Minor things that bother you

[webny99]

To this day, companies that differentiate between PTO and sick pay make absolutely no sense to me. "Paid time off" means you get paid on a day where you're not working. Why does it matter if you're on a beach or have the flu?

It makes total sense to me.  It's about incentives.  If you use your sick time when you're sick you don't lose your vacation later.  If you have to lose your vacation if you call in sick, you're more likely to go in when you're sick and infect the whole office, your customers, etc.

If I'm given 15 days off to use as I see fit, and I'm sick 15 days, I don't get any paid vacation. If I'm given 10 days of PTO and 5 sick days and then I'm sick 15 says, I either still don't get a paid vacation, or I do get a paid vacation and also take 10 days unpaid where I was sick. What am I missing?

The fact that the bolded statement would never actually happen in real life. You would never use all of your vacation as sick time. If it was going to come to that, you'd just stick it out and go to work on some of those days to preserve your vacation time for, well, vacation.

[kphoger]

The fact that the bolded statement would never actually happen in real life. You would never use all of your vacation as sick time. If it was going to come to that, you'd just stick it out and go to work on some of those days to preserve your vacation time for, well, vacation.

Hysterectomy?  Hip replacement?

[JayhawkCO]

To this day, companies that differentiate between PTO and sick pay make absolutely no sense to me. "Paid time off" means you get paid on a day where you're not working. Why does it matter if you're on a beach or have the flu?

It makes total sense to me.  It's about incentives.  If you use your sick time when you're sick you don't lose your vacation later.  If you have to lose your vacation if you call in sick, you're more likely to go in when you're sick and infect the whole office, your customers, etc.

If I'm given 15 days off to use as I see fit, and I'm sick 15 days, I don't get any paid vacation. If I'm given 10 days of PTO and 5 sick days and then I'm sick 15 says, I either still don't get a paid vacation, or I do get a paid vacation and also take 10 days unpaid where I was sick. What am I missing?

The fact that the bolded statement would never actually happen in real life. You would never use all of your vacation as sick time. If it was going to come to that, you'd just stick it out and go to work on some of those days to preserve your vacation time for, well, vacation.

Again, what am I missing? Is there ever a scenario where the first option is better for the employee? The x and y above are basically, "however many days you take for paid vacation, you take an equal amount of unpaid sick time".

In the first columns where you're never sick, you get five extra days of vacation for the better (IMO) option. In the last two sets of columns, you don't have to take any unpaid days for the better (IMO) option.

[kernals12]

To this day, companies that differentiate between PTO and sick pay make absolutely no sense to me. "Paid time off" means you get paid on a day where you're not working. Why does it matter if you're on a beach or have the flu?

Combining the 2 isn't fair to employees who get sick more often

[Max Rockatansky]

Just checked my Sick Leave balance.  Apparently I'm 957 hours as of the last payday. There is no limit on how much Sick I can carry over. 

[kphoger]

Potential disadvantages to a combined PTO structure:

Employer — If PTO is paid out upon termination, then the employer has to pay out more time than they otherwise would have.  Typically, when vacation and sick time are not combined, sick time does not pay out upon termination.  In some states, this is a matter of state law.

Employee — There is no automatic reserve of sick time.  If the employee uses too much PTO for vacation, and then gets sick later, he may not have enough PTO left to cover that time off.

Employee — Assuming a graduated PTO accrual schedule, newly starting employees will have less time off available to use for an illness.  Typically, when vacation and sick time are not combined, sick time starts out at the full amount rather than stepping up with time.

[webny99]

The fact that the bolded statement would never actually happen in real life. You would never use all of your vacation as sick time. If it was going to come to that, you'd just stick it out and go to work on some of those days to preserve your vacation time for, well, vacation.

Hysterectomy?  Hip replacement?

Wouldn't that generally be a medical leave?

[webny99]

Again, what am I missing? Is there ever a scenario where the first option is better for the employee? The x and y above are basically, "however many days you take for paid vacation, you take an equal amount of unpaid sick time".

In the first columns where you're never sick, you get five extra days of vacation for the better (IMO) option. In the last two sets of columns, you don't have to take any unpaid days for the better (IMO) option.

