Madison Area

[Rothman]

Madison should adopt Houston-like zoning laws that permit the easy construction of highrises, of course without breaching the height limit. Then it should reconstruct the Beltline and I-39/90 and convert US 51, Pleasant View Road/McKee Road and US 12 north of Middleton into freeways. Of course, all of this extra space would probably spike the population and necessitate the introduction of a subway system...

The last time I saw this many bad ideas in a single paragraph, it involved FritzOwl

I'll just wait (assuming that I live long enough to see it) for the USSupremes to rule that a local zoning related development denial is a 'compensatible public taking' under 5A (yes, I sense that the current Court could very well do that), overturning a century-old decision to the contrary.  Also the (related?) trend towards 'desuburbanization' that I see starting within the next several decades.

Mike

I definitely think you're right that this is a plausible action by the current court. I find it ironic, however, that the political impetus for doing so is to favor a group who will find the likely outcome appalling—not only the bizarre results that Houston gets from lack of zoning laws, but it will also remove the primary tool NIMBYs use to obstruct development. That makes things like 15-minute cities and other forms of New Urbanism more attainable, as well as potentially resolving the California housing crisis, which would probably put that state back on the path to long-term population growth.

This seems a very optimistic view.  There could be a whole host of negative outcomes from such a ruling as well.  Could even go the other way and result in more single-family housing being built...

You aren't wrong, but having always lived somewhere where more single-family housing being built is the default anyway, I don't really see that particular outcome as being much of a change in the status quo.

Madison should adopt Houston-like zoning laws that permit the easy construction of highrises, of course without breaching the height limit. Then it should reconstruct the Beltline and I-39/90 and convert US 51, Pleasant View Road/McKee Road and US 12 north of Middleton into freeways. Of course, all of this extra space would probably spike the population and necessitate the introduction of a subway system...

The last time I saw this many bad ideas in a single paragraph, it involved FritzOwl

I'll just wait (assuming that I live long enough to see it) for the USSupremes to rule that a local zoning related development denial is a 'compensatible public taking' under 5A (yes, I sense that the current Court could very well do that), overturning a century-old decision to the contrary.  Also the (related?) trend towards 'desuburbanization' that I see starting within the next several decades.

Mike

I definitely think you're right that this is a plausible action by the current court. I find it ironic, however, that the political impetus for doing so is to favor a group who will find the likely outcome appalling—not only the bizarre results that Houston gets from lack of zoning laws, but it will also remove the primary tool NIMBYs use to obstruct development. That makes things like 15-minute cities and other forms of New Urbanism more attainable, as well as potentially resolving the California housing crisis, which would probably put that state back on the path to long-term population growth.

This seems a very optimistic view.  There could be a whole host of negative outcomes from such a ruling as well.  Could even go the other way and result in more single-family housing being built...

You aren't wrong, but having always lived somewhere where more single-family housing being built is the default anyway, I don't really see that particular outcome as being much of a change in the status quo.

...just accelerated.

[The Ghostbuster]

The reconstruction of John Nolen Dr. is beginning: https://www.cityofmadison.com/engineering/projects/john-nolen-drive.

[paulthemapguy]

There's an intersection of "Nolen" and "Olin".  lol.

[mgk920]

There's an intersection of "Nolen" and "Olin".  lol.

LOTS of kewl street names in and around Madison. 

Mike

[SEWIGuy]

There's an intersection of "Nolen" and "Olin".  lol.

LOTS of kewl street names in and around Madison. 

Mike

Yeah, Madison has only eight numbered streets - 1st through 8th. None of them are long, just a few blocks each, and they start at kind of a random point on the east side of town.

So every other street is named for something or someone.

[The Ghostbuster]

8th St. is easy to overlook since it is very short: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1050698,-89.3521924,301m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTAxNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D.

[SEWIGuy]

8th St. is easy to overlook since it is very short: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1050698,-89.3521924,301m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTAxNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D.

To be honest, I always thought it just went up to seven, but looked at a map to confirm before typing my post!

[mgk920]

8th St. is easy to overlook since it is very short: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1050698,-89.3521924,301m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTAxNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D.

To be honest, I always thought it just went up to seven, but looked at a map to confirm before typing my post!

I also note that the City of Madison spells out the street names of its eight 'numbered' streets.  That is identical to the 'numbered' streets here in Appleton, First through Eighth.  In Appleton, Second through Eighth Sts were in a previous 'Village' that was combined (by the state legislature) with two others to form the City of Appleton in 1857 and now run opposite from the current addressing grid on the city's southwest side. Present-day Wisconsin Ave (WI 96) was originally 'Second St', this because it was planned to be the city's 'second' main street.  'First Ave' was named as such because it is the first east-west grid street north of Northland Ave (now Outagamie County 'OO', then US 41) on the city's middle to far north side.

Mike

[hobsini2]

8th St. is easy to overlook since it is very short: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1050698,-89.3521924,301m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTAxNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D.

