The Next Generation of the Interstate

[kphoger]

I am surprised that doesn't cause enough accidents that someone demands someone do something about it.

  I see you haven't spent much time in Latin America...

[Max Rockatansky]

What K12 is describing for a regular freeway is a Mexican Autopista.  There are definitely safety drawbacks for having narrower lanes and a small exterior shoulder.  It always fun dodging trucks broken down halfway into the travel lanes at 110 KMH. 

I was thinking of European motorways.

But yes...  Mexico...  You're lucky if the trucks you encountered were only halfway into the travel lanes.  I've encountered broken-down trucks that were simply sitting there in the right lane.  Also construction workers working in the right lane with zero advance warning signage.  It's also very, very, very common for overloaded trucks to be doing about 15 mph up a steep grade—and every so often one of them gets out into the left lane to pass the others at about 18 mph.  But the most fun situations are when there's no shoulder, a two-foot drop-off immediately next to the white line, a cross-wind, and a turnpike double passing you with its second trailer wiggling all around in the wind.

I am surprised that doesn't cause enough accidents that someone demands someone do something about it.

Considering the lax standards of surface highways that's comparatively low on the scale of perceived risk.  The Guadalajara Bypass is mostly like what kphoger is describing. 

[Max Rockatansky]

I am surprised that doesn't cause enough accidents that someone demands someone do something about it.

  I see you haven't spent much time in Latin America...

Being the "safety manager" at work I do enjoy being totally divorced from safety anything for a week or two. 

[kphoger]

Being the "safety manager" at work I do enjoy being totally divorced from safety anything for a week or two. 

Some pictures from our roof demolition mission projects over the years.  Are you saying OSHA would not approve?

[Scott5114]

I am surprised that doesn't cause enough accidents that someone demands someone do something about it.

  I see you haven't spent much time in Latin America...

Nope, never been there.

So someone just plows into a broken-down truck, dies, and...it's just shit happens, nobody cares enough to stop it from happening again? I mean, I guess if that the sort of life everyone wants to live, but it's certainly not for me.

[Max Rockatansky]

I am surprised that doesn't cause enough accidents that someone demands someone do something about it.

  I see you haven't spent much time in Latin America...

Nope, never been there.

So someone just plows into a broken-down truck, dies, and...it's just shit happens, nobody cares enough to stop it from happening again? I mean, I guess if that the sort of life everyone wants to live, but it's certainly not for me.

Most regular folks probably don't drive on Autopistas enough to get a local movement of outrage going. Freight vehicles outnumber regular passenger vehicles by a wide margin.  Probably a better chance the wreck would be freight on freight.

[Scott5114]

I am surprised that doesn't cause enough accidents that someone demands someone do something about it.

  I see you haven't spent much time in Latin America...

Nope, never been there.

So someone just plows into a broken-down truck, dies, and...it's just shit happens, nobody cares enough to stop it from happening again? I mean, I guess if that the sort of life everyone wants to live, but it's certainly not for me.

Most regular folks probably don't drive on Autopistas enough to get a local movement of outrage going. Freight vehicles outnumber regular passenger vehicles by a wide margin.  Probably a better chance the wreck would be freight on freight.

You'd think the business interests would say something, then. Trucks ain't cheap...

[kphoger]

I am surprised that doesn't cause enough accidents that someone demands someone do something about it.

So someone just plows into a broken-down truck, dies, and...it's just shit happens, nobody cares enough to stop it from happening again? I mean, I guess if that the sort of life everyone wants to live, but it's certainly not for me.

You'd think the business interests would say something, then. Trucks ain't cheap...

But you are approaching this—as is completely understandable—from a manifestly American perspective.  You find these things unacceptable because, based on your driving history, they are not to be expected.  They are outside the normal experience of driving for you, and that's why they're shocking.

But, for a Mexican, these things are normal.

You see a truck with its hood up in a travel lane on the Interstate, and you think, 'Whoa! that driver really should have pulled onto the shoulder!' or 'Whoa! they really need to add shoulders to this highway!'  Meanwhile, a Mexican driver sees a truck with its hood up in a travel lane on the Autopista, and he thinks, 'Oh look, that truck broke down, poor guy', and then he simply changes lanes and keeps driving.  Normal.  No second thought.

You see a work crew with jackhammers and shovels working in a travel lane on the Interstate, with no warning signs or road cones, and you think, 'Whoa! they really need to warn drivers about the lane closure!'  Meanwhile, a Mexican driver sees a work crew with jackhammers and shovels working in a travel lane on the Autopista, with no warning signs or road cones, and he thinks, 'Oh look, they're working on the highway', and then he simply changes lanes and keeps driving.  Normal.  No second thought.