I think this is becoming more complicated than it needs to be, so I would just refer back to my earlier post below. Beyond that, I can accept that it's not really that big of a deal whether PTO and sick time are combined or not.

Perhaps this is overly cynical, but I'm assuming the premise is that you would only get two weeks off, not three, because I think most employers would prefer not to account for sick time if given a choice.

But if they're required to do so (as they are in New York), they generally still offer the same two weeks in additional to the sick time. Hence, the employee ends up with both sick time and PTO totalling three weeks, whereas if they didn't differentiate they would have only had two weeks PTO and been expected to use that to cover sicknesses, appointments, etc.

[Max Rockatansky]

The fact that the bolded statement would never actually happen in real life. You would never use all of your vacation as sick time. If it was going to come to that, you'd just stick it out and go to work on some of those days to preserve your vacation time for, well, vacation.

Hysterectomy?  Hip replacement?

Wouldn't that generally be a medical leave?

Disability pay often isn't paid at full wage. 

[kernals12]

The city of Maricopa is not located in Maricopa County

[Max Rockatansky]

It was when it was founded. 

Likewise the Fresno River is located in Madera County.  Prior to 1893 what was Madera County didn't exist and the lands north of the San Joaquin River were part of Fresno County.  Fresno Flats founded on said river in 1858 and predates what is now Fresno by 14 years.  Fresno Flats renamed to Oakhurst in 1912 given by then it was in Madera County. 

[JayhawkCO]

To this day, companies that differentiate between PTO and sick pay make absolutely no sense to me. "Paid time off" means you get paid on a day where you're not working. Why does it matter if you're on a beach or have the flu?

Combining the 2 isn't fair to employees who get sick more often

Give me one example where it isn't. Use numbers.

[JayhawkCO]

Potential disadvantages to a combined PTO structure:

Employer — If PTO is paid out upon termination, then the employer has to pay out more time than they otherwise would have.  Typically, when vacation and sick time are not combined, sick time does not pay out upon termination.  In some states, this is a matter of state law.

Employee — There is no automatic reserve of sick time.  If the employee uses too much PTO for vacation, and then gets sick later, he may not have enough PTO left to cover that time off.

Employee — Assuming a graduated PTO accrual schedule, newly starting employees will have less time off available to use for an illness.  Typically, when vacation and sick time are not combined, sick time starts out at the full amount rather than stepping up with time.

Your second example is no different than what I'm describing. Either way you get unpaid days if you choose to take a paid vacation. It doesn't matter in which order those occur.

Your third example is apples and oranges. I'm describing having 15 "vested" paid days off and the different versions thereof. If you haven't accrued your PTO yet, you can't include those days in the discussion.

[kkt]

To this day, companies that differentiate between PTO and sick pay make absolutely no sense to me. "Paid time off" means you get paid on a day where you're not working. Why does it matter if you're on a beach or have the flu?

It makes total sense to me.  It's about incentives.  If you use your sick time when you're sick you don't lose your vacation later.  If you have to lose your vacation if you call in sick, you're more likely to go in when you're sick and infect the whole office, your customers, etc.

If I'm given 15 days off to use as I see fit, and I'm sick 15 days, I don't get any paid vacation. If I'm given 10 days of PTO and 5 sick days and then I'm sick 15 says, I either still don't get a paid vacation, or I do get a paid vacation and also take 10 days unpaid where I was sick. What am I missing?

That sick time accumulates if you don't use it all, and vacation time has limits on how much you can carry over from year to year.  An employee who was working there for several years and been fairly healthy would probably have 15 days of sick time available.

[Scott5114]

To this day, companies that differentiate between PTO and sick pay make absolutely no sense to me. "Paid time off" means you get paid on a day where you're not working. Why does it matter if you're on a beach or have the flu?

I agree that I prefer to have it all lumped into PTO.  But I also understand why a company would prefer to only pay out unused Vacation and Personal time, but not Sick time.  And that's the way it was where I worked:  when I left, my unused Sick time didn't pay out but the other two did.

