Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) complete collapse after large ship hits it

[Beltway]

When a post is framed as "angry" or "repetitive," ...
labeling my post as emotional or repetitive ...

Don't complain about our calling your posts repetitive, when you freely admit to being intentionally repetitive.

Your state of denial and continuing to argue is intentionally repetitive.

It takes two.

[NE2]

...to take a poo.

[Max Rockatansky]

Pooing is cool...

Except when it isn't, none is this poo is cool.

[kphoger]

It takes two.

...to take a poo.

[vdeane]

I've restated key metrics because they remain unaddressed.

People aren't obligated to respond to points you want them to respond to.  Often people won't when there's nothing to discuss, or if they don't seem to be relevant.  You keep saying "traffic has rerouted" as a point to why this isn't an emergency.  Well, what did you expect it to do?  Drive on the closed route and then end up in the bottom of the channel?  Continuing to restate the same point again and again isn't productive.

As for the AADT, that's not the only factor.  The Key Bridge served a different area, including a lot of industrial areas.  I'm guessing most of the traffic was local, including freight.  Comparing the number of lanes and AADT between the two tunnels to a bridge in the DC area and acting like that's the end-all be-all is disingenuous.

And we're suffering in Virginia because of it.

Also, we don't care about your grievance.  News flash: states tend to prioritize the needs of people in their own state over those of other states.  Look at North Carolina not widening I-95, or VDOT not planning its portion of I-87.

[kphoger]

People aren't obligated to respond to points you want them to respond to.

Golly, it sure seems like I've heard that somewhere before.  Oh yeah, that's right...

By posting in our forum, you automatically agree to the following:

What's not allowed:

Demanding that someone reply to your topic or post. Sorry, but you can't force people to be interested in commenting on what you said.

[algorerhythms]

Is there Maryland-Virginia beef I'm not familiar with?

There used to be, but a certain Mr. Lee didn't get his way (and lost his farm in Arlington along the way).

[sprjus4]

And we're suffering in Virginia because of it.

Also, we don't care about your grievance.  News flash: states tend to prioritize the needs of people in their own state over those of other states.  Look at North Carolina not widening I-95, or VDOT not planning its portion of I-87.

To be fair, the Maryland side has terrible traffic. It's only bad on the Virginia side approaching the state line because it reduces lanes.

Maryland is suffering more.

Both states refuse to construct a bypass for the area for long distance traffic, but that is for another discussion.

[PColumbus73]

And we're suffering in Virginia because of it.

Also, we don't care about your grievance.  News flash: states tend to prioritize the needs of people in their own state over those of other states.  Look at North Carolina not widening I-95, or VDOT not planning its portion of I-87.

To be fair, the Maryland side has terrible traffic. It's only bad on the Virginia side approaching the state line because it reduces lanes.

Maryland is suffering more.

Both states refuse to construct a bypass for the area for long distance traffic, but that is for another discussion.

...the siren song of I-366 beckons

[Beltway]

I've restated key metrics because they remain unaddressed.

People aren't obligated to respond to points you want them to respond to.  Often people won't when there's nothing to discuss, or if they don't seem to be relevant.  You keep saying "traffic has rerouted" as a point to why this isn't an emergency.  Well, what did you expect it to do?  Drive on the closed route and then end up in the bottom of the channel?  Continuing to restate the same point again and again isn't productive.

You aren't obligated to keep replying to my posts either. It takes two people to have an argument don't you know.

Likewise if you do reply to my post then I can decide whether or not to reply to it.

You think it is an emergency. I don't. Example: If the Mackinac Bridge collapsed that would indeed be an emergency, considering it is the only crossing between the two parts of Michigan and it is part of the mainline Interstate highway I-75 that connects Florida to Canada.

As for the AADT, that's not the only factor.  The Key Bridge served a different area, including a lot of industrial areas.  I'm guessing most of the traffic was local, including freight.  Comparing the number of lanes and AADT between the two tunnels to a bridge in the DC area and acting like that's the end-all be-all is disingenuous.

