Francis Scott Key Bridge thread 2.0

[kphoger]

Scott ... was ... close to the bridge ... which could have ... shielded ... forces from ... enlarged dolphins ... in ... containerships. That is why many new crossings (Corpus Christi Harbor Bridge, I‑710 Long Beach International Gateway Bridge, Gordie Howe International Bridge, Hampton Roads tunnels) avoid placing piers in navigable channels altogether.

Hey look, another post with zero news in it.

Allow me to quote a well-known viatologist:

yawn

[Beltway]

I will wait awhile to see if any more fish have the guts to get into the barrel

[Max Rockatansky]

Scott ... was ... close to the bridge ... which could have ... shielded ... forces from ... enlarged dolphins ... in ... containerships. That is why many new crossings (Corpus Christi Harbor Bridge, I‑710 Long Beach International Gateway Bridge, Gordie Howe International Bridge, Hampton Roads tunnels) avoid placing piers in navigable channels altogether.

Hey look, another post with zero news in it.

Allow me to quote a well-known viatologist:

yawn

The Long Beach International Gateway technically isn't Interstate, even it is signed as such.  The FHWA definition begins at Ocean Boulevard in Long Beach.  For a while there was three segments of CA 710 but now there is only two after the Pasadena stub was relinquished. 

https://www.gribblenation.org/2023/08/interstate-710.html?m=1

Ironically the Long Beach International Gateway is the subject of tomorrow morning's Thanksgiving Day post on our Facebook page.  I took a batch of new photos after getting off the boat from Avalon at Berths 94-95 in San Pedro.

[Beltway]

The Long Beach International Gateway technically isn't Interstate, even it is signed as such.  The FHWA definition begins at Ocean Boulevard in Long Beach.  For a while there was three segments of CA 710 but now there is only two after the Pasadena stub was relinquished. 
https://www.gribblenation.org/2023/08/interstate-710.html?m=1
Ironically the Long Beach International Gateway is the subject of tomorrow morning's Thanksgiving Day post on our Facebook page.  I took a batch of new photos after getting off the boat from Avalon at Berths 94-95 in San Pedro.

I-710 itself was not part of the original 1956 or 1968 Interstate Highway System. It was overlayed on existing state route freeways. I did just go out there and see that LBIG is signed as I-710.

"The first section of the Long Beach Freeway opened in 1952; the last in 1970.  Originally numbered CA 15, it was renumbered CA 7 in 1964 when work on I-15 began. In September 1983 it was approved as a non-chargeable interstate, and on May 30, 1984, AASHTO approved the I-710 numbering. In October 1984, the FHWA approved another 1.6 miles from CA 1 to Ocean Blvd. in Long Beach. "

https://www.kurumi.com/roads/3di/i710.html

[Scott5114]

https://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip-3466321503-dolphin-soars-above-large-bridge-showcasing-incredible

That's incredible. What situation would possibly merit the use of that stock video badly enough to spend $79 on it?

[GaryV]

https://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip-3466321503-dolphin-soars-above-large-bridge-showcasing-incredible

That's incredible. What situation would possibly merit the use of that stock video badly enough to spend $79 on it?

If the Federal Government is paying through an emergency declaration?

[vdeane]

Beltway's been going on about this so long that when I saw an article about ship strikes in my Google News feed, I clicked on it thinking it was about this bridge.  It turned out to have nothing to do with bridges at all.  Or Maryland, for that matter.

[Beltway]

Hey look, another post with zero news in it.

Calling this "zero news" misses the point and the commode, you need to use the bath tub next time you need to blow your groceries. It is hard to miss a bath tub.

The Dali collapse changed the baseline for estuary crossings. Since then, every major U.S. shipping‑channel project has avoided deepwater piers altogether -- Corpus Christi Harbor Bridge, Gordie Howe International Bridge, I‑710 Long Beach, HRBT Expansion, CBBT tunnels. MDTA's choice to replicate a pier‑in‑channel design makes the Key Bridge rebuild scheme a legacy outlier in the post‑Dali era. That's not just an engineering quibble; it's a stewardship issue. If we're spending billions in 100% federal funds, why replicate the very vulnerability that triggered the collapse?

