Virginia

[Rothman]

That's the initial financial plan from 2023.  What would be more interesting is what the engineer's estimate was more recently -- like I said, at Final RFP, the design-build equivalent to PS&E.
And it looks like you made the mistake of comparing total costs to the contract awards which only include detailed design, construction and construction inspection for design-build contracts, anyway.  Not a huge difference percentage-wise, though.

These as mentioned are design-build contracts that include right-of-way acquisition, everything but:
VDOT Project Oversight Costs: VDOT post-award costs to manage the project and provide oversight of the project are estimated to be approx. 6% of the Design-Builder's cost. These costs include overall project management, contract administration, and construction oversight.

If you have been following contract awards for a good time, you know that they can vary widely from the engineering estimate.

Depending on current industry economical conditions, a (for example) $100 million project could get several bids in the 70s, or could get a couple bids around 100, or could get bids in the 110s, or maybe only one bid around 120 (which the DOT rejects).

It all depends on what contractors are willing to build it for.

These projects were stated as a $750 million project when this was initiated about 2020.

There would have been little if any significant changes, and very little new right-of-way is needed. Like I said, the project is add one lane and full shoulder each way in the median. No interchange upgrades.

You can read the terms, but you don't seem to understand them fully. You aren't reading the rest of the document as carefully as you should, either. Please review again the contractor's responsibilities again.

ROW acquisition is a distinct phase of a project, whether design-build or not.  I'd love to see how the funding is actually programmed for the project, since the financial plan is only a description.

In any matter, given how the contractor's duties are described, mostly as expected, once again the comparisons you're making are not totally accurate.  It could be that there were some true savings, but without the actual estimate at the time of Final RFP, one cannot be sure.

Dealing with a decent-sized design-build project mysef right now and the initial financial plan is now quite a bit removed from reality and it hasn't even hit draft RFP yet...

[Beltway]

ROW acquisition is a distinct phase of a project, whether design-build or not.  I'd love to see how the funding is actually programmed for the project, since the financial plan is only a description.
In any matter, given how the contractor's duties are described, mostly as expected, once again the comparisons you're making are not totally accurate.  It could be that there were some true savings, but without the actual estimate at the time of Final RFP, one cannot be sure.

You are way overanalyzing this.

Here is the estimate on the Initial Financial Plan.
First entry is Segment A, second is Segment B, and the third and fourth are Segment C.


As can be seen, there is very little new R/W needed. There is less than a year between this finance plan and the award of Segment A. I will see if there is a Final RFP estimate online, but given the aforementioned nature of construction there would be very little if any design changes.

I am not interested in getting down into minutia on this. The project engineers will handle all the details.

Bottom line is that the bids came in much lower, and the average cost per mile is $20.9 million, which is good news in my book.

Better than the original $26.8 million per mile average.

[Rothman]

I will see if there is a Final RFP estimate online,

Look forward to it.

[Rothman]

Well, I did the least searching I can do.  You can see VDOT's comparison and how it differs from Beltway's in pages like this:

https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/projects/hampton-roads-district/i-64-gap-segment-c-widening/

You can see VDOT using different cost estimates than Beltway's at the bottom of the page in the cost tab.  So sure, savings, but not to the degree Beltway showed in his spreadsheet.

I'd go as far that I don't fully trust these numbers, either, given that DOTs strive to put their best public foot forward.

(public opinion emphasized)

[Beltway]

Well, I did the least searching I can do.  You can see VDOT's comparison and how it differs from Beltway's in pages like this:
https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/projects/hampton-roads-district/i-64-gap-segment-c-widening/
You can see VDOT using different cost estimates than Beltway's at the bottom of the page in the cost tab.  So sure, savings, but not to the degree Beltway showed in his spreadsheet.
I'd go as far that I don't fully trust these numbers, either, given that DOTs strive to put their best public foot forward.

"The $174 million design-build contract was awarded on April 16, 2024, to Allan Myers, in a joint-venture with Wagman" comes from that webpage.

Same figure here within one digit --
Allan Myers' latest project to kick off in the region is the I-64 Gap Segment C Widening Project. This $173 million design-build job got under way in spring 2024 as a joint venture with Wagman Heavy Civil.
https://www.allanmyers.com/allan-myers-plays-major-role-in-relieving-congestion-on-i-64-in-virginia/

As far as -- "Estimated cost of the project: $208 million" on the VDOT webpage, that matches the Construction estimate on the Initial Financial Plan.

Apparently did not include PE and RW, and if you add them you get the $231.2 million.