Again, I don't see why there there needs to be a differentiation. The company should be thanking you for working more days than "you had to". It doesn't matter why you chose not to use your days.

The purpose of vacation time is to grant the employee time off to rest, recharge, and focus on something other than work, so as to not get burned out. This results in better morale and thus better work output.

Someone who is going to a doctor appointment or recovering from an illness is not resting and recharging in a way that will prevent them from burning out; they are focusing on getting better. Therefore it doesn't make sense to dock their morale time off if they are absent for other reasons.

I had a job that only gave me 40 hours of PTO, and if I needed to take time off to help my wife with her chronic health condition they would forcibly dock my PTO (I would have taken it off unpaid but they refused to let me do that). I hated HR with a passion for that, because that was not a vacation I was taking, and instead it kept me from actually taking a vacation. So I didn't ever get to take an actual break from work for a couple of years. Guess how good of an employee I was at that point?

Use numbers.

Here are some I use frequently: 11, 95, 215, 574, 595, 613.

[JayhawkCO]

To this day, companies that differentiate between PTO and sick pay make absolutely no sense to me. "Paid time off" means you get paid on a day where you're not working. Why does it matter if you're on a beach or have the flu?

It makes total sense to me.  It's about incentives.  If you use your sick time when you're sick you don't lose your vacation later.  If you have to lose your vacation if you call in sick, you're more likely to go in when you're sick and infect the whole office, your customers, etc.

If I'm given 15 days off to use as I see fit, and I'm sick 15 days, I don't get any paid vacation. If I'm given 10 days of PTO and 5 sick days and then I'm sick 15 says, I either still don't get a paid vacation, or I do get a paid vacation and also take 10 days unpaid where I was sick. What am I missing?

That sick time accumulates if you don't use it all, and vacation time has limits on how much you can carry over from year to year.  An employee who was working there for several years and been fairly healthy would probably have 15 days of sick time available.

Good thing the person who never gets sick gets more sick time. And it's definitely not universal that you can carry over sick time.

[vdeane]

(also, I hate listening to the dryer).

That sounds like a minor thing that bothers you.

Indeed.  I thought I'd have so much flexibility with in-unit laundry, but since I don't like listening to it when watching TV or in the evenings, in practice I still do laundry exclusively on weekend afternoons (although I did shift from Saturday to Sunday, ironically around the same time my Mom moved her laundry day from Sunday to Saturday).

To this day, companies that differentiate between PTO and sick pay make absolutely no sense to me. "Paid time off" means you get paid on a day where you're not working. Why does it matter if you're on a beach or have the flu?

It makes total sense to me.  It's about incentives.  If you use your sick time when you're sick you don't lose your vacation later.  If you have to lose your vacation if you call in sick, you're more likely to go in when you're sick and infect the whole office, your customers, etc.

If I'm given 15 days off to use as I see fit, and I'm sick 15 days, I don't get any paid vacation. If I'm given 10 days of PTO and 5 sick days and then I'm sick 15 says, I either still don't get a paid vacation, or I do get a paid vacation and also take 10 days unpaid where I was sick. What am I missing?

You're thinking it from the perspective of "if I had X vacation and Y sick, I can now use any Y sick as vacation instead if I wasn't going to use it".  Some of us are thinking of it as "I have X PTO, but if I get sick and take a day off that's now X-1 that I can use as vacation".

I should add that I also agree with this. I don't necessarily agree that sick time needs to be unlimited, but providing at least a week (which is mandated here in New York state) and keeping it separate from regular vacation is a good baseline.

If there's a mandate, then it must not include "keep it separate from vacation".  My one private industry job was four weeks PTO, with no separate vacation/sick/personal; it was all one bucket.  It did indeed create an incentive to try to minimize use for actual sick time off, since using it for that would cut into potential vacation time.

Depending on when that was, the mandate is most likely more recent. It went into effect September 2020. And even then, I don't know if they are actually required to be kept separate, but it's certainly a good idea.

Yeah, this was 2013.

To this day, companies that differentiate between PTO and sick pay make absolutely no sense to me. "Paid time off" means you get paid on a day where you're not working. Why does it matter if you're on a beach or have the flu?