True, those projects broke ground before the Dali collapse -- but that's the point. Even before March 2024, the design consensus was already shifting away from deepwater piers in shipping lanes. Corpus Christi, Gordie Howe, I‑710, HRBT, CBBT all avoided mid‑channel piers. Post‑Dali, that precedent is ironclad. Billions in federal funds shouldn't buy yesterday's vulnerabilities, and should not be allocated in the first place.

And the liability trail is clear: the NTSB's reports already documented MDTA's failure to conduct a vulnerability assessment as a contributing factor in the collapse. That record makes any repeat pier‑in‑channel design indefensible. Billions in federal funds shouldn't buy yesterday's vulnerabilities -- they should buy resilience.

Either get on board with resilience, or get off the train of denial.

[Max Rockatansky]

The Long Beach International Gateway technically isn't Interstate, even it is signed as such.  The FHWA definition begins at Ocean Boulevard in Long Beach.  For a while there was three segments of CA 710 but now there is only two after the Pasadena stub was relinquished. 
https://www.gribblenation.org/2023/08/interstate-710.html?m=1
Ironically the Long Beach International Gateway is the subject of tomorrow morning's Thanksgiving Day post on our Facebook page.  I took a batch of new photos after getting off the boat from Avalon at Berths 94-95 in San Pedro.

I-710 itself was not part of the original 1956 or 1968 Interstate Highway System. It was overlayed on existing state route freeways. I did just go out there and see that LBIG is signed as I-710.

"The first section of the Long Beach Freeway opened in 1952; the last in 1970.  Originally numbered CA 15, it was renumbered CA 7 in 1964 when work on I-15 began. In September 1983 it was approved as a non-chargeable interstate, and on May 30, 1984, AASHTO approved the I-710 numbering. In October 1984, the FHWA approved another 1.6 miles from CA 1 to Ocean Blvd. in Long Beach. "

https://www.kurumi.com/roads/3di/i710.html

Not to dismiss anything Kurumi has done, by link a page which was last updated in 2006?  So much has happened with 710 since 2006.

[kphoger]

Calling this "zero news" misses the point ...

Oh, I know full well that your point was not to provide any actual updates.  I know full well that your point was only to keep beating your dead horse.  And that's my point.  You just keep saying the same basic thing every few days in different words.  The rest of us keep clicking on the thread each time, hoping to read something that's an actual update instead of your usual blather.

... and the commode, you need to use the bath tub next time you need to blow your groceries. It is hard to miss a bath tub.

Like the old joke:

— Do you know the difference between toilet paper and a shower curtain?
— No ... ?
— SO YOU'RE THE ONE!

The Dali collapse changed ... legacy ... stewardship ... precedent ...

Either get on board ... or get off the train of denial.

Oh, I'm totally on board with legacy stewardship.  The capsule stands.

[Beltway]

I-710 itself was not part of the original 1956 or 1968 Interstate Highway System. It was overlayed on existing state route freeways. I did just go out there and see that LBIG is signed as I-710.
"The first section of the Long Beach Freeway opened in 1952; the last in 1970.  Originally numbered CA 15, it was renumbered CA 7 in 1964 when work on I-15 began. In September 1983 it was approved as a non-chargeable interstate, and on May 30, 1984, AASHTO approved the I-710 numbering. In October 1984, the FHWA approved another 1.6 miles from CA 1 to Ocean Blvd. in Long Beach. "
https://www.kurumi.com/roads/3di/i710.html

Not to dismiss anything Kurumi has done, by link a page which was last updated in 2006?  So much has happened with 710 since 2006.

Since its origin came up, I just wanted to tie down in my mind those origins in the 1980s. Then I figured others might want to see it as well.

[Beltway]

Calling this "zero news" misses the point ...

Oh, I know full well that your point was not to provide any actual updates.  I know full well that your point was only to keep beating your dead horse.  And that's my point.  You just keep saying the same basic thing every few days in different words.  The rest of us keep clicking on the thread each time, hoping to read something that's an actual update instead of your usual blather.

