit I've gone into stores in that area and never had a problem. Even going to Eastland Mall (which is now permanently closed) I never had a problem, likewise at the also now closed Northland Mall.

Frankly, this kind of comment annoys me.

Crime around 7 Mile in Detroit is really, really bad. You've never had a problem there? Good for you. But that doesn't override, or even make a scratch on, the statistics that show that Detroit is no doubt one of the 5 most dangerous cities in the country, with the 7 Mile area being one of the worst neighborhoods in it.

7 Mile crosses the entire city it's a pretty long street. I certainly wouldn't feel unsafe around Palmer Park or Palmer Woods.

Ah, the old "pick at a technicality so as to avoid the point" maneuver.

How about I fix it for you:

Crime around 7 Mile between Kelly and I-75 in Detroit is really, really bad. You've never had a problem there? Good for you. But that doesn't override, or even make a scratch on, the statistics that show that Detroit is no doubt one of the 5 most dangerous cities in the country, with the 7 Mile area between Kelly and I-75 being one of the worst neighborhoods in it.

Crime around 7 Mile between Kelly and I-75 is really really bad, no kidding it sounds as if you are trying to tell me something I don't know. And no I haven't had a problem there because I don't go looking for problems and know enough to go the other way when problems are happening. How is 7 Mile between Kelly and I-75 a neighborhood though?

[thspfc]

I've never had much of a problem in Detroit. Downtown is the safest part of the city and other than like Max said being asked for spare change is about the most you'll get bothered in downtown Detroit. Even in the most crime ridden parts of Detroit I've never really had much of a problem, places like 7 Mile and Gratiot which is just about the worst part of Detroit I've gone into stores in that area and never had a problem. Even going to Eastland Mall (which is now permanently closed) I never had a problem, likewise at the also now closed Northland Mall.

Frankly, this kind of comment annoys me.

Crime around 7 Mile in Detroit is really, really bad. You've never had a problem there? Good for you. But that doesn't override, or even make a scratch on, the statistics that show that Detroit is no doubt one of the 5 most dangerous cities in the country, with the 7 Mile area being one of the worst neighborhoods in it.

Never had a problem around 7 Mile myself either.

I don't care.

Then why voice your opinion or respond to me if you are so resolute in it?  Have you even been to some of these places we are discussing in Detroit?  Do you thinking roving gangs are just sitting on standby waiting to strike?  Detroit is the leader in a lot of bad categories domestically for crime, but it definitely is not stepping into a Robocop movie either.

Ha, I knew you were going to ask me if I've been there. That question completely misses the conversation.

Personal anecdotes don't override decades' worth of closely tracked statistics. Full stop. It doesn't matter if I've been there or not (I haven't, and trying to use that against me would once again miss the point).

Do I think I'd be walking into a firing squad or anything? No. Chances are, nothing bad would happen if I were to go there. But bad things would be more likely to happen there than damn near anywhere else in the country.

So basically you have zero experience with the topic at hand (Detroit and the Uniform Crime Report) and you have a set perception in your mind based of UCR violent crime statistics.  How does that sway the argument in your favor exactly?  You seem to have the same problem Crash does, the UCR doesn't actually provide context for the crime statistics it cites.  But if you want to live a sheltered existence based on what you read in UCR statistics that's cool, you do you.

Now you have me curious what your thoughts are on traveling to crime prone cities in places like Central America.

I'm not interested in going to Central America anytime soon. If I ever was to go there, I wouldn't go to the bad parts - exactly the same situation as when I go to Detroit, and I would think Detroit is safer than most of those cities. I have no interest in getting out of a car in the worst areas of Detroit (though I think driving through could be a valuable experience).

I understand that the vast majority of Detroit crime is not targeted towards visitors - that's the case in every city. However, I can't imagine that Detroit visitors are less likely to be the victim of property/violent crime during their stay than visitors to the host of safer cities are during their stays.

If there's evidence that says otherwise, then sure. But at least right now I have no reason to believe that Detroit is somehow safer for tourists than most cities. As a result I'm hesitant to go to dangerous Detroit neighborhoods.