It makes total sense to me.  It's about incentives.  If you use your sick time when you're sick you don't lose your vacation later.  If you have to lose your vacation if you call in sick, you're more likely to go in when you're sick and infect the whole office, your customers, etc.

If I'm given 15 days off to use as I see fit, and I'm sick 15 days, I don't get any paid vacation. If I'm given 10 days of PTO and 5 sick days and then I'm sick 15 says, I either still don't get a paid vacation, or I do get a paid vacation and also take 10 days unpaid where I was sick. What am I missing?

That sick time accumulates if you don't use it all, and vacation time has limits on how much you can carry over from year to year.  An employee who was working there for several years and been fairly healthy would probably have 15 days of sick time available.

This is common in New York state government.  Vacation over 300 hours is lost on April 1.  Sick accumulates to over 1500 hours (I forget the new amount; 1500 is still the amount that can be used to reduce premiums on the retiree health benefit).  Employees that don't have kids (and therefore aren't constantly staying home to take care of a sick kid) can easily accrue many, many hours over the course of their career (we get two calendar weeks a year, or 14 days); I have enough that I'm essentially self-insured for short-term disability.

[kkt]

(also, I hate listening to the dryer).

That sounds like a minor thing that bothers you.

Indeed.  I thought I'd have so much flexibility with in-unit laundry, but since I don't like listening to it when watching TV or in the evenings, in practice I still do laundry exclusively on weekend afternoons (although I did shift from Saturday to Sunday, ironically around the same time my Mom moved her laundry day from Sunday to Saturday).

To this day, companies that differentiate between PTO and sick pay make absolutely no sense to me. "Paid time off" means you get paid on a day where you're not working. Why does it matter if you're on a beach or have the flu?

It makes total sense to me.  It's about incentives.  If you use your sick time when you're sick you don't lose your vacation later.  If you have to lose your vacation if you call in sick, you're more likely to go in when you're sick and infect the whole office, your customers, etc.

If I'm given 15 days off to use as I see fit, and I'm sick 15 days, I don't get any paid vacation. If I'm given 10 days of PTO and 5 sick days and then I'm sick 15 says, I either still don't get a paid vacation, or I do get a paid vacation and also take 10 days unpaid where I was sick. What am I missing?

You're thinking it from the perspective of "if I had X vacation and Y sick, I can now use any Y sick as vacation instead if I wasn't going to use it".  Some of us are thinking of it as "I have X PTO, but if I get sick and take a day off that's now X-1 that I can use as vacation".

I should add that I also agree with this. I don't necessarily agree that sick time needs to be unlimited, but providing at least a week (which is mandated here in New York state) and keeping it separate from regular vacation is a good baseline.

If there's a mandate, then it must not include "keep it separate from vacation".  My one private industry job was four weeks PTO, with no separate vacation/sick/personal; it was all one bucket.  It did indeed create an incentive to try to minimize use for actual sick time off, since using it for that would cut into potential vacation time.

Depending on when that was, the mandate is most likely more recent. It went into effect September 2020. And even then, I don't know if they are actually required to be kept separate, but it's certainly a good idea.

Yeah, this was 2013.

To this day, companies that differentiate between PTO and sick pay make absolutely no sense to me. "Paid time off" means you get paid on a day where you're not working. Why does it matter if you're on a beach or have the flu?

It makes total sense to me.  It's about incentives.  If you use your sick time when you're sick you don't lose your vacation later.  If you have to lose your vacation if you call in sick, you're more likely to go in when you're sick and infect the whole office, your customers, etc.

If I'm given 15 days off to use as I see fit, and I'm sick 15 days, I don't get any paid vacation. If I'm given 10 days of PTO and 5 sick days and then I'm sick 15 says, I either still don't get a paid vacation, or I do get a paid vacation and also take 10 days unpaid where I was sick. What am I missing?

That sick time accumulates if you don't use it all, and vacation time has limits on how much you can carry over from year to year.  An employee who was working there for several years and been fairly healthy would probably have 15 days of sick time available.