That's baloney any way you slice it.

The MDTA news was just released on Nov. 17th about revised financial forecast to include the updated cost estimate range to $4.3-$5.2 billion with an anticipated open-to-traffic date in late 2030. The original was $1.7-$1.9 billion with an estimated open date of late 2028.

That is HUGE news and impacts everything and should be a major topic of discussion. If you don't want to discuss it that's fine just don't play Forum Sheriff.

Likewise the NTSB has had two major news releases in the last few weeks and the final report is due out in early December.

The NTSB Probable Cause was just released and I posted that a couple days ago.

— SO YOU'RE THE ONE!

Your horses aren't dead . . . they are undead ... and annoying . . . and they stink.

[Max Rockatansky]

I-710 itself was not part of the original 1956 or 1968 Interstate Highway System. It was overlayed on existing state route freeways. I did just go out there and see that LBIG is signed as I-710.
"The first section of the Long Beach Freeway opened in 1952; the last in 1970.  Originally numbered CA 15, it was renumbered CA 7 in 1964 when work on I-15 began. In September 1983 it was approved as a non-chargeable interstate, and on May 30, 1984, AASHTO approved the I-710 numbering. In October 1984, the FHWA approved another 1.6 miles from CA 1 to Ocean Blvd. in Long Beach. "
https://www.kurumi.com/roads/3di/i710.html

Not to dismiss anything Kurumi has done, by link a page which was last updated in 2006?  So much has happened with 710 since 2006.

Since its origin came up, I just wanted to tie down in my mind those origins in the 1980s. Then I figured others might want to see it as well.

Considering one the sources Kurumi used was the CAhighways Route 710 page why no love for said site?  If you want to talk about legacy anything in the road enthusiast hobby then Daniel is the guy.  His page (started in 1996) is always embedded as a reference in anything I do related to the state highway system in California.

https://www.cahighways.org/ROUTE710.html

[Beltway]

Considering one the sources Kurumi used was the CAhighways Route 710 page why no love for said site?  If you want to talk about legacy anything in the road enthusiast hobby then Daniel is the guy.  His page (started in 1996) is always embedded as a reference in anything I do related to the state highway system in California.
https://www.cahighways.org/ROUTE710.html

I wouldn't exclude anyone. There are more roads sites than I can keep track of.

Kurumi is a site that I contributed to about 10 articles on in 1997 before I started my site.

[Scott5114]

Calling this "zero news" misses the point and the commode, you need to use the bath tub next time you need to blow your groceries. It is hard to miss a bath tub.

Maybe, but it's harder to get everything to go down the drain that way compared to the commode. My drain has one of those cross shaped things over top of it that blown groceries might be hung up on. I also have a hair screen over the drain in the tub to prevent the drain pipe from getting clogged, and if that weren't removed before blowing groceries, it would be next to impossible to get them drained away. Having blown a grocery or two in my day, I've found it is not the sort of activity one has a lot of time to make preparations for.

All in all, I prefer to use the toilet, and if I have to do some cleanup afterward, I would rather just mop the floor than have to deal with cleaning the tub.

[NE2]

Personally I prefer to eat the booty like groceries, but maybe that's the dolphin DNA talking.

[vdeane]

That is HUGE news and impacts everything and should be a major topic of discussion. If you don't want to discuss it that's fine just don't play Forum Sheriff.

Projects get delayed and have cost overruns all the time.  For those of us in the Northeast, it would have been "HUGE" if this didn't happen.

But you know what the delays would be if they did as you suggest?  See the video below for the answer!

We'd probably be looking at an opening in 2040 at the earliest if they had to do a full EIS, and by that point, who knows how much costs will inflate.

[Beltway]

That is HUGE news and impacts everything and should be a major topic of discussion. If you don't want to discuss it that's fine just don't play Forum Sheriff.

