StreetsBlog: Tear down these 10 freeways

[pianocello]

That's what I'm thinking. I guess these bridges don't count and they want just a big open field/beach with no roads

I think the best solution would be large, oversized bridges at pedestrian level/mini tunnels at car level that don't feel like bridges from the surface. The best example I can think is the one recently constructed on MD-200 (ICC).

You mean like this? (I-90 in Mercer Island, WA)

[jakeroot]

That's what I'm thinking. I guess these bridges don't count and they want just a big open field/beach with no roads

I think the best solution would be large, oversized bridges at pedestrian level/mini tunnels at car level that don't feel like bridges from the surface. The best example I can think is the one recently constructed on MD-200 (ICC).

You mean like this? (I-90 in Mercer Island, WA)

Any environment that feels predominately focused on a single transportation method will generally be hated by someone. I-90 over Mercer Washington is indeed one of the few places where you actually feel as though cars/buses/cyclists/pedestrians can actually get along w/o conflict. And, the whole area is functional too, unlike those weird 6-7 inch tablets that try to do everything but succeed at nothing; traffic rarely backs up in that area, and as Mercer Island is made up entirely of rich folk, the whole cycling/pedestrian environment must work pretty well too.

[Laura]

That's what I'm thinking. I guess these bridges don't count and they want just a big open field/beach with no roads

I think the best solution would be large, oversized bridges at pedestrian level/mini tunnels at car level that don't feel like bridges from the surface. The best example I can think is the one recently constructed on MD-200 (ICC).

You mean like this? (I-90 in Mercer Island, WA)

Any environment that feels predominately focused on a single transportation method will generally be hated by someone. I-90 over Mercer Washington is indeed one of the few places where you actually feel as though cars/buses/cyclists/pedestrians can actually get along w/o conflict. And, the whole area is functional too, unlike those weird 6-7 inch tablets that try to do everything but succeed at nothing; traffic rarely backs up in that area, and as Mercer Island is made up entirely of rich folk, the whole cycling/pedestrian environment must work pretty well too.

That's exactly what I had in mind.


iPhone

[amroad17]

As for the 10 freeways mentioned in the article, most, if not all, were constructed in the 1960's to early 1970's.  Many of these freeways were planned through downtown areas with little regard for the citizens who happened to be living in the right-of-way.  Yes, they do serve an important purpose, however, many of these freeways are in need of major repairs or replacements because of their age.

Being from the Syracuse area originally, I-81 is the shortest way to get through Syracuse.  The planning, in hindsight, was not well thought out in regards to through lanes and placement.  This is one of the narrowest, exit-induced sections of interstate highway in the country (outside of downtown Chicago).  There is a weakening viaduct in need of repair near Syracuse University and a winding, go around-the-buildings section north of I-690.  Yes, it has separated the university from downtown.  IMHO, I-81 should become a "boulevard".  I-81 would be re-routed on I-481 around the city and the current sections of I-81 would remain a freeway until Harrison St. (northbound) and Bear St. (southbound).  The south section could be renamed Jim Boeheim Blvd. (like Memphis's Sam Cooper Blvd.) and the north end could be I-981, as it is already to interstate standards.  It would be a bit funny to see signs that say:
                                 NORTH

                            Watertown

As for I-70 (soon to be I-44) in St. Louis, it should remain as is because the Gateway Arch should be isolated as it is a national landmark. 

         

                   

[vdeane]

I-481 is congested now, so I don't see it handling the I-81 through traffic without a major upgrade.  Plus can a surface street really handle the traffic of what is now two local roads and a freeway?

On the plus side, it would probably result in I-81 being converted to mileage based exit numbers since every exit number and milepost north of exit 16 would need to be redone anyways.

[Revive 755]

Tear down a key interstate just to remove a barrier between St. Louis and the Arch. Next we'll hear cries to tear down Lake Shore Drive because it disconnects the city from the lakefront 

Did they ever hear of "bridges" and "pedestrian overcrossings?"

IIRC, back in the early 2000's there was a study that looked at doing either a giant land bridge that crossed both Memorial Drive and the depressed lanes or a much longer cap than is currently being built.

[AsphaltPlanet]

I don't really see how I-81 could be demolished without a parallel alignment built somewhere else through town.  481 seems like a long around for it to become the through route.  In retrospect however, it is a shame that I-81 was built exactly where it was through Syracuse.

[bugo]

B) there's nothing stopping people on this side of the pond from grocery shopping more than once a week.  Even when I was in non-bikeable land and driving everywhere, I'd typically hit the grocery store (or Commissary as the case may be) every 4-5 days.

Sure there is.  Not everybody has time to go shopping 3 times a week.  Personally, I hate shopping and try to avoid going to the grocery store more than once a week or so.  It's a major nuisance.