This is common in New York state government.  Vacation over 300 hours is lost on April 1.  Sick accumulates to over 1500 hours (I forget the new amount; 1500 is still the amount that can be used to reduce premiums on the retiree health benefit).  Employees that don't have kids (and therefore aren't constantly staying home to take care of a sick kid) can easily accrue many, many hours over the course of their career (we get two calendar weeks a year, or 14 days); I have enough that I'm essentially self-insured for short-term disability.

It would suck to have a single pot of PTO.  You might book a vacation months ahead, then get sick and be unable to take it or to get your deposits back.

Yes, New York State is a fair amount like Washington as far as leave.  We lost vacation over 240 hours at our employment anniversary month, and we had no limit on how much sick time could accumulate.  At my peak, before my mom was sick, I had something like six month's worth.  For about two months I spent 4 days a week at my mom's taking care of her, coming in to work one day a week for urgent issues.  On retirement, the unused sick time turned into a medical flexible spending account, able to be used for any medical expenses including premiums, and to be invested or inherited.  The unused annual leave turned into part of the severance payment at something like 50% of what would have been paid in salary.

Yes, some years before I reduced my long-term disability from 60 days before it took effect to 120 days before it took effect, to lower the premiums.

I know the private sector doesn't usually offer benefits like this, but they don't really cost that much and they promote loyalty and retention among the employees.

[JayhawkCO]

Nothing that anyone is saying, apart from being able to carry over unlimited sick days, which certainly isn't universal, has changed my mind.

In my head, instead of getting $15 cash, you all would rather have a $10 gift card to one company and a $5 to another, restricting what you can do with your funds. I don't see how that's ever better for you.

[kernals12]

Signing I-10 as East and West may obey AASHTO rules, but as a resident of Maricopa County's East Valley, where the freeway travels in a North South direction all the way down to Tucson, it's disorienting.

[jeffandnicole]

Nothing that anyone is saying, apart from being able to carry over unlimited sick days, which certainly isn't universal, has changed my mind.

In my head, instead of getting $15 cash, you all would rather have a $10 gift card to one company and a $5 to another, restricting what you can do with your funds. I don't see how that's ever better for you.

The carry over is one of the leading reasons not to get rid of separated PTO options. 

But companies that do combined PTO do so to screw over the employee.  Employees near the end of the year with limited PTO are inclined to save it in case they get sick.  If they don't, and the company has a policy of needing multi-day vacation time scheduled in advance, they miss out on using all their allotted PTO.

[JayhawkCO]

But companies that do combined PTO do so to screw over the employee.  Employees near the end of the year with limited PTO are inclined to save it in case they get sick.  If they don't, and the company has a policy of needing multi-day vacation time scheduled in advance, they miss out on using all their allotted PTO.

Again, disagree. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but in your example, if you have a sickness right at the end of the year and you need two days off, these are the scenarios:

All of your PTO is combined and you've used it all: You take two unpaid days
All of your PTO is combined and you have two days left: You take two paid days
You have separate Vacation/Sick and you've all of your sick days: You use two vacation days or take two unpaid days
You have separate Vacation/Sick and you have two sick days remaining: You take two paid days

How is it any different?

[kkt]

But companies that do combined PTO do so to screw over the employee.  Employees near the end of the year with limited PTO are inclined to save it in case they get sick.  If they don't, and the company has a policy of needing multi-day vacation time scheduled in advance, they miss out on using all their allotted PTO.

Again, disagree. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but in your example, if you have a sickness right at the end of the year and you need two days off, these are the scenarios:

All of your PTO is combined and you've used it all: You take two unpaid days
All of your PTO is combined and you have two days left: You take two paid days
You have separate Vacation/Sick and you've all of your sick days: You use two vacation days or take two unpaid days
You have separate Vacation/Sick and you have two sick days remaining: You take two paid days

How is it any different?

Your scenario is very unlikely, unless you're sick a whole lot or you're in your first year or two of employment.  The point is that you can have a large reserve of sick days so you don't have to miss your vacation for the year or come in despite being sick.  The workplace is healthier for everyone who works there, both by minimizing the incentive to work while sick and by making sure everyone gets a vacation.  The workplace is comfortable allowing sick time to accumulate because sickness and doctor's appointments are all that it's used for.

