Cancelled freeways

[RobbieL2415]

Hartford:
http://kurumi.com/roads/ct/pics/art-hfd-fwy-60s.png

[mgk920]

A very big factor is also that cars themselves are not anywhere near as fun nor easy to work on, modify and 'tinker with' as they were a few decades ago.

Mike

[silverback1065]

Indy has only 1 real cancellation and a lot of proposed ones that never got off the map. I-69 was supposed to end downtown, they cancelled it after the feds refused to pay for it, coupled with freeway opposition, and the planners realizing it wasn't really needed.

[bugo]

Kansas City's cancelled freeway is even more notorious, US 71 through the south side. IMO, KC's system is overbuilt with the north side of the downtown loop being redundant except when an accident closes I-670.

How is the north part of the downtown loop "redundant" when it carries mainline I-35?

[HighwayStar]

That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.

Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.

Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.

Good for you. I want the ease and comfort of my car.

Now apply that same(ish?) reasoning to the people who want to walk and take public transit around town.

Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday. And on any large scale those things trade off with each other, so it pays to build the highway because it generates far more utility than transit.

Maybe in Lilliput, but there are a significant number of teens who don't want to drive because the hassle and expense of owning a car isn't worth it to them. "In 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds had driver's licenses. In 2020, those numbers had fallen to 25 percent and 45 percent." Teens and young adults today often use ride-hailing apps or will use transit if available. I honestly probably wouldn't bother getting my license today if I were young; as it was I didn't own a car until I was 29 and only got my license at 17 because my parents demanded it (I was the oldest and they wanted help with chauffeuring my younger brothers.). I got along fine without a car the four years I lived in Madison WI as my bicycle and the frequent bus service were more than adequate; I could walk a couple blocks to a grocery, a laundromat, and even a liquor store on the isthmus. I even lived a couple years in Green Bay without a car though that was tougher. And I certainly didn't need a car in the Navy. So I can easily see with better transportation options today in many cities like Portland, Washington, and Chicago why teens may not want to bother with a car ever. I know at least one of my nieces doesn't have her license and has no desire for one; it helps that she lives two blocks from a light rail station between downtown and the MSP airport.

Many younger people are also looking at it from a more environmental perspective. Climate change is a real fear for many of them whether you believe it's happening or not. Not adding to their carbon footprint is personal. Maybe it will change if EVs become more affordable but EVs still have a significant carbon footprint from the manufacturing process to the charging (if not from renewable sources) to the extraction of rare earths needed for batteries. That's not to mention the human exploitation involved in that extraction. Regardless of the reasoning, younger people are driving less and wanting more options that often don't include cars at all. Lilliputians may think differently but many young people in cities and the nearer suburbs are wanting to drive less - even if they can afford it.

Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.

[silverback1065]

Kansas City's cancelled freeway is even more notorious, US 71 through the south side. IMO, KC's system is overbuilt with the north side of the downtown loop being redundant except when an accident closes I-670.

How is the north part of the downtown loop "redundant" when it carries mainline I-35?

because you can easily reroute the freeways to not need the north side at all. it leads into that death curve in kansas too, it should all be removed and 670 should become 70.

[SEWIGuy]

That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.

Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.

Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.

Good for you. I want the ease and comfort of my car.

Now apply that same(ish?) reasoning to the people who want to walk and take public transit around town.

Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday. And on any large scale those things trade off with each other, so it pays to build the highway because it generates far more utility than transit.

Maybe in Lilliput, but there are a significant number of teens who don't want to drive because the hassle and expense of owning a car isn't worth it to them. "In 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds had driver's licenses. In 2020, those numbers had fallen to 25 percent and 45 percent." Teens and young adults today often use ride-hailing apps or will use transit if available. I honestly probably wouldn't bother getting my license today if I were young; as it was I didn't own a car until I was 29 and only got my license at 17 because my parents demanded it (I was the oldest and they wanted help with chauffeuring my younger brothers.). I got along fine without a car the four years I lived in Madison WI as my bicycle and the frequent bus service were more than adequate; I could walk a couple blocks to a grocery, a laundromat, and even a liquor store on the isthmus. I even lived a couple years in Green Bay without a car though that was tougher. And I certainly didn't need a car in the Navy. So I can easily see with better transportation options today in many cities like Portland, Washington, and Chicago why teens may not want to bother with a car ever. I know at least one of my nieces doesn't have her license and has no desire for one; it helps that she lives two blocks from a light rail station between downtown and the MSP airport.

