Oklahoma

[TBKS1]

A reminder that when I spoke to OTA, they said the number was FHWA's choice. 

And you believed them?

While I'm not here to judge ODOT, or ARDOT for the work that they do, I have asked ARDOT about why there's a lot of duplicated state highway numbers in Arkansas, and they also told me basically that it was the FHWA that was responsible for that (which it clearly wasn't for Arkansas, and I know that now), and this seems very similar to that. I'm not here to say they're flat out wrong, but I really don't know how believable that is.

(deleted and re-posted due to a new message being written before I could send it lol)

[Rothman]

A reminder that when I spoke to OTA, they said the number was FHWA's choice. 

And you believed them?

<.<

>.>

No comment.

[TBKS1]

What political considerations could possibly apply here? Are you suggesting it's not I-340 because Kevin Stitt cashed a fat fucking check from the Oklahoma Union of Cutout Reflective Vinyl Number 3 Manufacturers?

The "I-343" numbering choice sure as hell isn't based on anything logical.

If they had gone with existing numbering conventions that apply to all 3-digit Interstate routes expect for I-238 they would have picked I-340 or maybe I-342, assuming I-42 gets signed in Oklahoma sometime soon.

As stated before I-238 isn't a random number, but a continuation of an existing state highway designation. "I-351" could have filled the bill if OTA wanted to copy the I-238 example. They didn't do that. They just pulled "I-343" out of their asses. Some "boss" has some sentimental obsession with that number and insisted on using it even though the designation makes not a damned bit of sense.

So, the I-343 numbering choice could indeed be called political if somebody like the Governor or another senior lawmaker insisted on the designation. I think it's more likely some douchebag politician made the numbering choice rather than an official within the OTA.

This wouldn't be the first time this has happened, Interstate 99 is the sort of penultimate example of that. I'm not familiar enough with Oklahoma politics to know who would've been the person to choose that designation at all, but I wouldn't put it past them.

The other thing, this does remind me a lot of the US 78 extension about two years ago, and US 78 is actually co-signed with I-40/55 in West Memphis, but US 61, 64, 70, and 79 are not. ARDOT is very proud of that extension and they want to promote it as much as they can, and I'd even say I've been more fed up with how much they've promoted the route extension over the extension itself. I expect I-343 to be the same way.

Also something kinda interesting about I-644 being approved, that will be the highest numbered route in the entire state once that's signed.

[Bobby5280]

This wouldn't be the first time this has happened, Interstate 99 is the sort of penultimate example of that. I'm not familiar enough with Oklahoma politics to know who would've been the person to choose that designation at all, but I wouldn't put it past them.

I remember lots of road geeks online being pretty outraged when Bud Shuster pushed through the I-99 nonsense. The designation doesn't fit the grid. A couple other locations along the East Coast could have been better suited for a future I-99.

Still, I-99 is a 2-digit stand-alone route whether it fits the grid or not. That's the difference between it and I-343. It's possible for I-99 to act as a parent route and spawn I-x99 routes.

Other odd designations have been proposed but haven't become a reality, such as an I-3 route in Georgia. It's a generally accepted numbering convention of the Interstate highway system that 3-digit routes are child routes from a 1-digit or 2-digit parent Interstate route. If we start having random 3-digit designations, like this I-343 bullshit, it messes up that numbering system.

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't see it going anywhere, but a bill has been filed in cross pledging on the turnpikes in Oklahoma:

https://kfor.com/news/oklahoma-legislature/lawmaker-moves-to-end-cross-pledging-revenue-between-oklahoma-turnpikes/

[kphoger]

If we start having random 3-digit designations ... it messes up that numbering system.

[I-55]

This wouldn't be the first time this has happened, Interstate 99 is the sort of penultimate example of that. I'm not familiar enough with Oklahoma politics to know who would've been the person to choose that designation at all, but I wouldn't put it past them.

I remember lots of road geeks online being pretty outraged when Bud Shuster pushed through the I-99 nonsense. The designation doesn't fit the grid. A couple other locations along the East Coast could have been better suited for a future I-99.