Those VDOT project webpages are maintained by communications specialists, not engineers. So yep they can have errors or inconsistent figures.

The original estimates are on an official Initial Finance Plan, so they can be taken as what the agency officially wanted to release to the public.

The I-64 Gap Segment A --
Work on this segment of the freeway is slated to finish in July 2027 at a cost of $210 million, far below VDOT's original estimate of $277.8 million.
https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/six-lane-i-64-superhighway-in-va-to-be-completed-between-richmond-hampton-roads/62990

I get the award amounts from what I see as the most accurate sources. I have a high degree of confidence in the numbers that I have listed, and they are fine for informal discussion purposes.

[Rothman]

Well, I did the least searching I can do.  You can see VDOT's comparison and how it differs from Beltway's in pages like this:
https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/projects/hampton-roads-district/i-64-gap-segment-c-widening/
You can see VDOT using different cost estimates than Beltway's at the bottom of the page in the cost tab.  So sure, savings, but not to the degree Beltway showed in his spreadsheet.
I'd go as far that I don't fully trust these numbers, either, given that DOTs strive to put their best public foot forward.

"The $174 million design-build contract was awarded on April 16, 2024, to Allan Myers, in a joint-venture with Wagman" comes from that webpage.

Same figure here within one digit --
Allan Myers' latest project to kick off in the region is the I-64 Gap Segment C Widening Project. This $173 million design-build job got under way in spring 2024 as a joint venture with Wagman Heavy Civil.
https://www.allanmyers.com/allan-myers-plays-major-role-in-relieving-congestion-on-i-64-in-virginia/

As far as -- "Estimated cost of the project: $208 million" on the VDOT webpage, that matches the Construction estimate on the Initial Financial Plan.

Apparently did not include PE and RW, and if you add them you get the $231.2 million.

Those VDOT project webpages are maintained by communications specialists, not engineers. So yep they can have errors or inconsistent figures.

The original estimates are on an official Initial Finance Plan, so they can be taken as what the agency officially wanted to release to the public.

The I-64 Gap Segment A --
Work on this segment of the freeway is slated to finish in July 2027 at a cost of $210 million, far below VDOT's original estimate of $277.8 million.
https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/six-lane-i-64-superhighway-in-va-to-be-completed-between-richmond-hampton-roads/62990

I get the award amounts from what I see as the most accurate sources. I have a high degree of confidence in the numbers that I have listed, and they are fine for informal discussion purposes.

And you're still insisting on comparing total cost to a construction award, which is inappropriate.  Design-build contracts do not include preliminary engineering.

Again, VDOT's numbers on their own webpage are more appropriate, since they know how design-build projects are phased, just like they're described in the initial finance plan and then they use apples-to-apples on their website, or at least something closer to it than your spreadsheet.  So, they don't exaggerate the savings like you're doing by tens of millions of dollars.

But, keep on Beltwaying, Beltway. ;D

[Beltway]

And you're still insisting on comparing total cost to a construction award, which is inappropriate.  Design-build contracts do not include preliminary engineering.

What VDOT calls PE on the Six Year Program includes design from location studies to preliminary design to final design.

The contractor per the Inititial Finance Plan will perform final design which is 70% of the design life cycle.

Again, VDOT's numbers on their own webpage are more appropriate, since they know how design-build projects are phased, just like they're described in the initial finance plan and then they use apples-to-apples on their website, or at least something closer to it than your spreadsheet.  So, they don't exaggerate the savings like you're doing by tens of millions of dollars.

$753 million estimate on the Initial Finance Plan, and $587 million in design-build awards.

It is what it is.

But, keep on Beltwaying, Beltway. ;D

You have replied to my original post 7 times and I have replied to each.

I see this for what it is and this discussion over not very important matters has gone on long enough.

[Rothman]

And you're still insisting on comparing total cost to a construction award, which is inappropriate.  Design-build contracts do not include preliminary engineering.

What VDOT calls PE on the Six Year Program includes design from location studies to preliminary design to final design.

The contractor per the Inititial Finance Plan will perform final design which is 70% of the design life cycle.

Again, VDOT's numbers on their own webpage are more appropriate, since they know how design-build projects are phased, just like they're described in the initial finance plan and then they use apples-to-apples on their website, or at least something closer to it than your spreadsheet.  So, they don't exaggerate the savings like you're doing by tens of millions of dollars.

$753 million estimate on the Initial Finance Plan, and $587 million in design-build awards.

It is what it is.

But, keep on Beltwaying, Beltway. ;D

You have replied to my original post 7 times and I have replied to each.