Many younger people are also looking at it from a more environmental perspective. Climate change is a real fear for many of them whether you believe it's happening or not. Not adding to their carbon footprint is personal. Maybe it will change if EVs become more affordable but EVs still have a significant carbon footprint from the manufacturing process to the charging (if not from renewable sources) to the extraction of rare earths needed for batteries. That's not to mention the human exploitation involved in that extraction. Regardless of the reasoning, younger people are driving less and wanting more options that often don't include cars at all. Lilliputians may think differently but many young people in cities and the nearer suburbs are wanting to drive less - even if they can afford it.

Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.

It has nothing to do with lack of maturity. It has to do with lack of need. Having a 16 year old with a license is expensive for parents who pay for the insurance. It's also not much of a need if you can get around in other ways, especially if you are a two car family and parents who use the cars during the day.

And the lack of kids working has to do more with their being busy doing other things and/or their parents just giving them the money to do things with their friends.

Anytime you say "well you know kids these days," its probably inaccurate. That phrase has been said for generations, but as The Who told us "the kids are alright."

[Rothman]

That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.

Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.

Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.

Good for you. I want the ease and comfort of my car.

Now apply that same(ish?) reasoning to the people who want to walk and take public transit around town.

Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday. And on any large scale those things trade off with each other, so it pays to build the highway because it generates far more utility than transit.

Maybe in Lilliput, but there are a significant number of teens who don't want to drive because the hassle and expense of owning a car isn't worth it to them. "In 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds had driver's licenses. In 2020, those numbers had fallen to 25 percent and 45 percent." Teens and young adults today often use ride-hailing apps or will use transit if available. I honestly probably wouldn't bother getting my license today if I were young; as it was I didn't own a car until I was 29 and only got my license at 17 because my parents demanded it (I was the oldest and they wanted help with chauffeuring my younger brothers.). I got along fine without a car the four years I lived in Madison WI as my bicycle and the frequent bus service were more than adequate; I could walk a couple blocks to a grocery, a laundromat, and even a liquor store on the isthmus. I even lived a couple years in Green Bay without a car though that was tougher. And I certainly didn't need a car in the Navy. So I can easily see with better transportation options today in many cities like Portland, Washington, and Chicago why teens may not want to bother with a car ever. I know at least one of my nieces doesn't have her license and has no desire for one; it helps that she lives two blocks from a light rail station between downtown and the MSP airport.

Many younger people are also looking at it from a more environmental perspective. Climate change is a real fear for many of them whether you believe it's happening or not. Not adding to their carbon footprint is personal. Maybe it will change if EVs become more affordable but EVs still have a significant carbon footprint from the manufacturing process to the charging (if not from renewable sources) to the extraction of rare earths needed for batteries. That's not to mention the human exploitation involved in that extraction. Regardless of the reasoning, younger people are driving less and wanting more options that often don't include cars at all. Lilliputians may think differently but many young people in cities and the nearer suburbs are wanting to drive less - even if they can afford it.

Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.

It has nothing to do with lack of maturity. It has to do with lack of need. Having a 16 year old with a license is expensive for parents who pay for the insurance. It's also not much of a need if you can get around in other ways, especially if you are a two car family and parents who use the cars during the day.

And the lack of kids working has to do more with their being busy doing other things and/or their parents just giving them the money to do things with their friends.

Anytime you say "well you know kids these days," its probably inaccurate. That phrase has been said for generations, but as The Who told us "the kids are alright."

Heh.  My daughter doesn't have a license, graduated from an elite college and now is looking like she'll be working for Harvard or Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston doing genetics research or some sort of pathology.  I'd call her successful.

My son has a license and car (yep, we help), is currently working as a lineman at an airport, wrapping up his commercial certificate for flying and figuring out his return to college in the fall.  I'd call him successful.

Given my experience with them and their friends, the connection between success and being licensed to drive has definitely loosened over the past 10 years or more.

[Big John]

And how do you define success?  It doesn't always mean having money.

[kphoger]

It has nothing to do with lack of maturity. It has to do with lack of need. Having a 16 year old with a license is expensive for parents who pay for the insurance. It's also not much of a need if you can get around in other ways, especially if you are a two car family and parents who use the cars during the day.

Oh, man.  Our 15-year-old son keeps asking us when we're going to teach him to drive.  So we finally looked up how much we should expect our insurance to go up by adding him to our policy.  (We can't get a quote without actually putting him on the policy, but how can we know if we can afford it without an ahead-of-time quote?)  Anyway, according to the almighty Google, just adding him will cost more than the two of us put together.  Good grief...