I picked the I-495 ALB as one example. It carries 8 times as much traffic and it also is a major interstate freight route, and it is part of connecting three other mainline Interstate highways to carry their traffic around Washington (I-66 to I-95 North and to I-270 to I-70; I-95 South to I-495 to I-270 to I-70).

It is not inaccurate to say that the I-495 ALB has 8 times the importance of the Outer Harbor Crossing -- and ALB has no realistic alternate.

And we're suffering in Virginia because of it.

News flash: states tend to prioritize the needs of people in their own state over those of other states.  Look at North Carolina not widening I-95, or VDOT not planning its portion of I-87.

Maryland and Virginia share a common border that passes thru a 6 million population metro.

It is critical for those two state to coordinate. They agreed back in the 1950s where the two I-495 Potomac River bridges would be located, so that the beltway could be built.

Virginia and Washington agreed where to place their joint river crossings.

In 2000 Virginia and Washington and Maryland coordinated to form a coordination committee to officially decide on what to do with the Woodrow Wilson Bridge and approaches.

That was the last serious effort by Maryland toward Washington regional traffic on both sides of the Potomac River.

North Carolina is widening parts of I-95, and they are far from any major Virginia metro, and they don't carry 235,000 AADT.

On I-87, Virginia US-17 is already a modern 4-lane expressway. North Carolina DOT's financial situation will probably push it back to 2050 or beyond. Long enough to where US-58 from I-95 to I-264 will likely incrementally be improved to a full freeway design by then.

To be fair, the Maryland side has terrible traffic. It's only bad on the Virginia side approaching the state line because it reduces lanes. Maryland is suffering more.

With the current I-495 West? Yes -- Virginia has the last 12-lane widening nearing completion -- and Maryland stays with 8 lane and their suffering is self-inflicted.

Both states refuse to construct a bypass for the area for long distance traffic, but that is for another discussion.

Virginia would participate -- the Western Transportation Corridor EIS study about 1995-2002 was the western outer bypass identified in the 1990 Washington Bypass Study. Maryland had no interest in building their part.

[Beltway]

Is there Maryland-Virginia beef I'm not familiar with?

There used to be, but a certain Mr. Lee didn't get his way (and lost his farm in Arlington along the way).

Maryland–Virginia tensions are seen in infrastructure delays, cultural divides, and political contrasts. Maryland's rapid Key Bridge response, juxtaposed with years of inaction on the American Legion Bridge, fuels Virginia's sense of neglect. Politically, Maryland leans liberal with strong urban cores, while Virginia balances liberal suburbs with conservative rural and small city regions, creating divergent priorities in regional planning.

Northern Virginia's economic clout often clashes with Maryland's centralized decision-making around Baltimore and Washington. These frictions, rooted in funding, representation, and identity, shape cross-border skepticism and reinforce a quiet rivalry that influences everything from transportation policy to forum debates. It's not war, but it's not nothing either.

[vdeane]

Virginia would participate -- the Western Transportation Corridor EIS study about 1995-2002 was the western outer bypass identified in the 1990 Washington Bypass Study. Maryland had no interest in building their part.

In theory.  But given the way I-73 has gone, I wouldn't treat it like a guarantee.

Maryland's rapid Key Bridge response, juxtaposed with years of inaction on the American Legion Bridge, fuels Virginia's sense of neglect.

States tend to move faster on replacing existing infrastructure that is unexpectedly unavailable than they are at building new stuff (especially in liberal areas, where building anything new is met with great skepticism by the usual suspects).  Plus action at the American Legion Bridge would have already been under construction if Larry Hogan had managed to push that project through before it got killed by NIMBYs.

[sprjus4]

Both states refuse to construct a bypass for the area for long distance traffic, but that is for another discussion.

Virginia would participate -- the Western Transportation Corridor EIS study about 1995-2002 was the western outer bypass identified in the 1990 Washington Bypass Study. Maryland had no interest in building their part.