I see this for what it is and this discussion over not very important matters has gone on long enough.

You may have a misunderstanding of the project development process, even by VDOT's own schedules, which follow every other typical schedule anywhere:  Scoping, PD, ROW, DD, Construction.  Simple example below:

https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/media/vdotvirginiagov/doing-business/technical-guidance-and-support/location-and-design/project-managment/project-development-schedule-templates/T1_Road_NO_ROW_PE_UT_CN_acc09062024.pdf

Or even:

https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/media/vdotvirginiagov/doing-business/technical-guidance-and-support/location-and-design/project-managment/project-development-schedule-templates/T1_Road_BR_PE_UT_RW_CN.pdf

PE is simply scoping through design approval...In any matter, its cost should not be including in comparisons to awards of construction contracts since the awards of such do not include PE...there's no need for a construction contractor to pay for engineering already done...

As always, Beltway, you are free to be inaccurate or even incorrect.

[roadman65]

I saw from Google Satellite Imagery that US 17 from the NC State Line to US 17 Business in Chesapeake is now using a different alignment than what I drove in in 2001.


It seems when they widened the route to four lanes they built a new roadway to the east of the former narrow two 10 feet wide carriage way next to the canal and turned it into a hiking and recreation trail.

In addition the former US 17- VA 104 intersection is still there, but the stop signs were moved from the old US 17 to the former VA 104 roadway that now is a pair of dead ends.

[froggie]

I saw from Google Satellite Imagery that US 17 from the NC State Line to US 17 Business in Chesapeake is now using a different alignment than what I drove in in 2001.

That relignment predates the existence of this forum.

[Beltway]

I saw from Google Satellite Imagery that US 17 from the NC State Line to US 17 Business in Chesapeake is now using a different alignment than what I drove in in 2001.
It seems when they widened the route to four lanes they built a new roadway to the east of the former narrow two 10 feet wide carriage way next to the canal and turned it into a hiking and recreation trail.
In addition the former US 17- VA 104 intersection is still there, but the stop signs were moved from the old US 17 to the former VA 104 roadway that now is a pair of dead ends.

The Route US-17 relocation in the City of Chesapeake, Virginia, is a 11.6-mile-long highway project that was begun in March 2003, and opened to traffic on Friday, November 4, 2005. All construction on the project was completed by January, 2006. It traverses from the North Carolina state line to Dominion Boulevard. The project was administered by the Virginia Department of Transportation (VDOT). The original US-17 was a 2-lane highway that was built in the 1930s, just barely above the low-lying terrain, with lane widths and shoulder widths that were substandard by modern standards for a major rural arterial highway.  In 2001, this segment of US-17 carried about 10,000 vehicles daily with volumes projected to increase to 19,400 by 2020.

The pre-existing US-17 roadway on the southernmost 1.3 miles of the project was reconstructed to modern standards, to become the 2-lane southbound roadway, and a new northbound 2-lane roadway was built. The remaining 10.3 miles of the project is on a new location 4-lane alignment, to the east of the pre-existing US-17 highway. The median width is 42 feet, the traffic lanes are 12 feet wide, the paved right shoulders are 8 feet wide, and the paved left shoulders are 4 feet wide. Clear roadsides are typically 20 wide or wider. The highway is elevated 8 feet above the existing low-lying terrain. The highway is on a limited access right-of-way.

US-17 Relocation in City of Chesapeake
http://www.roadstothefuture.com/US17-VA-Chesapeake.html

[sprjus4]

I saw from Google Satellite Imagery that US 17 from the NC State Line to US 17 Business in Chesapeake is now using a different alignment than what I drove in in 2001.


It seems when they widened the route to four lanes they built a new roadway to the east of the former narrow two 10 feet wide carriage way next to the canal and turned it into a hiking and recreation trail.

In addition the former US 17- VA 104 intersection is still there, but the stop signs were moved from the old US 17 to the former VA 104 roadway that now is a pair of dead ends.

That alignment opened 20 years ago as the first phase of four-laning US-17 between the North Carolina state line and I-64.

What's more recent was the upgrading of US-17 north of there to a four lane divided highway, construction of three grade-separated urban interchanges at Cedar Rd, Bainbridge Blvd, and Great Bridge Blvd, and perhaps the biggest component of the project: two two-lane fixed span bridges with 95' of vertical clearance over the Elizabeth River. That project was completed in 2017 for around $345 million.

[Beltway]

I-64 GAP Widening photos, Segment A under construction, then Segment B not yet under construction, heading east.





I see several waste areas in the median. Used when cut excavation exceeds that of fill excavation.

