Mackinac Bridge congestion

[Plutonic Panda]

"I cross the bridge a few times a year and oppose a measure that has reduced congestion everywhere else it has been implemented" is a weird flex.

When someone calls someone else out as a troll and then the alleged "victim" responds like this, maybe it's time to lock the thread.

Just to be clear, I'm not entirely convinced that this person is a troll or trolling. But it is very bizarre to me how much energy they are putting to die on this hill. It's just strange to me.

Which is why I thought they were trolling by saying that an entirely voluntary HOT lane system (MNPass) had more of a reason to integrate into E-ZPass than a mandatory toll bridge that is a similar distance away from the E-ZPass network. It's just bizarre and illogical reasoning to me.

And here we go again with the EZPASS crap.

Let me put this very clearly

Interoperable. Tolling. System. That. Works. With. Any. Other. Toll. Pass.

It. Doesn't. Have. To. Be. EZPASS.

I put periods at the end of each word so you could stop and think about what they mean and we can quit going in circles with this conversation. I'm very much in agreement. It's about time this thread should be locked.

[Molandfreak]

"I cross the bridge a few times a year and oppose a measure that has reduced congestion everywhere else it has been implemented" is a weird flex.

When someone calls someone else out as a troll and then the alleged "victim" responds like this, maybe it's time to lock the thread.

Just to be clear, I'm not entirely convinced that this person is a troll or trolling. But it is very bizarre to me how much energy they are putting to die on this hill. It's just strange to me.

Which is why I thought they were trolling by saying that an entirely voluntary HOT lane system (MNPass) had more of a reason to integrate into E-ZPass than a mandatory toll bridge that is a similar distance away from the E-ZPass network. It's just bizarre and illogical reasoning to me.

And here we go again with the EZPASS crap.

Let me put this very clearly

Interoperable. Tolling. System. That. Works. With. Any. Other. Toll. Pass.

It. Doesn't. Have. To. Be. EZPASS.

I put periods at the end of each word so you could stop and think about what they mean and we can quit going in circles with this conversation. I'm very much in agreement. It's about time this thread should be locked.

[Flint1979]

^^^^ that is a very reasonable and well put discussion point. Thank you for adding to that. That makes much more sense than what the other guys saying that he's some expert on this bridge, getting hung up on the EZPASS, And claiming that nothing needs to be done.

Now I've never even been in the state of Michigan, but this thread has got me so interested about the subject. I'm gonna contact the department of transportation up there and ask for their reasoning of not implementing all electronic tolling.

If you are talking about me I have never claimed to be an expert at anything.

[Flint1979]

"I cross the bridge a few times a year and oppose a measure that has reduced congestion everywhere else it has been implemented" is a weird flex.

When someone calls someone else out as a troll and then the alleged "victim" responds like this, maybe it's time to lock the thread.

I cross the bridge more than a few times a year more like about 60-70 times. I know the bridge pretty well. Why can't you people come to terms that the toll plaza isn't the reason for backups at the Mackinac Bridge?

Why can't you just come to terms with implementing all electronic tolling is just something that could help to some degree? On days when traffic isn't backed up, it would still allow for people to proceed without having to stop. Anyway, you look at it it's more efficient.

Not really and that is why I don't agree with it. It's not going to stop congestion on the bridge. It might be a bit more convenient but that's about it.

[Flint1979]

"I cross the bridge a few times a year and oppose a measure that has reduced congestion everywhere else it has been implemented" is a weird flex.

When someone calls someone else out as a troll and then the alleged "victim" responds like this, maybe it's time to lock the thread.

Just to be clear, I'm not entirely convinced that this person is a troll or trolling. But it is very bizarre to me how much energy they are putting to die on this hill. It's just strange to me.

Which is why I thought they were trolling by saying that an entirely voluntary HOT lane system (MNPass) had more of a reason to integrate into E-ZPass than a mandatory toll bridge that is a similar distance away from the E-ZPass network. It's just bizarre and illogical reasoning to me.

And here we go again with the EZPASS crap.

Let me put this very clearly

Interoperable. Tolling. System. That. Works. With. Any. Other. Toll. Pass.

It. Doesn't. Have. To. Be. EZPASS.

I put periods at the end of each word so you could stop and think about what they mean and we can quit going in circles with this conversation. I'm very much in agreement. It's about time this thread should be locked.