[jeffandnicole]

But companies that do combined PTO do so to screw over the employee.  Employees near the end of the year with limited PTO are inclined to save it in case they get sick.  If they don't, and the company has a policy of needing multi-day vacation time scheduled in advance, they miss out on using all their allotted PTO.

Again, disagree. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but in your example, if you have a sickness right at the end of the year and you need two days off, these are the scenarios:

All of your PTO is combined and you've used it all: You take two unpaid days
All of your PTO is combined and you have two days left: You take two paid days
You have separate Vacation/Sick and you've all of your sick days: You use two vacation days or take two unpaid days
You have separate Vacation/Sick and you have two sick days remaining: You take two paid days

How is it any different?

It's a dead horse because you only consider one opinion to be the only valid one, and figure people can easily take off without pay.

In many employment places, running out of PTO and taking unpaid time is seen by management that someone can't properly manage their time.  It's a violation that results in reprimands, a poor performance review, and a reduction or elimination of a pay increase.

If that PTO resets on Jan 1, taking unpaid leave at the end of the year is the worst time for many workers, especially those that live paycheck to paycheck and have gifts that need to be paid for.  Even if PTO resets mid-year, many people would be hurting missing a few days from their paychecks.

You also aren't accounting for employers that allow employees to carry over sick time, but not vacation time, or can carry over some vacation time and unlimited sick time.

There isn't any one best option.  Some employers with a bank of PTO are better at working with their employees over its usage. Employees within a workplace will prefer one over another.  In some workplaces, someone could be out for months utilizing their banked sick time, or could retire and receive tens of thousands of dollars for unused sick or vacation time.  In other workplaces, banked PTO would earn an employee zilch.

[kphoger]

Potential disadvantages to a combined PTO structure:

Employer — If PTO is paid out upon termination, then the employer has to pay out more time than they otherwise would have.  Typically, when vacation and sick time are not combined, sick time does not pay out upon termination.  In some states, this is a matter of state law.

Employee — There is no automatic reserve of sick time.  If the employee uses too much PTO for vacation, and then gets sick later, he may not have enough PTO left to cover that time off.

Employee — Assuming a graduated PTO accrual schedule, newly starting employees will have less time off available to use for an illness.  Typically, when vacation and sick time are not combined, sick time starts out at the full amount rather than stepping up with time.

Your second example is no different than what I'm describing. Either way you get unpaid days if you choose to take a paid vacation. It doesn't matter in which order those occur.

Incentive was mentioned earlier.  Here's what I'm talking about:

Combined pot PTO:

— I have 30-some hours of accrued PTO.  I could use some time off.  I think I'll schedule a six-day vacation, covering a week-end and 32 hours of PTO.

— Oof.  I just came down with influenza/covid/whatever.  I won't be able to work for four or five days.  Oops, I'm out of PTO.  I guess it will have to go unpaid.  That sucks.

Separate vacation and sick time:

— I have 20-some hours of accrued vacation time.  I could use some time off.  I think I'll schedule a five-day vacation, covering a week-end and 24 hours of PTO.

— Oof.  I just came down with influenza/covid/whatever.  I won't be able to work for four or five days.  I guess I can finally use some of this sick time that I never take.

Your third example is apples and oranges. I'm describing having 15 "vested" paid days off and the different versions thereof. If you haven't accrued your PTO yet, you can't include those days in the discussion.

If you haven't accrued your PTO yet, then it sucks to get sick.  Why am I not allowed to say that?

Also, if you've worked at a company for seventeen years (as I have done) but can only carry over 40 hours of PTO into the new year (as I can only do), then what happens when you are out sick for 2½ weeks in January?  But, with separate vacation and sick time, all of the sick time is typically available immediately:  even if you can't carry it over from one year to the next, the full annual amount is still available for you to use in January.  Correct?

In my head, instead of getting $15 cash, you all would rather have a $10 gift card to one company and a $5 to another, restricting what you can do with your funds. I don't see how that's ever better for you.

It's like putting those $5 in your savings account instead of checking.  Five bucks for a rainy (sick) day.