[thspfc]

I've never had much of a problem in Detroit. Downtown is the safest part of the city and other than like Max said being asked for spare change is about the most you'll get bothered in downtown Detroit. Even in the most crime ridden parts of Detroit I've never really had much of a problem, places like 7 Mile and Gratiot which is just about the worst part of Detroit I've gone into stores in that area and never had a problem. Even going to Eastland Mall (which is now permanently closed) I never had a problem, likewise at the also now closed Northland Mall.

Frankly, this kind of comment annoys me.

Crime around 7 Mile in Detroit is really, really bad. You've never had a problem there? Good for you. But that doesn't override, or even make a scratch on, the statistics that show that Detroit is no doubt one of the 5 most dangerous cities in the country, with the 7 Mile area being one of the worst neighborhoods in it.

7 Mile crosses the entire city it's a pretty long street. I certainly wouldn't feel unsafe around Palmer Park or Palmer Woods.

Ah, the old "pick at a technicality so as to avoid the point" maneuver.

How about I fix it for you:

Crime around 7 Mile between Kelly and I-75 in Detroit is really, really bad. You've never had a problem there? Good for you. But that doesn't override, or even make a scratch on, the statistics that show that Detroit is no doubt one of the 5 most dangerous cities in the country, with the 7 Mile area between Kelly and I-75 being one of the worst neighborhoods in it.

Crime around 7 Mile between Kelly and I-75 is really really bad, no kidding it sounds as if you are trying to tell me something I don't know. And no I haven't had a problem there because I don't go looking for problems and know enough to go the other way when problems are happening. How is 7 Mile between Kelly and I-75 a neighborhood though?

I think we're mostly on the same page, though I see you couldn't resist the urge to pick at another technicality, this time with semi-official neighborhoods.

[Flint1979]

I've never had much of a problem in Detroit. Downtown is the safest part of the city and other than like Max said being asked for spare change is about the most you'll get bothered in downtown Detroit. Even in the most crime ridden parts of Detroit I've never really had much of a problem, places like 7 Mile and Gratiot which is just about the worst part of Detroit I've gone into stores in that area and never had a problem. Even going to Eastland Mall (which is now permanently closed) I never had a problem, likewise at the also now closed Northland Mall.

Frankly, this kind of comment annoys me.

Crime around 7 Mile in Detroit is really, really bad. You've never had a problem there? Good for you. But that doesn't override, or even make a scratch on, the statistics that show that Detroit is no doubt one of the 5 most dangerous cities in the country, with the 7 Mile area being one of the worst neighborhoods in it.

7 Mile crosses the entire city it's a pretty long street. I certainly wouldn't feel unsafe around Palmer Park or Palmer Woods.

Ah, the old "pick at a technicality so as to avoid the point" maneuver.

How about I fix it for you:

Crime around 7 Mile between Kelly and I-75 in Detroit is really, really bad. You've never had a problem there? Good for you. But that doesn't override, or even make a scratch on, the statistics that show that Detroit is no doubt one of the 5 most dangerous cities in the country, with the 7 Mile area between Kelly and I-75 being one of the worst neighborhoods in it.

Crime around 7 Mile between Kelly and I-75 is really really bad, no kidding it sounds as if you are trying to tell me something I don't know. And no I haven't had a problem there because I don't go looking for problems and know enough to go the other way when problems are happening. How is 7 Mile between Kelly and I-75 a neighborhood though?

I think we're mostly on the same page, though I see you couldn't resist the urge to pick at another technicality, this time with semi-official neighborhoods.

I lived in the area in the 90's for a bit. It's certainly gone downhill more since then. I lived off of 7 Mile and Van Dyke on a street called Stockton I didn't have any problems when I was there though and I knew several people that lived around me too. The actual worst of it is east of Gratiot.

[Max Rockatansky]

I've never had much of a problem in Detroit. Downtown is the safest part of the city and other than like Max said being asked for spare change is about the most you'll get bothered in downtown Detroit. Even in the most crime ridden parts of Detroit I've never really had much of a problem, places like 7 Mile and Gratiot which is just about the worst part of Detroit I've gone into stores in that area and never had a problem. Even going to Eastland Mall (which is now permanently closed) I never had a problem, likewise at the also now closed Northland Mall.

Frankly, this kind of comment annoys me.

Crime around 7 Mile in Detroit is really, really bad. You've never had a problem there? Good for you. But that doesn't override, or even make a scratch on, the statistics that show that Detroit is no doubt one of the 5 most dangerous cities in the country, with the 7 Mile area being one of the worst neighborhoods in it.