Lock this thread for what? Just because you don't agree?

[Flint1979]

It's Saturday afternoon not a holiday weekend but a Summer weekend nonetheless. 4:00 in the afternoon at the Mackinac Bridge.

[Plutonic Panda]

It's Saturday afternoon not a holiday weekend but a Summer weekend nonetheless. 4:00 in the afternoon at the Mackinac Bridge.

Great and imagine if there was all electronic tolling where people didn't have to stop at all. If you can do something to make it just that more efficient why not do it?

[Plutonic Panda]

"I cross the bridge a few times a year and oppose a measure that has reduced congestion everywhere else it has been implemented" is a weird flex.

When someone calls someone else out as a troll and then the alleged "victim" responds like this, maybe it's time to lock the thread.

Just to be clear, I'm not entirely convinced that this person is a troll or trolling. But it is very bizarre to me how much energy they are putting to die on this hill. It's just strange to me.

Which is why I thought they were trolling by saying that an entirely voluntary HOT lane system (MNPass) had more of a reason to integrate into E-ZPass than a mandatory toll bridge that is a similar distance away from the E-ZPass network. It's just bizarre and illogical reasoning to me.

And here we go again with the EZPASS crap.

Let me put this very clearly

Interoperable. Tolling. System. That. Works. With. Any. Other. Toll. Pass.

It. Doesn't. Have. To. Be. EZPASS.

I put periods at the end of each word so you could stop and think about what they mean and we can quit going in circles with this conversation. I'm very much in agreement. It's about time this thread should be locked.

I'm not yelling. I'm just trying to spell it out very clearly because it seems like a couple people here are so hung up on the EZPass thing.

[Plutonic Panda]

"I cross the bridge a few times a year and oppose a measure that has reduced congestion everywhere else it has been implemented" is a weird flex.

When someone calls someone else out as a troll and then the alleged "victim" responds like this, maybe it's time to lock the thread.

Just to be clear, I'm not entirely convinced that this person is a troll or trolling. But it is very bizarre to me how much energy they are putting to die on this hill. It's just strange to me.

Which is why I thought they were trolling by saying that an entirely voluntary HOT lane system (MNPass) had more of a reason to integrate into E-ZPass than a mandatory toll bridge that is a similar distance away from the E-ZPass network. It's just bizarre and illogical reasoning to me.

And here we go again with the EZPASS crap.

Let me put this very clearly

Interoperable. Tolling. System. That. Works. With. Any. Other. Toll. Pass.

It. Doesn't. Have. To. Be. EZPASS.

I put periods at the end of each word so you could stop and think about what they mean and we can quit going in circles with this conversation. I'm very much in agreement. It's about time this thread should be locked.

Lock this thread for what? Just because you don't agree?

Someone else brought up locking the thread and I'm just saying I would agree because this doesn't seem like a very productive conversation. But that's none of my business.

[Flint1979]

It's Saturday afternoon not a holiday weekend but a Summer weekend nonetheless. 4:00 in the afternoon at the Mackinac Bridge.

Great and imagine if there was all electronic tolling where people didn't have to stop at all. If you can do something to make it just that more efficient why not do it?

So stopping for a whole 5 seconds is going to matter?

[Flint1979]

"I cross the bridge a few times a year and oppose a measure that has reduced congestion everywhere else it has been implemented" is a weird flex.

When someone calls someone else out as a troll and then the alleged "victim" responds like this, maybe it's time to lock the thread.

Just to be clear, I'm not entirely convinced that this person is a troll or trolling. But it is very bizarre to me how much energy they are putting to die on this hill. It's just strange to me.

Which is why I thought they were trolling by saying that an entirely voluntary HOT lane system (MNPass) had more of a reason to integrate into E-ZPass than a mandatory toll bridge that is a similar distance away from the E-ZPass network. It's just bizarre and illogical reasoning to me.

And here we go again with the EZPASS crap.

Let me put this very clearly

Interoperable. Tolling. System. That. Works. With. Any. Other. Toll. Pass.

It. Doesn't. Have. To. Be. EZPASS.

I put periods at the end of each word so you could stop and think about what they mean and we can quit going in circles with this conversation. I'm very much in agreement. It's about time this thread should be locked.

Lock this thread for what? Just because you don't agree?