[WillWeaverRVA]

(photos)

This is the segment between the New Kent/Henrico County line and Providence Forge, right?

[Beltway]

(photos)

This is the segment between the New Kent/Henrico County line and Providence Forge, right?

I-64 GAP Segment A
MP 204.9 (just west of the Bottoms Bridge exit) to
MP 215.6 (just east of the New Kent Courthouse/Providence Forge exit)

The ones not u.c. would be between there and Exit 220 VA-33.

[sprjus4]

I'm not sure how far you have driven east, but they have also began construction on Segment C extending between MM 224 and MM 233 just beyond Williamsburg. When I drove through there a couple of weeks ago, the lanes had been shifted with barriers put up on the left, but the trees are mostly still present in the median (not cleared yet).

Something I do appreciate with this project, at least with Segment A, is that while some trees are being cleared for the median widening, a lot of trees will remain. In the above Segment A photos, the trees still there will be staying I believe.

[Beltway]

I drove the entire I-64 between Richmond and Centerville area of VA Beach in both directions this weekend.

Concrete traffic barrier service is now installed on part of Segment C, with extensive clearing and grubbing underway.

Trees are being cleared to allow a new 12 foot lane, and 10 foot inside shoulder and (looks like) 30 feet of clear roadside from the roadway.

I would estimate that 21 miles of the 28 miles has a wide enough median to retain a treed median. Nearly all of that is in the 200 to 600 foot range.

The two  places where a spot with a very wide median is being cleared of trees all the way across, are waste areas for cut excavation that cannot be used in fills. The one in my photo has been steadily increased with about 40 feet of fill to date.

[Plutonic Panda]

Something I do appreciate with this project, at least with Segment A, is that while some trees are being cleared for the median widening, a lot of trees will remain. In the above Segment A photos, the trees still there will be staying I believe.

I completely agree, and I was gonna say the same thing you took the words out of my mouth.

[74/171FAN]

So I noticed tonight that the speed limit on VA 10 EB entering Hopewell has been reduced to 25.  I presume that it is now 25 west of VA 156 BUS at Winston Churchill Drive, but I had not looked into that yet.

I guess Hopewell's budget is not in good shape...

[sprjus4]

So I noticed tonight that the speed limit on VA 10 EB entering Hopewell has been reduced to 25.  I presume that it is now 25 west of VA 156 BUS at Winston Churchill Drive, but I had not looked into that yet.

I guess Hopewell's budget is not in good shape...

Maybe they'll divert some police off I-295 for once for this new speed area.

[Thing 342]

The lane closures and traffic shifts to allow for rehabilitation of the I-64 bridge over US-17 (and the vain, unnecessary Hampton Roads Express Lanes project) at Exit 258 have started: https://myemail.constantcontact.com/TRAFFIC-SHIFT-SCHEDULED-TO-BEGIN-ON-I-64-WEST-AT-J--CLYDE-MORRIS-BOULEVARD-AND-ON-I-64-EAST-AT-HAMPTON-ROADS-CENTER-PARKWAY.html?soid=1124277087205&aid=6uTgapROvoY



The configuration for the eastbound side is now quite dangerous, traffic for the loop ramps is forced onto the shoulder of the bridge with even less time to merge onto the freeway than before. Without the leftmost lane, this spot (which was a slowdown point but not a major traffic issue) now predictably jams up regularly during rush hour.

[74/171FAN]

Another item I noticed on VA 10 going on now when I was in VA over the weekend.

(For US 250, VA 240, and SR 680)  Construction began Monday on Crozet roundabout

[plain]

Another item I noticed on VA 10 going on now when I was in VA over the weekend.

Repairs? That thing should be replaced.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/KUCLq6v8zz9zCBRc7

[WillWeaverRVA]

Another item I noticed on VA 10 going on now when I was in VA over the weekend.

Repairs? That thing should be replaced.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/KUCLq6v8zz9zCBRc7

Yeeeeah. The fact that thing is still in use and is over a road that sees very heavy traffic absolutely frightens me.

[sprjus4]

VDOT is planning a $46.79 million project to replace the existing US-58 bridge over I-95 in Emporia with two new 2-lane bridges. The project will also reconfigure the interchange to remove the southern two loops (I-95 SB to US-58 EB, and US-58 EB to I-95 NB).

https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/projects/hampton-roads-district/route-58-bridge-over-i-95-replacement/

The project will begin in Fall 2027 and be completed in Fall 2030. Another major construction project on US-58, and more traffic signals being added to the major highway connecting I-95 and I-85 to Hampton Roads.