Interstate 11

[mgk920]

Both metros were basically tiny 'Nowherevilles' before air conditioning.

Mike

[kernals12]

Okay, if not a Phoenix-to-Las Vegas highway, why not at least a Phoenix-to-Kingman highway? Kingman is also on Route 66 and such a route is more direct for traffic heading towards California.

My guess would be the relative lack of activity in that direction, as opposed to all of the copper mines and recreational areas due North of Phoenix.

[Sub-Urbanite]

At the time the Interstate System was planned, Las Vegas didn't even merit being a control city (I-15 south out of Salt Lake City was signed for Los Angeles), much less a reason to build an entire Interstate route to an adjoining state's capital.

One of my great quibbles with the Eisenhower system is how there hasn't been a reckoning with the population growth of the West. I mean, great, America dumped investment into the system, but if the system were built today we'd see a much more robust network – not overwhelming, but at least sufficient – out here.

Yet here we are, piecemealing an Interstate on the only road between a city of 4.5 million people and a city of 2 million people.

(Not to let this topic get off topic...)

[Scott5114]

If the system were built today, nothing would get built at all, because that would cost money and someone would be offended by that.

[Max Rockatansky]

Okay, if not a Phoenix-to-Las Vegas highway, why not at least a Phoenix-to-Kingman highway? Kingman is also on Route 66 and such a route is more direct for traffic heading towards California.

My guess would be the relative lack of activity in that direction, as opposed to all of the copper mines and recreational areas due North of Phoenix.

Even getting US 93 past Kingman was surprisingly contentious even into the 1960s:

https://www.gribblenation.org/2023/07/the-us-routes-of-wickenburg-arizona.html?m=1

[roadman65]

If the system were built today, nothing would get built at all, because that would cost money and someone would be offended by that.

Plus environmental issues today. 

[The Ghostbuster]

Construction of Interstate 11 between Las Vegas and Phoenix is better late than never. We all know that Interstate 11 will not enter the city of Phoenix itself, instead bypassing the city. I don't think Interstate 11 should go all the way to Nogales, having it stop at Interstate 10 would probably be sufficient. If the Casa Grande-to-Tuscon segment is ever constructed, maybe it should be an extension of Interstate 8.

[Bobby5280]

At least chances are very good for I-11 to be completed from the Hoover Dam to I-40 in Kingman. Going Southeast past that is questionable.

The whole ploy of diverting the proposed I-11 route pretty much straight South from Wickenburg down to some desolate spot on I-10 is about fueling real estate growth. Who cares if the land is 20 or so miles West of the 303 loop?

I believe a market catastrophe is likely to happen in America's housing industry in the 2030's and 2040's. Is any of I-11 getting built South of Wickenburg by then? These planned communities they have in mind out past the White Tank Mountains could turn into quite a boondoggle for both the developers and buyers. There wouldn't be any point of building I-11 way the hell out there by the time they get around to doing it.

[Mapmikey]

Arizona's designation of interstate corridors was different than how they ended up.  Here is a 1951 map - https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015020911791&seq=143&q1=interstate

In 1957 the map looks much more like the built system - https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015020911858&seq=166


A good indication of why there was no Phoenix to Kingman interstate routing can be found in the 1st 1957 interstate document for Arizona in the AASHO database.  There is a clearly presented traffic count map on page 3.

[pderocco]

If the system were built today, nothing would get built at all, because that would cost money and someone would be offended by that.

And it would endanger the Neufstaedler sand weebil.

[kphoger]

If the system were built today, nothing would get built at all, because that would cost money and someone would be offended by that.

Or at least Interstates 15 and 29 probably wouldn't reach the Canadian border.

[mgk920]

If the system were built today, nothing would get built at all, because that would cost money and someone would be offended by that.

Or at least Interstates 15 and 29 probably wouldn't reach the Canadian border.

They both point towards fairly large population and economic centers in Canada and likely had fairly strong traffic numbers at the border in the 1950s.  The north end of I-95 in Maine is the one that I most question.

Mike

[vdeane]

If the system were built today, nothing would get built at all, because that would cost money and someone would be offended by that.

Or at least Interstates 15 and 29 probably wouldn't reach the Canadian border.

They both point towards fairly large population and economic centers in Canada and likely had fairly strong traffic numbers at the border in the 1950s.  The north end of I-95 in Maine is the one that I most question.

Mike

Yeah, I don't know why they picked that.  I think it was some kind of compromise between sending it all the way up to Van Buren or Madawaska vs. not getting into northern Maine at all, with the border crossing consideration secondary at best.  If it were being built today, it would make more sense to send I-95 east from Bangor to Calais to tie into the NB 1 freeway.

[Bobby5280]

They both point towards fairly large population and economic centers in Canada and likely had fairly strong traffic numbers at the border in the 1950s.  The north end of I-95 in Maine is the one that I most question.

The location of the North end of I-95 makes sense when you look at how the Trans Canada Highway cuts across New Brunswick and into Nova Scotia. It remains as a limited access freeway well into Nova Scotia. Plus there's the 102 spur freeway going down to Halifax.

[kphoger]

The location of the North end of I-95 makes sense when you look at how the Trans Canada Highway cuts across New Brunswick and into Nova Scotia. It remains as a limited access freeway well into Nova Scotia. Plus there's the 102 spur freeway going down to Halifax.