To be honest, I always thought it just went up to seven, but looked at a map to confirm before typing my post!

I also note that the City of Madison spells out the street names of its eight 'numbered' streets.  That is identical to the 'numbered' streets here in Appleton, First through Eighth.  In Appleton, Second through Eighth Sts were in a previous 'Village' that was combined (by the state legislature) with two others to form the City of Appleton in 1857 and now run opposite from the current addressing grid on the city's southwest side. Present-day Wisconsin Ave (WI 96) was originally 'Second St', this because it was planned to be the city's 'second' main street.  'First Ave' was named as such because it is the first east-west grid street north of Northland Ave (now Outagamie County 'OO', then US 41) on the city's middle to far north side.

Mike

I wouldn't say the numbered streets start at a random point. Looking southwest, 1st St is the 1st street east of the Yahara River. A lot of cities use rivers as a dividing spot or a starting point for a group of streets to have a theme to them.

[SEWIGuy]

8th St. is easy to overlook since it is very short: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1050698,-89.3521924,301m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTAxNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D.

To be honest, I always thought it just went up to seven, but looked at a map to confirm before typing my post!

I also note that the City of Madison spells out the street names of its eight 'numbered' streets.  That is identical to the 'numbered' streets here in Appleton, First through Eighth.  In Appleton, Second through Eighth Sts were in a previous 'Village' that was combined (by the state legislature) with two others to form the City of Appleton in 1857 and now run opposite from the current addressing grid on the city's southwest side. Present-day Wisconsin Ave (WI 96) was originally 'Second St', this because it was planned to be the city's 'second' main street.  'First Ave' was named as such because it is the first east-west grid street north of Northland Ave (now Outagamie County 'OO', then US 41) on the city's middle to far north side.

Mike

I wouldn't say the numbered streets start at a random point. Looking southwest, 1st St is the 1st street east of the Yahara River. A lot of cities use rivers as a dividing spot or a starting point for a group of streets to have a theme to them.

You are probably right that they started it there intentionally, but the Yahara River isn't exactly a major crossing or anything.

[WisJohn]

8th St. is easy to overlook since it is very short: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1050698,-89.3521924,301m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTAxNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D.

Looks like, according to Google, there are only two houses with Eighth Street addresses.

[tchafe1978]

https://www.wmtv15news.com/2025/11/21/beltline-could-see-big-changes-after-wisconsin-department-transportation-study/

I'll believe it when I see it. Seems the Beltline could always use improvements but there is never a permanent fix.

[Great Lakes Roads]

https://www.wmtv15news.com/2025/11/21/beltline-could-see-big-changes-after-wisconsin-department-transportation-study/

I'll believe it when I see it. Seems the Beltline could always use improvements but there is never a permanent fix.

Here are the options on improving the Beltline from WisDOT's PEL study:
Option 1- Extend the Flex-Lane westward from Verona Road to Parmenter Street
Option 2- Add a GP lane in each direction through the whole corridor

[SEWIGuy]

IMO I think they should shut down the Seminole Highway exit, turn Todd Drive into a diamond interchange, and get Verona Road to be free flowing. That IMO would stop a lot of the merging, weaving and stopping that occurs there.

[The Ghostbuster]

I would pick both options 1 and 2 to improve the Beltline. As to SEWIGuy's suggestion, while I would support a free-flowing Verona Rd., I would maintain the Seminole Highway interchange and combine it with the Verona Rd. interchange similar to the Interstate 39/90/94 interchange at US 151 and High Crossing Blvd: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1352904,-89.2977515,1710m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTExNy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D. I doubt the Todd Drive interchange will be modified from its current configuration.

[SEWIGuy]

I would pick both options 1 and 2 to improve the Beltline. As to SEWIGuy's suggestion, while I would support a free-flowing Verona Rd., I would maintain the Seminole Highway interchange and combine it with the Verona Rd. interchange similar to the Interstate 39/90/94 interchange at US 151 and High Crossing Blvd: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1352904,-89.2977515,1710m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTExNy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D. I doubt the Todd Drive interchange will be modified from its current configuration.

I think your solution for Seminole would be overdone. High Crossing has a bunch of businesses on either side of the exit so it makes sense. Seminole just drops you into a residential neighborhood on one side, and on the other is access to a frontage road that can easily be accessed off of either Midvale or Todd Blvd.

[hobsini2]

I would pick both options 1 and 2 to improve the Beltline. As to SEWIGuy's suggestion, while I would support a free-flowing Verona Rd., I would maintain the Seminole Highway interchange and combine it with the Verona Rd. interchange similar to the Interstate 39/90/94 interchange at US 151 and High Crossing Blvd: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1352904,-89.2977515,1710m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTExNy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D. I doubt the Todd Drive interchange will be modified from its current configuration.

I think your solution for Seminole would be overdone. High Crossing has a bunch of businesses on either side of the exit so it makes sense. Seminole just drops you into a residential neighborhood on one side, and on the other is access to a frontage road that can easily be accessed off of either Midvale or Todd Blvd.