Never had a problem around 7 Mile myself either.

I don't care.

Then why voice your opinion or respond to me if you are so resolute in it?  Have you even been to some of these places we are discussing in Detroit?  Do you thinking roving gangs are just sitting on standby waiting to strike?  Detroit is the leader in a lot of bad categories domestically for crime, but it definitely is not stepping into a Robocop movie either.

Ha, I knew you were going to ask me if I've been there. That question completely misses the conversation.

Personal anecdotes don't override decades' worth of closely tracked statistics. Full stop. It doesn't matter if I've been there or not (I haven't, and trying to use that against me would once again miss the point).

Do I think I'd be walking into a firing squad or anything? No. Chances are, nothing bad would happen if I were to go there. But bad things would be more likely to happen there than damn near anywhere else in the country.

So basically you have zero experience with the topic at hand (Detroit and the Uniform Crime Report) and you have a set perception in your mind based of UCR violent crime statistics.  How does that sway the argument in your favor exactly?  You seem to have the same problem Crash does, the UCR doesn't actually provide context for the crime statistics it cites.  But if you want to live a sheltered existence based on what you read in UCR statistics that's cool, you do you.

Now you have me curious what your thoughts are on traveling to crime prone cities in places like Central America.

I'm not interested in going to Central America anytime soon. If I ever was to go there, I wouldn't go to the bad parts - exactly the same situation as when I go to Detroit, and I would think Detroit is safer than most of those cities. I have no interest in getting out of a car in the worst areas of Detroit (though I think driving through could be a valuable experience).

I understand that the vast majority of Detroit crime is not targeted towards visitors - that's the case in every city. However, I can't imagine that Detroit visitors are less likely to be the victim of property/violent crime during their stay than visitors to the host of safer cities are during their stays.

If there's evidence that says otherwise, then sure. But at least right now I have no reason to believe that Detroit is somehow safer for tourists than most cities. As a result I'm hesitant to go to dangerous Detroit neighborhoods.

Okay, risk aversion it is.  FWIW I did note above Detroit was near the top (if not traditionally the top) of a lot of UCR categories.  I wasn't also throwing out a recommendation that Detroit is a city I think everyone should visit.  There is a lot of poverty, crime and depression in Detroit, it can be an incredibly sad place.

I'm certainly not afraid to visit Detroit and other American cities like it.  All the same I'm there is a lot obscure hobbies I'm into like taking photos of old infrastructure and buildings, that is something Detroit offers probably more than any other major American city.  I never been accosted by violent crime engaging in those activities nor was I when I lived there (it is my home city).

[Max Rockatansky]

Total aside, after my wife (a Californian) and I got married we went on our honeymoon trip to the Midwest.  Said trip included stops in Detroit and Chicago.  While we were in Detroit she told me that she really wanted to see 8 Mile Road.  I ended up taking her from a Tigers Game via Grand River to 8 Mile where my Grandparents lived in Redford Township.  From there we went west on 8 Mile Road to Haggerty Road past two offices my Dad worked at.  We ended up eating lunch at the Big Boy at 8 Mile and Haggerty.  I've never seen look my wife so disappointed by a place anywhere we have visited, she thought 8 Mile Road was going to be like how it was presented in the Marshall Mathers movie.

Later in the trip we visited the Pullman neighborhood in Chicago.  That fit much more closely to the visual expectation my wife had for 8 Mile Road. 

[kphoger]

How about we throw some actual data into the conversation, people?

(I fully understand that Chicago violence has increased since 2019, but this is the best I could do.)

[hbelkins]

For what it's worth, noted Michigander Ted Nugent was saying Detroit was "the murder capital of the world" back in the 1970s.

[thspfc]

I've never had much of a problem in Detroit. Downtown is the safest part of the city and other than like Max said being asked for spare change is about the most you'll get bothered in downtown Detroit. Even in the most crime ridden parts of Detroit I've never really had much of a problem, places like 7 Mile and Gratiot which is just about the worst part of Detroit I've gone into stores in that area and never had a problem. Even going to Eastland Mall (which is now permanently closed) I never had a problem, likewise at the also now closed Northland Mall.