You see an overloaded turnpike double chugging at 15 mph up a steep grade on the Interstate, and you think, 'Whoa! that guy needs to get off the road if his truck can't handle the grade!' or 'Whoa! there needs to be a set of weigh scales nearby!' or 'Whoa! they need to enforce weight limits better!'  Meanwhile, a Mexican driver sees an overloaded turnpike double chugging at 15 mph up a steep grade on the Autopista, and he thinks, 'There's a truck', and then he simply changes lanes and keeps driving.  Normal.  No second thought.  And if another overloaded truck pulls out to pass it at 18 mph, he thinks, 'Oh great', and then he simply slows down until he can pass.  Normal.  No horn honking, no flipping the bird, no second thought.

To you, these situations are alarming.  To them, these situations are just... driving.

[Rothman]

Makes me wonder if Mexican roads are just as safe as ours, then.

[Max Rockatansky]

Drivers throwing on their emergency lights for traffic slowdowns throws me off all the time when I'm in the Guadalajara area.  Another one that gets me (in a good way) is when slow cars or trucks will get over to the shoulder for faster traffic on surface highways. 

Regarding Guadalajara, everyone I know in Jalisco is terrified to drive there (hence why I drive).  I honestly can't figure out what they are so afraid of.  Yeah Federal Highways 15 and 23 often are busy but not beyond what I would expect in an urban area.  The streets are more difficult to navigate because of poor signage, but that doesn't exactly equate to much additional hazard. 

[kphoger]

Makes me wonder if Mexican roads are just as safe as ours, then.

No.  There is a LOT of tailgating, including by big rigs.  There is a LOT of death-defying overtaking with oncoming traffic.  There are a LOT of cars on the road with no functioning brake lights.  Etc, etc, etc, etc.

[vdeane]

Regarding Guadalajara, everyone I know in Jalisco is terrified to drive there (hence why I drive).  I honestly can't figure out what they are so afraid of.  Yeah Federal Highways 15 and 23 often are busy but not beyond what I would expect in an urban area.  The streets are more difficult to navigate because of poor signage, but that doesn't exactly equate to much additional hazard.

The traffic is probably why.  Obstacles in the road like what seems to be common or Mexico would seem to me to require there to be less traffic on the roads to not cause a problem.  Heck, just having the "move over" law expanded to all vehicles (not just emergency or other vehicles with flashing lights) has increased my stress level.  Vehicles with flashing lights are easy to see.  Regular cars on the shoulder are often difficult to spot until you're right on top of them, and often by that point there's no room to move over because the other lane is occupied by a line of cars.

Honestly, things like working in the road with no warning while traffic is moving at 70+ mph sounds like asking to get hit and killed.  It happens in the US even with our work zone warning/protection when motorists refused to move out of closed lanes, maneuver around barriers, etc.  I can only imagine how much worse it would be if they were there with nothing.

[Hunty2022]

it has been centuries since we last funded a system like this.

I met King James I at the groundbreaking ceremony for I-64. Very honored by that.

[Max Rockatansky]

Regarding Guadalajara, everyone I know in Jalisco is terrified to drive there (hence why I drive).  I honestly can't figure out what they are so afraid of.  Yeah Federal Highways 15 and 23 often are busy but not beyond what I would expect in an urban area.  The streets are more difficult to navigate because of poor signage, but that doesn't exactly equate to much additional hazard.

The traffic is probably why.  Obstacles in the road like what seems to be common or Mexico would seem to me to require there to be less traffic on the roads to not cause a problem.  Heck, just having the "move over" law expanded to all vehicles (not just emergency or other vehicles with flashing lights) has increased my stress level.  Vehicles with flashing lights are easy to see.  Regular cars on the shoulder are often difficult to spot until you're right on top of them, and often by that point there's no room to move over because the other lane is occupied by a line of cars.

Honestly, things like working in the road with no warning while traffic is moving at 70+ mph sounds like asking to get hit and killed.  It happens in the US even with our work zone warning/protection when motorists refused to move out of closed lanes, maneuver around barriers, etc.  I can only imagine how much worse it would be if they were there with nothing.

But these are surface highways I'm taking about.  These essentially have no traffic lights and pedestrians have to cross overhead via bridges.  Traffic chugs along but the speed seems to rarely get above 60 KMH in the urban core.  To me that seems feels more annoying than hazardous. 

You do get random shit in the roadway like you said though.  Like this brick truck on Federal Highway 15 in Zapopan with a questionably secured load. 

https://flic.kr/p/2ixBMEK

[kphoger]

Honestly, things like working in the road with no warning while traffic is moving at 70+ mph sounds like asking to get hit and killed.  It happens in the US even with our work zone warning/protection when motorists refused to move out of closed lanes, maneuver around barriers, etc.  I can only imagine how much worse it would be if they were there with nothing.

The last time I encountered this, the workers were also in the shade of an overpass, so less visible than they might otherwise have been.  (I can remember if it was this pedestrian overpass or the vehicular overpass just beyond it.  The quality of the pavement in the GSV shots leads me to suspect it was the latter.