Someone else brought up locking the thread and I'm just saying I would agree because this doesn't seem like a very productive conversation. But that's none of my business.

It hasn't gone off topic

[Plutonic Panda]

It's Saturday afternoon not a holiday weekend but a Summer weekend nonetheless. 4:00 in the afternoon at the Mackinac Bridge.

Great and imagine if there was all electronic tolling where people didn't have to stop at all. If you can do something to make it just that more efficient why not do it?

So stopping for a whole 5 seconds is going to matter?

Yes

[vdeane]

You are the one that mentioned me and I replied and now your mad. Like I told you earlier, grow up. The Mackinac Bridge will most likely never have EZ-Pass because there is no benefit in getting it. You people think the lack of it causes backups on the bridge, it does not. The bridge is two lanes in each direction, often with a lane closed for maintenance or construction the toll plaza not accepting EZ-Pass is not the reason for any backups on the bridge. Then you say that I haven't given a valid reason why they shouldn't have it, I have been doing that the entire thread.

I think there's a fundamental difference in the mode of thought for you and those of us who think they should be interoperable.  You seem to think that unless interoperability would eliminate bridge congestion, then it should not be done and MacPass should remain separate.  The rest of us think that interoperability should happen even if it would have no effect on congestion.  At all.  Now, I question whether that would really be the case (I would think there would at least be a small change), but it doesn't change our position one bit because our position doesn't hinge on eliminating congestion being a requirement for being interoperable with E-ZPass.

There's actually a mode of thought on this, about whether things are worth doing if they only partially solve a problem, but I think I'll leave it at that, given that the YouTube videos and articles I've seen on this normally reference much more political contexts to explain why certain groups of voters think the way they do about the issues.

That said, I think more Michigan drivers have E-ZPass and use toll roads than you estimate.  When driving back from the Michigan City roadmeet, I encountered multiple Michigan drivers on both the Thruway and Ohio Turnpike.  One didn't have a transponder, one appeared to be a rental, but the others?  They had E-ZPass.  And one of them was even on the Toledo-Cleveland stretch (not the rental, either).  I guess not everyone is as avid a shunpiker as you are.

"I cross the bridge a few times a year and oppose a measure that has reduced congestion everywhere else it has been implemented" is a weird flex.

When someone calls someone else out as a troll and then the alleged "victim" responds like this, maybe it's time to lock the thread.

I cross the bridge more than a few times a year more like about 60-70 times. I know the bridge pretty well. Why can't you people come to terms that the toll plaza isn't the reason for backups at the Mackinac Bridge?

OK, I was going to compare you being stubborn to my parents who refused to get E-ZPass until the Thruway went AET, and then I saw this.  Wow.  Even assuming that's one-way and not round trip, you're pretty much the target customer of MacPass (as opposed to my parents, who only travel the Thruway a fraction of the times per year you cross the bridge, and mostly on the 44-45 stretch, whose 20 cent cash toll was much smaller than the $4 bridge toll).  Yeah, you're just stubborn.  The question you need to answer is, why should you being stubborn affect the rest of us.  You don't want to use E-ZPass?  Fine, you can choose not to.  But you being stubborn has no legitimate bearing on whether MacPass and E-ZPass should become compatible with each other.  None.

If the I-Pass worked at the Bridge, that would be a bit more convenient. I wouldn't save much time at the toll booth though. Those toll takers are very quick handling cash. It's even faster now that the toll is $4.00; things were slower when it was $1.50 or $2.50 because of the coins involved in the transactions. Those toll takers hold bundles of bills in their hands and make change very quickly without using their cash drawers.

This sheds some light on the credit card issue mentioned upthread.  If they're holding rolls of bills expecting to just accept $4 or make change for a larger denomination bill, then getting handed a credit card probably throws them off their rhythm (especially if they need to insert cards and don't do tap to pay).  Contrast the Blue Water Bridge, where the toll taker had the credit card reader held out before I could even roll down my window and grab my card.  It took longer for the toll taker to look at the reader and see the transaction was approved and lift the gate than it did to tap my card and have it process.

The MBA has studied expanding MacPass and joining E-ZPass. For the authority, the economics don't seem to work for them. All of the armchair pontificating here will not replace that determination. They know the specifics on why it would cost too much for them to implement absent an actual requirement to do so. I'm sure that they continue to evaluate the situation, and if things change, they will make a change.