Frankly, this kind of comment annoys me.

Crime around 7 Mile in Detroit is really, really bad. You've never had a problem there? Good for you. But that doesn't override, or even make a scratch on, the statistics that show that Detroit is no doubt one of the 5 most dangerous cities in the country, with the 7 Mile area being one of the worst neighborhoods in it.

Never had a problem around 7 Mile myself either.

I don't care.

Then why voice your opinion or respond to me if you are so resolute in it?  Have you even been to some of these places we are discussing in Detroit?  Do you thinking roving gangs are just sitting on standby waiting to strike?  Detroit is the leader in a lot of bad categories domestically for crime, but it definitely is not stepping into a Robocop movie either.

Ha, I knew you were going to ask me if I've been there. That question completely misses the conversation.

Personal anecdotes don't override decades' worth of closely tracked statistics. Full stop. It doesn't matter if I've been there or not (I haven't, and trying to use that against me would once again miss the point).

Do I think I'd be walking into a firing squad or anything? No. Chances are, nothing bad would happen if I were to go there. But bad things would be more likely to happen there than damn near anywhere else in the country.

So, no, you haven't been there.

Troll 💀

[Max Rockatansky]

For what it's worth, noted Michigander Ted Nugent was saying Detroit was "the murder capital of the world" back in the 1970s.

The total homicide count for 1987-2016:

https://detroitmi.gov/sites/detroitmi.localhost/files/2018-06/2016%20DPD%20Homicides.pdf

1964-1975:

https://www.clickondetroit.com/features/2017/02/22/from-the-vault-1975-special-on-murder-in-detroit/

I'm missing the data for 1976-1986 but I believe there was at least one year in the late 1970s where recordable homicides did top 800.

[paulthemapguy]

For what it's worth, noted Michigander Ted Nugent was saying Detroit was "the murder capital of the world" back in the 1970s.

It's not worth nothing, because noted Michigander Ted Nugent is a racist piece of garbage. He's the type who will base the favorability of a place on its whiteness, just like a large proportion of America's white population unfortunately would.

And this is the AARoads forum...nitpicking at technicalities is most of what we do here.

Went to Detroit a year ago, and I was amazed by the amount of decay.  It's not concentrated into neighborhoods like what I've seen of Chicago--it's widespread.  (I admit I haven't been to Chicago's South Side much--it might be more widespread there, too.) I like seeing the backdrops to where people live their lives, though, so it was really interesting to see, in a sad way.

Milwaukee might be a really nice place to visit, but its smaller size will simply make it less appealing to prospective tourists.  I don't see Milwaukee getting the "world-class city" treatment like Chicago does, just because it's not as big of a business giant with not as high a population.  Is that fair? Probably not.  But Milwaukee isn't going to start garnering more attention than Chicago does anytime soon.  I won't argue whether Milwaukee is more or less deserving of the attention, though; that's completely subjective.

[Flint1979]

I like Ted Nugent but he also called Michigan a California shithole. I like his music though.

[Rothman]

Ted Nugent is a bad man.

[Flint1979]

For what it's worth, noted Michigander Ted Nugent was saying Detroit was "the murder capital of the world" back in the 1970s.

It's not worth nothing, because noted Michigander Ted Nugent is a racist piece of garbage. He's the type who will base the favorability of a place on its whiteness, just like a large proportion of America's white population unfortunately would.

And this is the AARoads forum...nitpicking at technicalities is most of what we do here.

Went to Detroit a year ago, and I was amazed by the amount of decay.  It's not concentrated into neighborhoods like what I've seen of Chicago--it's widespread.  (I admit I haven't been to Chicago's South Side much--it might be more widespread there, too.) I like seeing the backdrops to where people live their lives, though, so it was really interesting to see, in a sad way.

Milwaukee might be a really nice place to visit, but its smaller size will simply make it less appealing to prospective tourists.  I don't see Milwaukee getting the "world-class city" treatment like Chicago does, just because it's not as big of a business giant with not as high a population.  Is that fair? Probably not.  But Milwaukee isn't going to start garnering more attention than Chicago does anytime soon.  I won't argue whether Milwaukee is more or less deserving of the attention, though; that's completely subjective.