I do agree that it would have made more sense to connect I-95 to the trunk line of the TCH.  And I do believe that was the timeline.  When the decision was made to route the Interstate to Houlton instead of Fort Kent, the TCH was already slated to pass through Woodstock (1965).  But I'm having trouble figuring out exactly when that decision was made.  Anyone?

[Bobby5280]

While US-1 does end in Fort Kent, was I-95 ever actually proposed to end there as well? There are no significant destinations on the other side of the border with Canada where the highway would point.

With I-95 crossing the US/CN border at Houlton it connects into the TCH as it makes its turn due West past Woodstock. The TCH is the main East-West route across New Brunswick.

The only other places that could have been logical points on the border for I-95 are Calais or Sandy Bay. Calais is South of Houlton, but the route 1 super highway in New Brunswick ends at a border crossing there. US-201 is the main route in Maine going North to Quebec City. But routing I-95 along US-201 would have diverted the Interstate at Fairfield well before reaching Bangor. US-201 is not a high traffic route and the Canadian route on the other side of the border is a 2-lane road.

[vdeane]

They both point towards fairly large population and economic centers in Canada and likely had fairly strong traffic numbers at the border in the 1950s.  The north end of I-95 in Maine is the one that I most question.

The location of the North end of I-95 makes sense when you look at how the Trans Canada Highway cuts across New Brunswick and into Nova Scotia. It remains as a limited access freeway well into Nova Scotia. Plus there's the 102 spur freeway going down to Halifax.

The thing is, that's not the most direct route to very many places.  Doing directions on Google Maps from just south of Bangor to close to Moncton, it's actually seven minutes shorter to take I-395/ME 9/NB 1 than it is to take I-95/NB 2.  That difference will probably get larger once the I-395/ME 9 connector is finished.  If there were a freeway on the ME 9 alignment, it would be even larger still.  Traffic going to places like Nova Scotia isn't taking I-95 to Houlton.

[sprjus4]

The thing is, that's not the most direct route to very many places.  Doing directions on Google Maps from just south of Bangor to close to Moncton, it's actually seven minutes shorter to take I-395/ME 9/NB 1 than it is to take I-95/NB 2.  That difference will probably get larger once the I-395/ME 9 connector is finished.  If there were a freeway on the ME 9 alignment, it would be even larger still.  Traffic going to places like Nova Scotia isn't taking I-95 to Houlton.

In theory, but at least me, I'd personally drive 5-8 minutes more to avoid nearly 100 miles of two-lane highway. That's almost 2 hours on 55 mph road with limited passing opportunities at time, vs. the 75 mph I-95 with little traffic.

I do agree though for the desire of a limited access highway along ME-9, but it likely isn't happening anytime soon.

[vdeane]

The thing is, that's not the most direct route to very many places.  Doing directions on Google Maps from just south of Bangor to close to Moncton, it's actually seven minutes shorter to take I-395/ME 9/NB 1 than it is to take I-95/NB 2.  That difference will probably get larger once the I-395/ME 9 connector is finished.  If there were a freeway on the ME 9 alignment, it would be even larger still.  Traffic going to places like Nova Scotia isn't taking I-95 to Houlton.

In theory, but at least me, I'd personally drive 5-8 minutes more to avoid nearly 100 miles of two-lane highway. That's almost 2 hours on 55 mph road with limited passing opportunities at time, vs. the 75 mph I-95 with little traffic.

I do agree though for the desire of a limited access highway along ME-9, but it likely isn't happening anytime soon.

I agree that it's unlikely that such a freeway will be built anytime soon ever, but even back at initial construction it would have made more sense.  NB 2 went down to Saint John at the time, and even the TCH still dipped down to Sussex; the freeway connection that exists now just wasn't there.  Taking I-95 to Houlton was always a longer diversion, that's not exactly a recent development.  In fact, US 1 used to end (prior to being extended to Fort Kent) at the crossing which used to be NB 1 in Calais, probably for that exact reason.

US 1 going to Fort Kent is another oddball.  There's nothing on the Canadian side, and it has to turn due west from Madawaska (which is opposite Edmundston) to get there.

[Plutonic Panda]

Interesting. Maybe I'm just blessed that most of my traveling has interstate corridors that make it quicker. But sometimes I'll go out of my way to drive on a two-lane road. As much as I love interstates, they can get incredibly boring and the perception to me at least is that they feel as if they take longer even if they don't in reality.

[pderocco]

Gee, you can't get much further away from I-11 than this...

[Plutonic Panda]

Gee, you can't get much further away from I-11 than this...

Wrong. I searched it on GPT4 and it said the furthest possible place(the opposite side on the globe) is the Indian Ocean near Madagascar and Mozambique. If someone started talking about that then it would be about as far as you could get from the I-11 corridor assuming we're only talking about earths surface.

[pderocco]

You can't get much further away on the Interstate Highway System from I-11.

[Plutonic Panda]

You can't get much further away on the Interstate Highway System from I-11.

I know I get what you meant.

[kphoger]

While US-1 does end in Fort Kent, was I-95 ever actually proposed to end there as well?

AIUI, the pre-Interstate turnpike was originally proposed to end at Fort Kent.  But the timing after that point is fuzzy to me.