[bugo]

Third, car culture has been so heavily built/wrapped around the US for the past 60 years that Americans (including, I daresay, several members of this forum) find it impossible to think in terms of anything else.

For good reason.  How are you going to get around in a sprawled out city like, say, Tulsa or Kansas City, without a car?

Though we admittedly have limited examples of freeway teardowns or long-term freeway closures, a percentage of that traffic really does "magically vanish".

Where does it go?  Do folks just quit driving because a freeway was removed?  Do long distance travelers reroute their trips hundreds of miles out of the way to avoid a 2 mile stretch of non-freeway?

[froggie]

I-481 is congested now,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!

Sorry...that was a good laugh.  But in all seriousness, I-481 is not that congested and could easily absorb what little through traffic there is on I-81.  At the absolute worst, all that's really needed on I-481 is a couple of auxiliary lanes here and there between ramps.

For good reason.  How are you going to get around in a sprawled out city like, say, Tulsa or Kansas City, without a car?

Which is the result of the last 60 years of car-focused culture.  Tulsa and Kansas City were not always as sprawled out as they are today.

Where does it go?  Do folks just quit driving because a freeway was removed?  Do long distance travelers reroute their trips hundreds of miles out of the way to avoid a 2 mile stretch of non-freeway?

Some traffic moves to other routes, some traffic sticks with the original route (even if not a freeway).  And yes, some of it just simply disappears.  Contrary to popular belief, a very large percentage (possibly a majority) of trips are discretionary trips.  Only about 20% of all trips are work or work-related.

And in urban areas, "long distance travelers" are really a small percentage of overall traffic.  Going back to the I-81 Syracuse example, NYSDOT's study determined that there's only about 7,200 trips a day that are "long distance travelers" going through Syracuse on I-81.  All those tens-of-thousands of other trips have either an origin or destination (or both) within the Syracuse area.

[vdeane]

The ends of I-481 may not be that congested, but it sure feels congested between NY 5/92 and I-90.  It's very rare that I can even go the speed limit (65) on that stretch.

[Laura]

Yep. Hypothetically, the average person can only sprawl so far from their job before they give up and move closer, whether by miles or minutes. The exception to this would be large cities like NYC, LA, SF, DC, or any other place that lacks affordable housing (up to the middle class's standards).

Now would be as good a time as any culturally to take out sections of freeway, as many in my generation (children of the boomers) are renting and not tied into previous housing investments in the far reaches of suburbia.

[english si]

Yep. Hypothetically, the average person can only sprawl so far from their job before they give up and move closer, whether by miles or minutes. The exception to this would be large cities like NYC, LA, SF, DC, or any other place that lacks affordable housing (up to the middle class's standards).

On another forum, someone worked out a comparison, based purely on money, between commuting to Central London from Zone 6 (edge of the urban area, 15-20 miles away) and Lincoln (about 150 miles away).

House prices in Lincoln were 80 season ticket (on the railway, because if you are doing this kind of calculation, you would be sane enough not to drive into Central London!) differentials cheaper than house prices in Zone 6. Lincoln is a nice place to live too, and rather booming at the moment - most places that distance from London will be cheaper.

Of course, the sub-1h commute times vs the just over 2h journey from Lincoln might sway things towards somewhere closer, but more costly.

[Revive 755]

Now would be as good a time as any culturally to take out sections of freeway, as many in my generation (children of the boomers) are renting and not tied into previous housing investments in the far reaches of suburbia.

They might be renting now, but are they still going to be renting in five years after the rent goes up a few times?  And should the next generation change their minds, why should this generation screw them out of the choice of a suburban lifestyle?  With most of the tear down proposals, I don't see alternative mass transit options being adequately considered, nor consideration of keeping the former land open for future transportation developments.

[NE2]

You get screwed into a suburban "lifestyle". Unless you tag bees for fun.

[Brandon]

You get screwed into a suburban "lifestyle". Unless you tag bees for fun.

Do you?  I sure the millions who bought in the Levitowns did not feel "screwed" when they bought.  Hell, it must have felt somewhat liberating to be out of the city, the congestion, the dirt, etc.

You assume much, Dan.

Now would be as good a time as any culturally to take out sections of freeway, as many in my generation (children of the boomers) are renting and not tied into previous housing investments in the far reaches of suburbia.

They might be renting now, but are they still going to be renting in five years after the rent goes up a few times?

And will they want to rent once they mature and marry, and have kids?  I have sincere doubts they will want to remain where they are.  A lot of folks move due to the school district they are in, and how good it is.  Let's be quite frank, the Chicago Public Schools is not renown for its educational excellence.