Personally, given the interoperability mandate, I think it was short-sighted to intentionally create an incompatible pass after the mandate's effective date. There's no enforcement to that mandate though, so they're getting away with it. Then again, the MacPass sticker transponders may be technically interoperable with what ISTHA is deploying for I-Pass, so they may have moved in a parallel direction toward future interoperability when and if the economics or the regulatory environment change.

Yes, this.  Do I expect that the bridge will actually become interoperable any time soon?  No.  Even SunPass took years, and FDOT actually supported it.  As for why they say it costs so much, I'm curious if there's a business process reason behind it.  It could easily be "we have some strange procedure that only we do and which we'd have to change to make this work properly so instead we'd try to awkwardly graft it onto what we do now even though it would take much more time and money to do that", which isn't a good thing to say, but is very common in government.

And I really do scratch my head on why they created their own system after the interoperability mandate deadline instead of just joining E-ZPass.  I suspect it's because they were asking the wrong question when they made it, looking just for a modern way to implement their NFC tag and commuter program, not for what would make sense for travelers today building from the ground up.

Now, what the out-of-staters don't get. AET/ETC will not eliminate congestion at the bridge. Full stop. Much of this year's congestion is based on construction bottlenecks. You have a four-lane bridge that's effectively a two-lane bridge much of the time. Prime tourist traffic season is prime construction season. There's almost always a full or partial lane closed in each direction. When the trucks have a 20 mph speed limit and a lane is closed, the bridge backs up some. That is a fact of life. That's not even counting the times when they have to reduce speed limits or even implement escorts due to high winds. Sometimes, they even have to close the bridge completely due to winds or other weather.

I'm curious about the AADT figures Flint gave upthread, because he made it sound like even peak travel days wouldn't break 20k vehicles, which is low enough that an equivalent four-lane surface road would get a road diet.  But I do question whether that 20 mph speed limit for trucks is needed 24/7/365.  Could they improve things by making the speed limits variable, letting trucks go the full 45 mph when conditions allow and lowering it to 20 only when needed?

[bulldog1979]

I'm curious about the AADT figures Flint gave upthread, because he made it sound like even peak travel days wouldn't break 20k vehicles, which is low enough that an equivalent four-lane surface road would get a road diet.  But I do question whether that 20 mph speed limit for trucks is needed 24/7/365.  Could they improve things by making the speed limits variable, letting trucks go the full 45 mph when conditions allow and lowering it to 20 only when needed?

There are safety reasons why trucks are limited to that speed all the time. In short, that limit is always needed on the bridge given the heights and winds experienced in the Straits. The center span can shift as much as 25 feet laterally depending on wind intensity. They do have variable speed limits now in the sense that if the winds pick up enough, cars drop to 20 or 25 mph. Other measures taken include escorting or limiting high-profile vehicles and finally closing the span completely. I find it very unlikely that they'd allow semis to go faster, ever.

In fact:

High Wind Warning
Saturday, Jul 27 - 5:16 PM

Currently we are experiencing winds of sufficient force in the Straits area (20 - 34 mph) to issue a warning to all motorists preparing to cross the Mackinac Bridge.

Examples of vehicles which are especially vulnerable to high winds are pickup trucks with campers, motor homes, vehicles pulling trailers and enclosed semi-truck trailers. Motorists are instructed to reduce their speed to a maximum of 20 miles per hour, turn on their four way flashers, and utilize the outside lane. Motorists are asked to exercise appropriate caution.

The Mackinac Bridge Authority is monitoring wind speeds at various points along the structure. Additional steps will be implemented if conditions change. If you are planning to travel to the Straits area, please tune to AM radio 530 or 1610 for updates.

[GaryV]

Most places, when they create a system using EZPass (or any other compatible one) charge less per vehicle using it.

If the Bridge Authority thinks it would cost more to implement it, they could make the toll higher for using it. Although that would probably skew the results to the premise they evidently have: "See, no one uses it."

[Flint1979]

It's Saturday afternoon not a holiday weekend but a Summer weekend nonetheless. 4:00 in the afternoon at the Mackinac Bridge.

Great and imagine if there was all electronic tolling where people didn't have to stop at all. If you can do something to make it just that more efficient why not do it?