That is one problem with the Beltline. Too many interchanges. If it was up to me, from I-39/90 westward, there would only be interchanges at:
US 51 Stoughton Rd
Hwy BW W Broadway / South Towne Dr
John Nolen Dr
US 14 EAST/151 NORTH Park St
Todd Dr
US 18 WEST/151 SOUTH Verona Rd / Midvale Blvd
Gammon Rd
Hwy S Mineral Point Rd
Old Sauk Rd
US 14 WEST University Ave (Paramenter does not need a direct ramp)
Hwy M Airport Rd / Century Ave
Hwy K (Extend Paramenter north to Hwy K)

[The Ghostbuster]

I agree there are likely too many interchanges. I'm not sure if any could be removed without significant opposition.

[SEWIGuy]

Yeah, I think Seminole could be removed and it would be fine. Rimrock? I think you see too much event traffic at the Colesium and I am sure the hotels at that interchange wouldn't be thrilled.

Yes, if it were designed from scratch, you would just upgrade the John Nolen exit, but that's not where we are.

[hobsini2]

Yeah, I think Seminole could be removed and it would be fine. Rimrock? I think you see too much event traffic at the Colesium and I am sure the hotels at that interchange wouldn't be thrilled.

Yes, if it were designed from scratch, you would just upgrade the John Nolen exit, but that's not where we are.

I think you could have a roundabout with Rimrock and Nolen instead of a signal while using the existing trumpet of Nolen. The Rimrock interchange is not as important.

[SEWIGuy]

Yeah, I think Seminole could be removed and it would be fine. Rimrock? I think you see too much event traffic at the Colesium and I am sure the hotels at that interchange wouldn't be thrilled.

Yes, if it were designed from scratch, you would just upgrade the John Nolen exit, but that's not where we are.

I think you could have a roundabout with Rimrock and Nolen instead of a signal while using the existing trumpet of Nolen. The Rimrock interchange is not as important.

Have you exited an event with a decent crowd at the Coliseum? I like roundabouts in general, but one there with that traffic, and no ability to get on the Beltline from Rimrock would be a problem.

[mgk920]

Again, if those stupid lakes weren't in the way . . .

Basically, how much WisDOT money do you want to spend on it?  With enough money, one could build a very useful 'local/express' lane setup on the Beltline.  But will the rest of the state go for it?

Mike

[SEWIGuy]

Again, if those stupid lakes weren't in the way . . .

Basically, how much WisDOT money do you want to spend on it?  With enough money, one could build a very useful 'local/express' lane setup on the Beltline.  But will the rest of the state go for it?

Do they get veto power or something? Does the rest of the state get to "go for" I-41 expansion between Appleton and De Pere? I-94 expansion in Milwaukee?

The dollars should go where they are needed the most.

[hobsini2]

Yeah, I think Seminole could be removed and it would be fine. Rimrock? I think you see too much event traffic at the Colesium and I am sure the hotels at that interchange wouldn't be thrilled.

Yes, if it were designed from scratch, you would just upgrade the John Nolen exit, but that's not where we are.

I think you could have a roundabout with Rimrock and Nolen instead of a signal while using the existing trumpet of Nolen. The Rimrock interchange is not as important.

Have you exited an event with a decent crowd at the Coliseum? I like roundabouts in general, but one there with that traffic, and no ability to get on the Beltline from Rimrock would be a problem.

Sorry but I have not been to the Coliseum. Only Camp Randall.

[mgk920]

Yeah, I think Seminole could be removed and it would be fine. Rimrock? I think you see too much event traffic at the Colesium and I am sure the hotels at that interchange wouldn't be thrilled.

Yes, if it were designed from scratch, you would just upgrade the John Nolen exit, but that's not where we are.

I think you could have a roundabout with Rimrock and Nolen instead of a signal while using the existing trumpet of Nolen. The Rimrock interchange is not as important.

Have you exited an event with a decent crowd at the Coliseum? I like roundabouts in general, but one there with that traffic, and no ability to get on the Beltline from Rimrock would be a problem.

Sorry but I have not been to the Coliseum. Only Camp Ran

Yeah, I think Seminole could be removed and it would be fine. Rimrock? I think you see too much event traffic at the Colesium and I am sure the hotels at that interchange wouldn't be thrilled.

Yes, if it were designed from scratch, you would just upgrade the John Nolen exit, but that's not where we are.

I think you could have a roundabout with Rimrock and Nolen instead of a signal while using the existing trumpet of Nolen. The Rimrock interchange is not as important.

Have you exited an event with a decent crowd at the Coliseum? I like roundabouts in general, but one there with that traffic, and no ability to get on the Beltline from Rimrock would be a problem.

Sorry but I have not been to the Coliseum. Only Camp Randall.

Isn't the Dane County Coliseum pretty much going bye-bye?.

Mike