EV pickup range while towing

[ethanhopkin14]

The 36 gallon tank ain't standard. 23 & 26 gallon tanks are, giving you a third less ramge than you tried claiming. You're looking at the premium F-150 truck lines, which start around $75,000.

Nice try compaing apples with bananas buddy.

With the 23 gallon tank and the 15.7 MPG fuel mileage while towing that you cited, the F-150 will go 361.1 miles on a full tank.  More importantly it only takes 5 minutes to fill up.  The EV F-150 Lightning has a long way to go before matching that.

Except on the rare long-haul trips, most will charge them overnight at home, taking a few seconds to plug in and unplug, without needs to stop on the road at all.

I don't necessarily consider 100 miles a "long-haul trip" when someone is towing their trailer in a F-150 Lightning.  Imagine a contractor who is towing heavy equipment to a job site... you can't see them having to drive over 100 miles during the course of the day?  Instead of a quick 5-minute fill up they are burning daylight waiting 45-minutes to charge up.  And with the F-150 Lightning they are burning 45-minutes of daylight for every 100 miles they have to drive during their day...

Sounds like they purchased the wrong vehicle then. 

Here's a great list of F-150 towing capacities. https://www.cornerstoneplymouth.com/ford-f-150-towing-capacities/ .  If the contractor went cheap with a 3.3L Ti-VCT V6, they would be screwed if the job required them to be towing a 10,000 lb piece of equipment.  Instead, they'd be burning daylight going to the rental depot to get another vehicle that could tow what was needed to be towed, or paying someone else, burning cash.

You can always make strawman arguments to fit your beliefs.  Anyone looking to purchase a vehicle should be looking at all vehicles on the market today that'll fit their needs, and write-off the ones that don't.

Every business that has ever been in business goes cheap when it comes to equipment. I deal with the ramifications of that daily.  To think that a company or contractor would splurge and buy the most expensive truck to get the most time between charges is fiction.  Every company ever sees more expensive tools as a money dump.  Lets limp the cheap tool around instead of buying the one that cost 3x more because we can immediately see the impact an expensive tool is on our budget.  Buy the cheep version and hope our labor can power through it and/or the tool just was a better made one than the rest on the day it was made!

[ethanhopkin14]

Believe it or not, there are people who already stop to stretch and use the restroom that often.  And again, you're assuming no improvements over the next decade.

Just drove my family from LA to Sedona.  If I had stopped every 100 miles to take a 50-to-90 minute stretch and pee break, it would have added a minimum of four additional hours to the trip and I would have had a mutiny on my hands.  No thanks.

"Sorry honey, we can't make our family trip in the same time as we always have because the powers that be decided we needed an electric vehicle and said it was okay for charging to happen more frequently and take longer than gassing up because most people take breaks more often now, despite the fact that we don't!"

What kind of reasoning is, since most do, now all have to?

I agree with you, if my wife and I had to travel in an electric car and now our entire travel schedule was completely dependent and hijacked by the car's needs, we would be beyond infuriated.  "Remember when we used to take a week off for our vacation?  Now we have to take two weeks off now, one week just to get where we are going since we can't drive very far each day, but it's okay, because other people don't drive a lot per day.  Also, remember how I don't have two weeks vacation?  I know, pretty cool, huh!"

[JayhawkCO]

Assuming a doubling of energy density in batteries every decade, by 2032 with the same sized battery pack you could expect to see a driving range of about 200 miles while towing a camper in an EV pickup as opposed to the 100 miles we see today.  Still not overly impressive considering you can currently drive over 300 miles while towing a camper in most ICE pickups.

But that's my point - how many people are going to be interested in going 300 miles without stopping (whether towing or not)?  I've done it on all-interstate driving before, but only the first 150 miles is really comfortable, the next 150 is with my bladder being a nuisance.  And if I had a whole glass of water or something before that driving leg, the comfortable range drops down to 100 miles, maybe even less.

I know I'm probably abnormal, but even drinking a decent amount of water, I can regularly go two fill-ups in when driving before I need to pee. I get I'm only 40 and my prostate seems to be a normal size, but I can't imagine it's that normal for people to need to stop every 150 miles when driving on the interstate. My wife and I drive to Kansas City a lot to see family, and we never stop before Colby which is 224 miles away, most of the time pushing onwards to Hays (330 miles).