[Duke87]

Problems I have with the idea of rerouting I-81 along I-481:

1) It creates a situation where there is no redundancy in the freeway network south of I-690, and makes it so traffic coming east on I-690 has to either take a circuitous route or use surface streets to head south on I-81
2) The northern 481/81 junction is a cloverleaf which has 81 south to 481 south use a tight loop ramp. This interchange would need to be rebuilt to make that the through route for I-81.
3) As bypass routes go, I-481 is rather boxy, which adds unnecessary length if it's used as such. If you want to make it the through route, it should be rerouted so that it heads straight into I-81 to the south, rather than taking two 90 degree turns.

And that's all assuming that tearing down the freeway is a desirable thing to do... a claim which I find to be dubious. Somehow, I just can't accept the idea that destroying infrastructure without replacing it with something equal or better is a productive thing to do. Not unless the road has capacity far exceeding its current and projected future traffic volumes and thus isn't worth rebuilding on the same scale. There are certainly cases of this, but I-81 in Syracuse is not one of them. The desire to tear it down is based on purely aesthetic concerns about the neighborhood, not objective assessment of infrastructure needs - THAT is wrong.


As for the debate about suburbs, all I will say about that is that... suburbs aren't going away. Yes, our generation wants to live in cities more than our parents did, but at the same time, our generation is not getting married and having kids as young as our parents did. We're living it up in the city in our 20s rather than settling down and starting a family in our 20s. But when we do settle down and start a family (most likely in our 30s), something interesting happens: we leave the city and move back to, where else, the suburbs. The city is great for young single adults, but it is more a more challenging (and more expensive) place to raise children.

[vdeane]

I've also been wondering when it became fashionable to NOT serve discretionary trips.

[NE2]

I've also been wondering when it became fashionable to NOT serve discretionary trips.

When the global warming hoax was unleashed onto the world.

[vdeane]

Personally I'd address that with a push for renewable energy (and cold fusion if/when we figure that out) and electric cars with better electric storage than we have today.

[jbnv]

... electric cars with better electric storage than we have today.

Praytell, where does the electricity come from? 

[hotdogPi]

... electric cars with better electric storage than we have today.

Praytell, where does the electricity come from? 

If people can figure out a way to do it in the near future, lightning.

[Laura]

The desire to tear it down is based on purely aesthetic concerns about the neighborhood, not objective assessment of infrastructure needs - THAT is wrong.

As for the debate about suburbs, all I will say about that is that... suburbs aren't going away. Yes, our generation wants to live in cities more than our parents did, but at the same time, our generation is not getting married and having kids as young as our parents did. We're living it up in the city in our 20s rather than settling down and starting a family in our 20s. But when we do settle down and start a family (most likely in our 30s), something interesting happens: we leave the city and move back to, where else, the suburbs. The city is great for young single adults, but it is more a more challenging (and more expensive) place to raise children.

I'd like to think it's less about neighborhood aesthetics and more about eliminating the wall between neighborhoods. While not on the list, there are people who want I-83 truncated at Guilford Ave. in Baltimore because the viaduct has killed any redevelopment efforts east of it (and downtown). This is a situation where tearing down the freeway *might* be beneficial: that section could be converted to a boulevard (it's pretty much at a standstill during rush hour anyway), which would take down a barried to redeveloping Oldtown (of course, there are several other barriers unrelated to roads regarding the blight in this area, hence the might).

I'm not for this trendy mass tearing down of freeways by any means. I was only referencing the fact that this window of time would be the best one to push these kinds of ideas through. Millennials are renting longer and delaying families, but that won't last forever. These groups will not be nearly as successful ten years from now, unless the roads deteriorate and it's more cost-effective to tear them down.

All of that said, I really do think that more millennials will stay in cities than the past few generations. They won't be a majority, but more of them will stay than before. I know plenty of people in their late 20's and early 30's who are child-free by choice that grew up in the 'burbs and live in Baltimore now (they are paying mortgages on rowhomes), and the ones who choose to have a kid or two are sending them to charter schools.

[vdeane]

... electric cars with better electric storage than we have today.

Praytell, where does the electricity come from? 

If you're referring to how it gets to the car, the same as now with the Tesla; it would just be faster and last longer due to enhancing batteries with graphene or replacing them with capacitors.  If you're referring to how electricity would be generated in the first place, renewables (cheaper if we research long distance electric transmission, allowing plants to be built at the optimum place rather than near where the electricity will be used), and fusion if we figure it out.  I personally like SimCity 3000's idea of collecting solar energy in space and beaming it down as microwaves.

[PColumbus73]

For I-70 (now I-44) in St. Louis, the city can just cap the freeway similar to how Columbus capped I-670.

I would support the removal/downgrade of the Buffalo Skyway. It doesn't look like it carries much traffic and using US 62 instead of NY 5 only adds a few minutes.