So stopping for a whole 5 seconds is going to matter?

Yes

No it's not, my whole point here is that I have driven over that bridge often enough to know that stopping for 5 seconds to pay a toll is not going to hold me up. It seems like all these ideas on this thread are coming from out of staters. My problem here is that you people seem like you don't believe the things I'm saying even though I have vast experience crossing the bridge.

[Flint1979]

Watch how long this transaction takes using a credit card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI8DOIrqjkg

[Flint1979]

The number of crossings is highest in July and August every year and lowest in January and February. The peak volumes are about 20,000 VPD. Last year July had the highest crossings at 638,241 (20,588 a day). Last year February had the lowest crossings, so far this year January is the winner for lowest crossings (6,175 a day).

In the last ten years July 2021 had the highest crossings at 641,696 that month for an average of 20,699 daily. I saw earlier in this thread that someone mentioned 60,000 crossings daily in the peak months that number isn't even close to reality.

[Molandfreak]

Most places, when they create a system using EZPass (or any other compatible one) charge less per vehicle using it.

If the Bridge Authority thinks it would cost more to implement it, they could make the toll higher for using it. Although that would probably skew the results to the premise they evidently have: "See, no one uses it."

Or, just a thought, they could do what every normal tolling agency does and raise the rates for those paying directly at the booths while lowering the rates for those using MacPass/E-ZPass since it costs significantly more to pay people to take toll payments.

[vdeane]

Watch how long this transaction takes using a credit card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI8DOIrqjkg

Doesn't seem that long, even with all the time taken to get the receipt.  When my parents were still paying cash on the Thruway, most people we'd be stuck behind in line took long enough that it almost felt like clearing customs.

[Rothman]

Watch how long this transaction takes using a credit card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI8DOIrqjkg

Doesn't seem that long, even with all the time taken to get the receipt.  When my parents were still paying cash on the Thruway, most people we'd be stuck behind in line took long enough that it almost felt like clearing customs.

I just remember Williamsville being a nightmare due to the two rows of toll-takers and no one moving up when they were supposed to, resulting in hoarse toll-takers yelling at people to do so all day and night.

[Flint1979]

Watch how long this transaction takes using a credit card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI8DOIrqjkg

Doesn't seem that long, even with all the time taken to get the receipt.  When my parents were still paying cash on the Thruway, most people we'd be stuck behind in line took long enough that it almost felt like clearing customs.

Longer than it does paying cash. I find it stupid that people couldn't have $4 in cash on them to pay the toll instead of having to use a credit card.

[Rothman]

Watch how long this transaction takes using a credit card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI8DOIrqjkg

Doesn't seem that long, even with all the time taken to get the receipt.  When my parents were still paying cash on the Thruway, most people we'd be stuck behind in line took long enough that it almost felt like clearing customs.

Longer than it does paying cash. I find it stupid that people couldn't have $4 in cash on them to pay the toll instead of having to use a credit card.

I find it stupid that people assume that people carry cash in this day and age.  Move into the 21st Century.

[Flint1979]

Watch how long this transaction takes using a credit card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI8DOIrqjkg

Doesn't seem that long, even with all the time taken to get the receipt.  When my parents were still paying cash on the Thruway, most people we'd be stuck behind in line took long enough that it almost felt like clearing customs.

Longer than it does paying cash. I find it stupid that people couldn't have $4 in cash on them to pay the toll instead of having to use a credit card.

I find it stupid that people assume that people carry cash in this day and age.  Move into the 21st Century.

Lol what the hell ever. It's pretty well known that the toll on the Mackinac Bridge is $4, it's not that hard to have $4 available to pay the toll.

[Rothman]

Watch how long this transaction takes using a credit card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI8DOIrqjkg

Doesn't seem that long, even with all the time taken to get the receipt.  When my parents were still paying cash on the Thruway, most people we'd be stuck behind in line took long enough that it almost felt like clearing customs.

Longer than it does paying cash. I find it stupid that people couldn't have $4 in cash on them to pay the toll instead of having to use a credit card.

I find it stupid that people assume that people carry cash in this day and age.  Move into the 21st Century.

Lol what the hell ever. It's pretty well known that the toll on the Mackinac Bridge is $4, it's not that hard to have $4 available to pay the toll.

Sure.  By credit card.