And I'd actually say it's more of a need if you are a two-car family.  Our family only has one car, so I shouldn't be very likely to let my kid drive our only vehicle over to his friend's house on a Saturday afternoon.  That would leave us with no car.

[Max Rockatansky]

And how do you define success?  It doesn't always mean having money.

But to an extent it is almost always a contributing factor.

[vdeane]

I think a lot of things contribute to young people not driving these days.  It takes longer to get an unrestricted license that can be used to have passengers your own age.  Life is much more online.  People live in walkable areas in college and decide they like it.  Cars are more complicated, insurance is expensive, more extracurriculars in school, etc.  The days of getting an after-school job to buy and insure a beater that you fix yourself and tinker with and use to ferry all your friends while you hang out are long, long gone.  And they aren't coming back.

And yeah, young people are more concerned with the environment, climate change, etc. because THEY'RE THE ONES WHO HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT.  Older generations will be long dead before the worst consequences are here, so not surprised they don't care as much.

[silverback1065]

Can we get back to cancelled freeways and not talk about irrelevant things please? 

[Bruce]

Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.

OK Boomer.

Some of the most successful people I know don't drive because they are able to comfortably afford a car-free lifestyle in the city. Based on how terrible drivers are, the lack of maturity is not holding anyone back; it's mostly financial. When rent is $1500+/month, how much can someone earning $20/hour (if they're lucky) siphon off to put into a car? You do the math.

I am extremely fortunate to be in a situation where I can drive and not break the bank (so far...my car is in need of replacement).

[silverback1065]

Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.

OK Boomer.

Some of the most successful people I know don't drive because they are able to comfortably afford a car-free lifestyle in the city. Based on how terrible drivers are, the lack of maturity is not holding anyone back; it's mostly financial. When rent is $1500+/month, how much can someone earning $20/hour (if they're lucky) siphon off to put into a car? You do the math.

I am extremely fortunate to be in a situation where I can drive and not break the bank (so far...my car is in need of replacement).

I actually agree with him, younger generations do have a maturity problem, many of our life milestones are delayed due to a myriad of problems. Attacking him for being a boomer is not relevant to the discussion, we could easily attack you for being a millenial and that would be equally irrelevant.

[bugo]

The Riverside Freeway is the only proposed freeway in Tulsa that has been cancelled. The Osage Expressway north of 36th Street N was once proposed, but I don't think it has been officially canceled.

[silverback1065]

The Riverside Expressway is the only proposed freeway in Tulsa that has been cancelled. The Osage Expressway north of 36th Street N was once proposed, but I don't think it has been officially canceled.

what was the course of the riverside expressway?

[HighwayStar]

Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.

OK Boomer.

Some of the most successful people I know don't drive because they are able to comfortably afford a car-free lifestyle in the city. Based on how terrible drivers are, the lack of maturity is not holding anyone back; it's mostly financial. When rent is $1500+/month, how much can someone earning $20/hour (if they're lucky) siphon off to put into a car? You do the math.

I am extremely fortunate to be in a situation where I can drive and not break the bank (so far...my car is in need of replacement).

Being able to comfortably afford a car free lifestyle in the city costs less than comfortably affording a car lifestyle in the city.

I find it amusing calling me a "boomer" 

[HighwayStar]

Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.

OK Boomer.

Some of the most successful people I know don't drive because they are able to comfortably afford a car-free lifestyle in the city. Based on how terrible drivers are, the lack of maturity is not holding anyone back; it's mostly financial. When rent is $1500+/month, how much can someone earning $20/hour (if they're lucky) siphon off to put into a car? You do the math.

I am extremely fortunate to be in a situation where I can drive and not break the bank (so far...my car is in need of replacement).

I actually agree with him, younger generations do have a maturity problem, many of our life milestones are delayed due to a myriad of problems. Attacking him for being a boomer is not relevant to the discussion, we could easily attack you for being a millenial and that would be equally irrelevant.

Yep, classic form of Ad hominem.

Lack of development with youth these days is of course ultimately a problem of their forefathers, so I am more than willing to blame X gen and the Boomers for that.

[bugo]

The Riverside Freeway is the only proposed freeway in Tulsa that has been cancelled. The Osage Expressway north of 36th Street N was once proposed, but I don't think it has been officially canceled.

what was the course of the riverside expressway?

It would have begun at the southeastern corner of the Inner Dispersal Loop and followed the Midland Valley Railroad corridor down to near 31st Street, where it would follow the current Riverside Drive to at least as far south as I-44.

[SEWIGuy]

Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.

OK Boomer.