Well I've been to the Southside of Chicago and most of it is in decay just like Detroit. I've often said that if you want to see Detroit just visit the Southside of Chicago and that is what Detroit is like. Detroit is comparable to Chicago they both have the same Urban headaches.

[Max Rockatansky]

I think it's safe to say that there was very likely several cities in the world during the 1970s exceeding the 700-800 homicides Detroit was having.

[kphoger]

I think it's safe to say that there was very likely several cities in the world during the 1970s exceeding the 700-800 homicides Detroit was having.

Total numbers don't mean much, because population sizes aren't necessarily comparable.

700 homicides in a city of 3 million isn't the same thing as 700 homicides in a city of 1½ million.

[Max Rockatansky]

I think it's safe to say that there was very likely several cities in the world during the 1970s exceeding the 700-800 homicides Detroit was having.

Total numbers don't mean much, because population sizes aren't necessarily comparable.

700 homicides in a city of 3 million isn't the same thing as 700 homicides in a city of 1½ million.

Right, but we are going by the notion that a city is the "murder capital of the world"  I just don't think even 1970s American city is going to be in the running for that title.

But to your point, at the time Detroit was half the size population wise roughly of modern Chicago but had a similar overall number of murders.  Suffice to say that murder rate was far higher than in Detroit than it is now in Chicago. 

[Flint1979]

That's true Detroit seems worse than Chicago because it's much smaller than Chicago if Chicago and Detroit were the same size then maybe we could compare them.

[kphoger]

That's true Detroit seems worse than Chicago because it's much smaller than Chicago if Chicago and Detroit were the same size then maybe we could compare them.

I did compare them.  The data I plotted earlier is for per 100,000 population.  It's fairly easy to do the same for homicides, if you'd like.

[Max Rockatansky]

That's true Detroit seems worse than Chicago because it's much smaller than Chicago if Chicago and Detroit were the same size then maybe we could compare them.

I did compare them.  The data I plotted earlier is for per 100,000 population.  It's fairly easy to do the same for homicides, if you'd like.

Which is how the UCR rates violent crime statistics, per 100,000 residents.  The UCR does rank the most violent crime prone cities per 100,000 versus sheer statistical volume such as "total homicides." 

Here is a sample I ran for Fresno based off the 2020 UCR:

https://crime-data-explorer.app.cloud.gov/pages/explorer/crime/crime-trend

[kphoger]

How about we throw some actual data into the conversation, people?

(I fully understand that Chicago violence has increased since 2019, but this is the best I could do.)

As promised, here is the same chart, but for murder instead of assault.

For what it's worth, Chicago hit 765 murders in 2016, but Detroit's murder rate was still more than 60% higher than Chicago's that year.

In 2020, Chicago had 784 murders.  In 2021, it had 797.  Even so, its homicide rate was still well below Detroit's.  And besides, why is nobody talking about Saint Louis?

[Max Rockatansky]

Where did Flint rank on the UCR last year?  Typically that's also in the top five annually for violent crime along with Detroit. 

[kphoger]

I'm not using the UCR data, but Flint appears to be up there with Detroit from what I'm seeing.

[hbelkins]

That's true Detroit seems worse than Chicago because it's much smaller than Chicago if Chicago and Detroit were the same size then maybe we could compare them.

I did compare them.  The data I plotted earlier is for per 100,000 population.  It's fairly easy to do the same for homicides, if you'd like.

Which is how the UCR rates violent crime statistics, per 100,000 residents.  The UCR does rank the most violent crime prone cities per 100,000 versus sheer statistical volume such as "total homicides." 

I have the same problem with determining crime rates based on a standard of "per 100,000 residents" as I did with the covid incidence rate being based on that figure.

It really skews the rate higher for small communities.

One or two murders -- or one of two covid cases -- in a community like mine with a population of 7,000 really skews the rate up, while it's statistically meaningless in a larger community. I always thought a better indicator would be the actual percentage of residents who had tested positive for covid. My county was one of the last ones in Kentucky to record a case, but it spent considerable time in the red zone, which alarmed a lot of people. When you did the math and realized how few cases that high "incidence rate" really was, it wasn't quite so panicky.

The Ted Nugent reference was from the way he introduced one of the songs on his "Double Live Gonzo" album released in the 1970s. He wasn't citing actual statistics, but was repeating a popular claim.