1990 was 35 years ago. 2002 was 23 years ago. That's no sure indication VDOT is interested in a bypass these days.

They're not even interested in widening I-95.

VDOT could build a bypass between I-95 in Fredericksburg and I-66, but hasn't even seemed remotely interested. Heavy congested area it would bypass near I-95, along with a heavily traveled US-17 and US-29 corridor and provide relief.

Could be extended further north to I-70 in the future should Maryland participate.

VDOT hasn't even studied it in 20+ years, they're not interested either. It's both states, not just Maryland.

[Beltway]

Virginia would participate -- the Western Transportation Corridor EIS study about 1995-2002 was the western outer bypass identified in the 1990 Washington Bypass Study. Maryland had no interest in building their part.

In theory.  But given the way I-73 has gone, I wouldn't treat it like a guarantee.

I-73 is a very different situation. US-220 is a 4-lane highway and while the design is aging it still works well.

Per Google Maps Directions, 69 miles US-220 between the VA/NC border and I-81 in 76 minutes. That is an average of 55mph. They use the speed limits and the usual traffic.

39% of that US-220 length is built to freeway standards, and 2% to expressway standards. The rest is non-limited access. It would be nice to have I-73 there, but for the $3 billion cost is unlikely to happen.

The 4-lane rural corridor big money in that region now is going to completing Corridor Q US-460 (over $500 million) and US-58 Hillsville-Stuart (over $1 billion). Those are replacing segments of antiquated 2-lane highway on intrastate routes authorized for 4-lane high-speed highway decades ago (1965 for ADHS Corridor Q and 1989 for U.S. Route 58 Corridor Development Program).

Those should be complete by 2030-32 and then more focus on I-73 would seem in order.

Maryland's rapid Key Bridge response, juxtaposed with years of inaction on the American Legion Bridge, fuels Virginia's sense of neglect.

States tend to move faster on replacing existing infrastructure that is unexpectedly unavailable than they are at building new stuff (especially in liberal areas, where building anything new is met with great skepticism by the usual suspects).  Plus action at the American Legion Bridge would have already been under construction if Larry Hogan had managed to push that project through before it got killed by NIMBYs.

True, emergency replacement often moves faster than new builds. But that doesn't explain why Maryland has spent decades deferring action on the American Legion Bridge, despite its higher AADT and regional significance.

The Key Bridge collapse triggered immediate federal coordination, funding, and political urgency. Meanwhile, the ALB, arguably more critical to interstate commerce, was stalled by Maryland's own inertia long before NIMBYs entered the picture.

Hogan's plan wasn't killed by skepticism alone, it lacked institutional will. That's the asymmetry. Virginia keeps pushing; Maryland keeps deflecting. And that's why the sense of neglect persists.

The Washington Region Transportation Coalition issued a formal letter in March 2025 urging both states to prioritize the American Legion Bridge, citing its critical role and long-standing neglect compared to other projects.

https://www.bot.org/letter-of-advocacy-maryland-and-virginia-must-prioritize-reconstruction-on-american-legion-bridge/

Before the scamdemic, the American Legion Bridge was widely recognized as the DC region's worst traffic bottleneck. The Bridge carried a daily average of 250,000 vehicles and 375,000 people to jobs, housing, and commerce throughout our community. For comparison, the 2024 daily average ridership for the entire Metrorail system was 350,000 trips. Now that most public and private sector employees across the DC area have returned to the office, the number of people who rely on this bridge daily is growing, and if left unaddressed, this vital transportation corridor will continue to see further crippling congestion and delays. 

As the only bridge directly connecting the DC region's two largest jurisdictions – Fairfax and Montgomery Counties – the American Legion Bridge is critical to both the economic prosperity and security of the Nation's Capital. When a tanker truck overturned on the bridge in 2018, it created a 24-hour traffic nightmare that brought our entire community to a standstill. Now the Maryland Department of Transportation has confirmed that the Bridge will reach the end of its useful life by 2030 and must be replaced.   