Some of the most successful people I know don't drive because they are able to comfortably afford a car-free lifestyle in the city. Based on how terrible drivers are, the lack of maturity is not holding anyone back; it's mostly financial. When rent is $1500+/month, how much can someone earning $20/hour (if they're lucky) siphon off to put into a car? You do the math.

I am extremely fortunate to be in a situation where I can drive and not break the bank (so far...my car is in need of replacement).

I actually agree with him, younger generations do have a maturity problem, many of our life milestones are delayed due to a myriad of problems. Attacking him for being a boomer is not relevant to the discussion, we could easily attack you for being a millenial and that would be equally irrelevant.

Yep, classic form of Ad hominem.

Lack of development with youth these days is of course ultimately a problem of their forefathers, so I am more than willing to blame X gen and the Boomers for that.

But you're wrong. It's not a maturity problem. That's nonsense.

[Dirt Roads]

Wheeling:  In the late 1950s, the WV-2 Bypass was planned to be a freeway routed along the east side of Wheeling Hill.  Much of this route was finally constructed as the US-250 Freeway, which was completed in 1981 from McMechen to I-70 near the east portal of the Wheeling Tunnel.  However, the portion of the WV-2 Bypass north of I-70 was never fully constructed and eventually cancelled.  A portion of this route was constructed as a short piece of Super Two known as McColloch Street (unsigned along the route and posted only on the BGS).  A stub exit from I-70 westbound for the WV-2 Bypass northbound was constructed that has never been used. 

As best as I can tell, this is the only true Cancelled Freeway in West Virginia.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

Wheeling:  In the late 1950s, the WV-2 Bypass was planned to be a freeway routed along the east side of Wheeling Hill.  Much of this route was finally constructed as the US-250 Freeway, which was completed in 1981 from McMechen to I-70 near the east portal of the Wheeling Tunnel.  However, the portion of the WV-2 Bypass north of I-70 was never fully constructed and eventually cancelled.  A portion of this route was constructed as a short piece of Super Two known as McColloch Street (unsigned along the route and posted only on the BGS).  A stub exit from I-70 westbound for the WV-2 Bypass northbound was constructed that has never been used. 

As best as I can tell, this is the only true Cancelled Freeway in West Virginia.

Cartographic evidence of the proposed Wheeling freeways
http://sanwhmap.jpg

[SilverMustang2011]

Tampa and St Petersburg have a few cancelled freeways, most of them never made it off the drawing board but you can find remnants of them in a few places:

- Exit 20 on I-275 was supposed to connect to a freeway going Northwest toward Clearwater but instead got truncated to 31st St S: https://goo.gl/maps/wu3PphBfC8CiCQhb8

- That same abandoned freeway is the reason there's a directional - T interchange between US 41 Alt and Tom Stuart Causeway near Madeira Beach: https://goo.gl/maps/KsJqcpbLYFXuDhcC8

- Gandy and Park Boulevard were planned to be upgraded to a freeway in St Pete but that was only partially built, leaving a partially-limited access interchange with I-275, a diamond interchange with US 19 where Gandy is the free movement (Unlike subsequent interchanges on US 19), and a wide median east of 275 that actually got built into a freeway in the mid-2010s: https://goo.gl/maps/DXUatP3qAwK63kPV7

- Dale Mabry Highway in Tampa has two interchanges at Hillsborough and Gunn Highway/Busch that were originally intended to be part of a larger system. I'm inclined to believe Dale Mabry Hillsborough would have been upgraded to an interchange anyway due to the traffic volume of the two roads, and there's an overpass for railroad tracks just south of Busch that I believe was built in the 50s/60s so it wouldn't have been at-grade as is: https://goo.gl/maps/7A5Dag8oESngNXqx9

[froggie]

Wheeling:  In the late 1950s, the WV-2 Bypass was planned to be a freeway routed along the east side of Wheeling Hill.  Much of this route was finally constructed as the US-250 Freeway, which was completed in 1981 from McMechen to I-70 near the east portal of the Wheeling Tunnel.  However, the portion of the WV-2 Bypass north of I-70 was never fully constructed and eventually cancelled.  A portion of this route was constructed as a short piece of Super Two known as McColloch Street (unsigned along the route and posted only on the BGS).  A stub exit from I-70 westbound for the WV-2 Bypass northbound was constructed that has never been used. 

As best as I can tell, this is the only true Cancelled Freeway in West Virginia.

Cartographic evidence of the proposed Wheeling freeways
http://sanwhmap.jpg

That URL seems to be missing a few things.