Projects get delayed and have cost overruns all the time.  For those of us in the Northeast, it would have been "HUGE" if this didn't happen.
But you know what the delays would be if they did as you suggest?  See the video below for the We'd probably be looking at an opening in 2040 at the earliest if they had to do a full EIS, and by that point, who knows how much costs will inflate.

Sorry, but my working with highways involves both the Northeast (PennDOT) and the pre-NEPA days. Major projects need to go thru a full EIS.

It is the lack of alternatives analysis and lack of competition that blew Kiewit's price so high. Kiewit has them over a barrel.

[Rothman]

That is HUGE news and impacts everything and should be a major topic of discussion. If you don't want to discuss it that's fine just don't play Forum Sheriff.

Projects get delayed and have cost overruns all the time.  For those of us in the Northeast, it would have been "HUGE" if this didn't happen.
But you know what the delays would be if they did as you suggest?  See the video below for the We'd probably be looking at an opening in 2040 at the earliest if they had to do a full EIS, and by that point, who knows how much costs will inflate.

Sorry, but my working with highways involves both the Northeast (PennDOT) and the pre-NEPA days. Major projects need to go thru a full EIS.

It is the lack of alternatives analysis and lack of competition that blew Kiewit's price so high. Kiewit has them over a barrel.

Evidence of Beltway's lack of experience with project development continues to pile up.

[Beltway]

Evidence of Beltway's lack of experience with project development continues to pile up.

Why don't you quit while you are ahead?

This project is an absolute fiasco. $5.2 billion for a regional relief bridge that carried 32,000 AADT, and 12 lanes of harbor freeway crossings are 4 miles away. Almost 3 times the cost estimate preceding it. No transparency from the highway agency. A ridiculous concrete donut being touted as "massive pier protection."

What ever this project is it is not worth $5.2 billion of federal largesse.

[Rothman]

Evidence of Beltway's lack of experience with project development continues to pile up.

Why don't you quit while you are ahead?

This project is an absolute fiasco. $5.2 billion for a regional relief bridge that carried 32,000 AADT and 12 lanes of harbor freeway crossings are 4 miles away. Almost 3 times the estimate preceding it.

What ever this project is it is not worth $5.2 billion of federal largesse.

I disagree and I suspect the project will plow ahead despite your tilting against windmills.

Got a Thanksgiving dinner now with family.  Hope you're having a fun holiday, too!

[vdeane]

Evidence of Beltway's lack of experience with project development continues to pile up.

Beltway reminds me of those Design engineers who have been around for 30 years and don't bother keeping up with changes in how things work.

(personal opinion)

[Beltway]

Evidence of Beltway's lack of experience with project development continues to pile up.

Beltway reminds me of those Design engineers who have been around for 30 years and don't bother keeping up with changes in how things work.
(personal opinion)

Are you and Rothman engineering program managers who have 20+ years of experience managing transportation planners and highway design engineers and their projects? Is that how you know so much?

I am not but I can use other successful state-of-the-art bridge and tunnel projects as a benchmark and knowledge base for how to build in the 2020s.

[Rothman]

Evidence of Beltway's lack of experience with project development continues to pile up.

Beltway reminds me of those Design engineers who have been around for 30 years and don't bother keeping up with changes in how things work.
(personal opinion)

Are you and Rothman engineering program managers who have 20+ years of experience managing transportation planners and highway design engineers and their projects? Is that how you know so much?

I am not but I can use other successful state-of-the-art bridge and tunnel projects as a benchmark and knowledge base for how to build in the 2020s.

What a bizarre dichotomy.

[Beltway]

I need to come up with a nickname for this poster.

Nickname ideas
- Captain Compliance - always waving the DOT rulebook.
- Manual Man - as if every post is a spec sheet citation.
- Mr. 19,515 - a nod to his post count obsession.
- The Forum Foreman - barking orders like he's running a job site.
- Spec Sheet Sage - convinced every detail must be benchmarked against a manual.
- Bridge Troll - lurking under every thread, ready to pounce.
- DOT Oracle - speaks as if his word is policy.
- The Dichotomy Dude - riffing off that "bizarre dichotomy" line.