[tradephoric]

But that's my point - how many people are going to be interested in going 300 miles without stopping (whether towing or not)?  I've done it on all-interstate driving before, but only the first 150 miles is really comfortable, the next 150 is with my bladder being a nuisance.  And if I had a whole glass of water or something before that driving leg, the comfortable range drops down to 100 miles, maybe even less.

Hmmm... i never thought of it this way.  The EV is actually doing us all a favor by making us stop more frequently to use the bathroom and save our bladders.  I should be thankful i can only drive 100 miles between charges (while towing) when previously i could go 300 miles between fill-ups (while towing).  Thank you EVs, you are so helpful!

[jeffandnicole]

The 36 gallon tank ain't standard. 23 & 26 gallon tanks are, giving you a third less ramge than you tried claiming. You're looking at the premium F-150 truck lines, which start around $75,000.

Nice try compaing apples with bananas buddy.

With the 23 gallon tank and the 15.7 MPG fuel mileage while towing that you cited, the F-150 will go 361.1 miles on a full tank.  More importantly it only takes 5 minutes to fill up.  The EV F-150 Lightning has a long way to go before matching that.

Except on the rare long-haul trips, most will charge them overnight at home, taking a few seconds to plug in and unplug, without needs to stop on the road at all.

I don't necessarily consider 100 miles a "long-haul trip" when someone is towing their trailer in a F-150 Lightning.  Imagine a contractor who is towing heavy equipment to a job site... you can't see them having to drive over 100 miles during the course of the day?  Instead of a quick 5-minute fill up they are burning daylight waiting 45-minutes to charge up.  And with the F-150 Lightning they are burning 45-minutes of daylight for every 100 miles they have to drive during their day...

Sounds like they purchased the wrong vehicle then. 

Here's a great list of F-150 towing capacities. https://www.cornerstoneplymouth.com/ford-f-150-towing-capacities/ .  If the contractor went cheap with a 3.3L Ti-VCT V6, they would be screwed if the job required them to be towing a 10,000 lb piece of equipment.  Instead, they'd be burning daylight going to the rental depot to get another vehicle that could tow what was needed to be towed, or paying someone else, burning cash.

You can always make strawman arguments to fit your beliefs.  Anyone looking to purchase a vehicle should be looking at all vehicles on the market today that'll fit their needs, and write-off the ones that don't.

Every business that has ever been in business goes cheep when it comes to equipment. I deal with the ramifications of that daily.  To think that a company or contractor would splurge and buy the most expensive truck to get the most time between charges is fiction.  Every company ever sees more expensive tools as a money dump.  Lets limp the cheep tool around instead of buying the one that cost 3x more because we can immediately see the impact an expensive tool is on our budget.  Buy the cheep version and hope our labor can power through it and/or the tool just was a better made one than the rest on the day it was made!

Every business that produces high end equipment doesn't sell anything and goes out of business?  Who's buying those high-end F-150 trucks...the same ones people claim don't have money to spend on an EV, but can spend the money on a $90,000 F-150? 

No doubt quite a number of businesses go cheap (and probably end up being businesses that don't last or don't have great ratings, employees, etc), but certainly not every business has this mindset.

If a business is going to buy a cheap EV and not get that much time between charges, they're also going to buy a cheap ICE truck and probably get lower fuel mileage and more transmission issues hauling and towing above their rated payload.

I know I'm probably abnormal, but even drinking a decent amount of water, I can regularly go two fill-ups in when driving before I need to pee. I get I'm only 40 and my prostate seems to be a normal size, but I can't imagine it's that normal for people to need to stop every 150 miles when driving on the interstate. My wife and I drive to Kansas City a lot to see family, and we never stop before Colby which is 224 miles away, most of the time pushing onwards to Hays (330 miles).