[Beltway]

Both states refuse to construct a bypass for the area for long distance traffic, but that is for another discussion.

Virginia would participate -- the Western Transportation Corridor EIS study about 1995-2002 was the western outer bypass identified in the 1990 Washington Bypass Study. Maryland had no interest in building their part.

1990 was 35 years ago. 2002 was 23 years ago. That's no sure indication VDOT is interested in a bypass these days.
They're not even interested in widening I-95.

The recent completion of the I-95 local roadways and the express lanes in the Fredericksburg area has at least relieved and normalized 15 to 20 miles in that area.

VDOT could build a bypass between I-95 in Fredericksburg and I-66, but hasn't even seemed remotely interested. Heavy congested area it would bypass near I-95, along with a heavily traveled US-17 and US-29 corridor and provide relief.

That is the Western Transportation Corridor

Could be extended further north to I-70 in the future should Maryland participate.

That is the Western Transportation Corridor. Maryland needs to make a commitment first before any VA funding.

Virginia already has a group of "stealth outer beltways" out there, VA-234, VA-28, VA-123, VA-294, VA-286 US-17, US-29 – some ready to be extended into Maryland. All of these are on limited access right-of-way -- VA-286, VA-289, VA-234 and probably VA-294.

[sprjus4]

I-95 to I-66 is entirely in Virginia, and yet nothing has come of that.

[Beltway]

I-95 to I-66 is entirely in Virginia, and yet nothing has come of that.

That is a segment of the WTC -- assuming I-95 at Centerport Parkway to I-66 at Gainesville.

My opinion would be to build no WTC segments unless the whole thing is approved up to I-70 at Mount Airy. Interstate caliber freeways are expensive.

The "stealth outer beltways" for that would be US-17 to US-29, and VA-234 - I-95 to I-66, and Prince William Parkway and VA-28 - I-95 to I-66

[Plutonic Panda]

Man at this point I feel like you're going to ask to have that inscribed on Your Grave that you don't like this bridge at all. You're more obsessed than I am about the 710 tunnel out here in California. And trust me that's an issue that keeps me awake Some Nights.

[Max Rockatansky]

Hell, I don't care for the preferred corridor of I-11 being west of the White Tanks.  I've mentioned it in the I-11 threads but I didn't think that almost twenty pages was necessary to explain my opinion.

[LilianaUwU]

so when do we start discussing about actual proposals instead of this fictional nonsense

[Max Rockatansky]

so when do we start discussing about actual proposals instead of this fictional nonsense

Back on Page 24 before all the Black Swan Event talk.  I feel your summation of the ensuing chaos still speaks to the current state of this thread.

Let's think about that though.  Pretty much everything in the last 16 pages of this thread all the way back to April could/should be tossed. 

[LilianaUwU]

so when do we start discussing about actual proposals instead of this fictional nonsense

Back on Page 24 before all the Black Swan Event talk.  I feel your summation of the ensuing chaos still speaks to the current state of this thread.

I didn't expect that gif to have such lasting power.

[Max Rockatansky]

so when do we start discussing about actual proposals instead of this fictional nonsense

Back on Page 24 before all the Black Swan Event talk.  I feel your summation of the ensuing chaos still speaks to the current state of this thread.

I didn't expect that gif to have such lasting power.

They expect one of us in the meme brother!

[Plutonic Panda]

so when do we start discussing about actual proposals instead of this fictional nonsense

Back on Page 24 before all the Black Swan Event talk.  I feel your summation of the ensuing chaos still speaks to the current state of this thread.

I didn't expect that gif to have such lasting power.

They expect one of us in the meme brother!

You think that gives you power over him?

[Max Rockatansky]

so when do we start discussing about actual proposals instead of this fictional nonsense

Back on Page 24 before all the Black Swan Event talk.  I feel your summation of the ensuing chaos still speaks to the current state of this thread.

I didn't expect that gif to have such lasting power.

They expect one of us in the meme brother!

You think that gives you power over him?

He merely adopted the troll.  I was born to it, molded by it.