(And yes, in the first GSV shot, that bus just pulled out from a standstill in front of the Google car.  Technically, it's in a 40 km/h speed zone, but nobody obeys that and instead treats it like the regular 100 km/h speed limit—which means out-of-state folks on long drives zoom through at 120-130 km/h.  Also:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/cJaeSfEUq8Y4kEZb9 ...)

[Scott5114]

But you are approaching this—as is completely understandable—from a manifestly American perspective.  You find these things unacceptable because, based on your driving history, they are not to be expected.  They are outside the normal experience of driving for you, and that's why they're shocking.

But, for a Mexican, these things are normal.

Right, and I understand that. What I don't understand is that these things seem like they would inevitably cause property damage and/or injury and/or death on a regular basis. (Even if all of these things are normal parts of the driving landscape, surely people get unlucky sometimes and an accident occurs, since they do even with US safety features.) When that happens, everyone just accepts it and doesn't ask themselves if maybe lessons could be learned to avoid it happening again in the future?

[english si]

And, in all honesty, every single time you make a post talking about 150 MPH highways, you keep ignoring that we as a species basically already have developed just that, and put it in the most optimal form:

With you on this - that smart highways are basically reinventing the ~200 year old technology of the train, but I'm not sure a German train is the most optimal form right now!

[Max Rockatansky]

But you are approaching this—as is completely understandable—from a manifestly American perspective.  You find these things unacceptable because, based on your driving history, they are not to be expected.  They are outside the normal experience of driving for you, and that's why they're shocking.

But, for a Mexican, these things are normal.

Right, and I understand that. What I don't understand is that these things seem like they would inevitably cause property damage and/or injury and/or death on a regular basis. (Even if all of these things are normal parts of the driving landscape, surely people get unlucky sometimes and an accident occurs, since they do even with US safety features.) When that happens, everyone just accepts it and doesn't ask themselves if maybe lessons could be learned to avoid it happening again in the future?

Yes, pretty much.  Much of the mindsets you see as normal in the United States regarding "safety anything" simply don't exist in Mexico. 

[kernals12]

With you on this - that smart highways are basically reinventing the ~200 year old technology of the train, but I'm not sure a German train is the most optimal form right now!

Except that cars are private and don't run on fixed schedules

[Max Rockatansky]

With you on this - that smart highways are basically reinventing the ~200 year old technology of the train, but I'm not sure a German train is the most optimal form right now!

Except that cars are private and don't run on fixed schedules

So, the world should bend to what your specific niche wants are versus you being inconvenienced by sharing a train car or row on a bus?  All these mental gymnastics you go through just to justify that you don't like being around people or driving must be exhausting.

I feel compelled to ask, what are your actual professional credentials?  You keep linking articles and try to talk a big talk about future tech and your 150 MPH AI cars.  Surely there must be something in your professional or educational background that backs up the things you keep trying to push on this forum.  Why don't you explain why your ideas are due the respect you seem to think they deserving of?

I can't be the only who getting helicopter grappling hooks and Arctic Island Gulag vibes every time K12 gets into this 150 MPH AI car stuff.

[freebrickproductions]

With you on this - that smart highways are basically reinventing the ~200 year old technology of the train, but I'm not sure a German train is the most optimal form right now!

Admittedly I just googled for images of high speed rail and looked for something that was a good-quality image and wasn't:
-Amtrak Acela/Avelia Liberty (Acela 2)
-AI-generated
-A 3d render/model

But yeah, whatever Kernals is proposing is generally already done better by trains.

[Rothman]

He's just a kid.

[Max Rockatansky]

He's just a kid.

While true enough is enough with all this 150 MPH AI car stuff.  This isn't even a thread he started; it got hijacked. 

[kernals12]

So, the world should bend to what your specific niche wants are versus you being inconvenienced by sharing a train car or row on a bus?  All these mental gymnastics you go through just to justify that you don't like being around people or driving must be exhausting.

I love driving and hopefully tomorrow's highways will be able to accommodate manual driving. And even if I didn't like driving, I would hardly be alone.

[Max Rockatansky]

So, the world should bend to what your specific niche wants are versus you being inconvenienced by sharing a train car or row on a bus?  All these mental gymnastics you go through just to justify that you don't like being around people or driving must be exhausting.

I love driving and hopefully tomorrow's highways will be able to accommodate manual driving. And even if I didn't like driving, I would hardly be alone.

I'm finding that statement questionable given how little actual road content or general observations you have produced. 

But yeah, go ahead and ignore the rest of what I said.  I recall you once calling the bulk of us "strangers."  Did it ever occur to you that you are talking to a lot of people with actual qualifications in transportation?  Hell, a lot of us even know each other off forum.  You're the one who is the unverified quantity here.  If you want vindication in this hobby, do something to earn it.  This futurism and AI car stuff isn't going to get you there.