In the newspaper last week was a large ad for traveling to various National Parks.  They interviewed AAA for a small story, which said that motorists should stop every 60 - 90 minutes to stretch and walk around.  For them to suggest such a short time frame means that, for many people with long commutes, they would need to stop just on their commute to work.  Has the AAA been suggesting rest areas in urban locations?  Or maybe nearly every single movie needs an intermission, since they'll last over 90 minutes.   Nearly every single flight should see everyone get up and walk around the cabin.  For what it's worth, everytime AAA gets their business in the paper, there's going to be some head-scratching comment that reminds me why I won't spend my money with them.

[tradephoric]

Semi-trucks have upwards to 300 gallon tanks.  Assuming 6 mpg, a semi can travel 1800 miles between fill ups.  Similarly, a gallon of gas weighs 6 lbs so the energy density to travel those 1800 miles would equal 1800 lbs.  How much would a Tesla semi weigh assuming an equivalent 1800 mile range? 

Edit:  i didn't expect much difference but a gallon of diesel weighs around 7 lbs, not 6 lbs like for a gallon of gas. 

[JayhawkCO]

In the newspaper last week was a large ad for traveling to various National Parks.  They interviewed AAA for a small story, which said that motorists should stop every 60 - 90 minutes to stretch and walk around.  For them to suggest such a short time frame means that, for many people with long commutes, they would need to stop just on their commute to work.  Has the AAA been suggesting rest areas in urban locations?  Or maybe nearly every single movie needs an intermission, since they'll last over 90 minutes.   Nearly every single flight should see everyone get up and walk around the cabin.  For what it's worth, everytime AAA gets their business in the paper, there's going to be some head-scratching comment that reminds me why I won't spend my money with them.

And apparently all people should wake up at least three times throughout the night to stretch too.

[Rothman]

This thread is mud.

[Scott5114]

I can already feel this turning into another crash-prone modern roundabouts-type argument thread...

Your previous post has already indicated your disregard and disinterest to EV towing range.  It's not important to you as "most people don't tow trailers".  If that's your mindset, any post you make regarding this topic is not likely to be constructive.  Find another thread to cause drama in.

Don't tell people what to do.

[ethanhopkin14]

When the first gas powered car came out, the governments didn't announce they would ban horses in ten years of them coming out.

In fact the opposite happened.  Many people weren't convinced about the new cars and continued to use their horse.  The other reason was until Henry Ford made the assembly line more streamline, causing the price to go down, only the rich could afford them.

I am telling you right now, I can't afford a Tesla, and I don't have much confidence I can afford one in 10 years. 

[Scott5114]

That's because horse emissions aren't responsible for the weather you're forecast to have tomorrow.

I can't afford a Tesla either, and wouldn't buy one if I could. I can't afford a Cadillac either. There are other manufacturers, though.

[Bruce]

I've spent quite a bit of time this year road-tripping with friends in an EV and can say that it does have an effect on what we can and can't see, but it's not that pronounced. We'd typically have to stop every few hours anyway for a sit-down meal or a restroom break due to individual needs, and the chargers weren't too out of the way for either.

One additional thing that had to be considered, however, was charging at night to prep for a full day of driving. I would usually take the EV myself to the nearest supercharger (which might be 10 minutes from the hotel) and just rest there for 20-30 minutes watching a TV episode or sorting photos. Had I been solo driving in my ICE vehicle, I would've spent that time in the hotel room anyway, so it's not much of a loss personally but I could see it being annoying for others.

[formulanone]

That's because horse emissions aren't responsible for the weather you're forecast to have tomorrow.

Unless it's a gift from the Trojans.

[jeffandnicole]

When the first gas powered car came out, the governments didn't announce they would ban horses in ten years of them coming out.

If this statement was true, ICE vehicles would have already been banned.

[tradephoric]

That's because horse emissions aren't responsible for the weather you're forecast to have tomorrow.

Unless it's a gift from the Trojans.

A horse produces 20.7 kilograms of methane gas per year.  Methane is a greenhouse gas that increases the potential for global warming.

[NJRoadfan]

One thing that I don't see coming up here is the efficiency of vehicles propelled by electric drive trains vs. ICE. The internal combustion engine is limited in how much mechanical energy it can extract from fuel (the Carnot limit, which in automotive applications is very difficult to come close to). Also one has to add in the drive train losses from needing a multi gear transmission. Even though you are carrying a heavy battery, you are getting much better use of the energy stored in that battery vs. that tank of gasoline.

[Scott5114]

That's because horse emissions aren't responsible for the weather you're forecast to have tomorrow.

Unless it's a gift from the Trojans.

A horse produces 20.7 kilograms of methane gas per year.  Methane is a greenhouse gas that increases the potential for global warming.

Yeah, and if everyone still rode a horse to work that might be a problem.

[tradephoric]

You do realize there are still horses in the world right?  They don't only produce kilograms of methane gas when pushing a buggy around. 

[Scott5114]

You do realize there are still horses in the world right?  They don't only produce kilograms of methane gas when pushing a buggy around. 

You do realize your argument is horseshit, right?

[tradephoric]

You do realize there are still horses in the world right?  They don't only produce kilograms of methane gas when pushing a buggy around. 

You do realize your argument is horseshit, right?

Bovine flatulence is a large contributor to global warming:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6z8BqsHQl0

[Scott5114]

You do realize there are still horses in the world right?  They don't only produce kilograms of methane gas when pushing a buggy around. 

You do realize your argument is horseshit, right?

Bovine flatulence is a large contributor to global warming:

And Salt Lake City is the capital of Utah. So what?

I don't think anyone's planning on coming out with electric cows any time soon so it's not relevant to what's being discussed.

[tradephoric]

That's because horse emissions aren't responsible for the weather you're forecast to have tomorrow.

I can't afford a Tesla either, and wouldn't buy one if I could. I can't afford a Cadillac either. There are other manufacturers, though.

Scott, you are the one that stated that horse emissions aren't responsible for the weather you're forecast to have tomorrow.  Yet methane gas (think horse and cow farts) can be a big contributor to global warming and is something scientists are seriously considering.  Who's full of shit now?

[skluth]

But that's my point - how many people are going to be interested in going 300 miles without stopping (whether towing or not)?  I've done it on all-interstate driving before, but only the first 150 miles is really comfortable, the next 150 is with my bladder being a nuisance.  And if I had a whole glass of water or something before that driving leg, the comfortable range drops down to 100 miles, maybe even less.

Hmmm... i never thought of it this way.  The EV is actually doing us all a favor by making us stop more frequently to use the bathroom and save our bladders.  I should be thankful i can only drive 100 miles between charges (while towing) when previously i could go 300 miles between fill-ups (while towing).  Thank you EVs, you are so helpful!

That's why I no longer go to the movies. I can't make it more than 90 minutes in theater-level AC without needing to hit the rest room just as Luke blows up the Death Star.

[Scott5114]

That's because horse emissions aren't responsible for the weather you're forecast to have tomorrow.

I can't afford a Tesla either, and wouldn't buy one if I could. I can't afford a Cadillac either. There are other manufacturers, though.

Scott, you are the one that stated that horse emissions aren't responsible for the weather you're forecast to have tomorrow.  Yet methane gas (think horse and cow farts) can be a big contributor to global warming and is something scientists are seriously considering.  Who's full of shit now?

You are, because you're throwing red herrings out about horse farts in a thread about electric vehicles. Agriculture is only responsible for 11% of greenhouse gas emissions, and of that 11%, just over half is due to soil management practices. So let's say 5.5% horse farts. By comparison, 27% of greenhouse gas emissions are from transportation.

If you were tasked on coming up with a way to lower greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and you decide to focus on horse farts, you're a moron.

[tradephoric]

You are, because you're throwing red herrings out about horse farts in a thread about electric vehicles. Agriculture is only responsible for 11% of greenhouse gas emissions, and of that 11%, just over half is due to soil management practices. So let's say 5.5% horse farts. By comparison, 27% of greenhouse gas emissions are from transportation.

If you were tasked on coming up with a way to lower greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and you decide to focus on horse farts, you're a moron.

Your statistics only account for U.S. greenhouse gas emissions.  Globally the agricultural industry accounts for 24% of greenhouse gases while transportation accounts for 14%.  So the agricultural sector produces nearly double the amount of greenhouse gases than the transportation sector globally.  If you want to have the greatest impact on reducing global greenhouse gas emissions, it's not moronic at all to focus on the sectors that produce the greatest greenhouse gases. 


https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emissions-data