Still, I-99 is a 2-digit stand-alone route whether it fits the grid or not. That's the difference between it and I-343. It's possible for I-99 to act as a parent route and spawn I-x99 routes.

Other odd designations have been proposed but haven't become a reality, such as an I-3 route in Georgia. It's a generally accepted numbering convention of the Interstate highway system that 3-digit routes are child routes from a 1-digit or 2-digit parent Interstate route. If we start having random 3-digit designations, like this I-343 bullshit, it messes up that numbering system.

The other difference I can think of between I-99 and I-343 is the availability of numbers. When I-99 was signed, the next smallest available N/S number was (and still is) I-67. Anything smaller would fit the grid in central time. There are multiple corridors where I-67 would fit the grid  and make sense (Indy-Grand Rapids or Montgomery-Panama City) so I'm fine with I-99 being the 2di designation. One could argue I-83 would make more sense north of Williamsport and I-99 south of I-80 could be an x80, x70, or x76, but that's different discussion.

As for I-343, there are probably 9 "preferred" numbers (odd x44's or x40's) and 13 other "logical" numbers (even x40's, I-844, or any I-x42), none of which include I-x43's. My personal pick is I-340 because it spurs from I-40 into Tulsa, fits the OTA "I-3xx" scheme (although it's only possible for them to do that 3 times), doesn't exist anywhere else, and I-40 is the only 2di it's guaranteed to intersect. That's 4 justifications for its number. I-99, I-238, and I-97 have more justification than I-343 ever will.

[The Ghostbuster]

Maybe they could forget about giving the Muskogee Turnpike an Interstate designation and just leave it OK 351. That would make more sense than giving it an Interstate 343 designation. Unfortunately, it is probably too late for that.

[TBKS1]

To be honest I truly don't know how many people will actually (verbally) refer to the route as "Interstate 343". I mean once I-57 was designated here, it took me about a month or so after it was signed for me to inadvertently start calling it as such, but I also live pretty much right off of it. On the flip side, I'm still not used to US 78 being extended and I still call it as "Highway 18". OK 351 or I-343 will still be referred to as the Muskogee Turnpike regardless of it's number designation, and its designation as OK 351 was also very recent, I don't even think it was 10 years ago when it was first signed as such.

[Rothman]

So...I originally called OTA, who blamed FHWA for the number.  Got an e-mail from FHWA which now blames ODOT for the I-343 number.

I needed a little fun this week...We'll see what ODOT says now...

[okroads]

To be honest I truly don't know how many people will actually (verbally) refer to the route as "Interstate 343". I mean once I-57 was designated here, it took me about a month or so after it was signed for me to inadvertently start calling it as such, but I also live pretty much right off of it. On the flip side, I'm still not used to US 78 being extended and I still call it as "Highway 18". OK 351 or I-343 will still be referred to as the Muskogee Turnpike regardless of it's number designation, and its designation as OK 351 was also very recent, I don't even think it was 10 years ago when it was first signed as such.

Future I-343 will probably still be called the Muskogee Turnpike, like I-344 is still called the Kilpatrick Turnpike in OKC (I rarely ever see it called I-344 and it's been signed for over a year).

[ElishaGOtis]

So...I originally called OTA, who blamed FHWA for the number.  Got an e-mail from FHWA which now blames ODOT for the I-343 number.

I needed a little fun this week...We'll see what ODOT says now...

[bugo]

I've never understood the impulse to dismiss developments in indigenous communities from people who don't generally interact with them.

I lived in Oklahoma for 17 years, and I knew a ton of Native Americans. One myth is that all Natives hate the term "Indian". A ton of them refer to themselves as Indians, and the hospital in Claremore is called the "Claremore Indian Hospital", and nobody gets offended. They get offended by the poor quality health care they receive, but not by the name. The Creek Nation seal includes the initials "I.T.", which stands for "Indian Tribe". I personally say "Native American" until I know what the person I'm talking to is comfortable with. "Native" is a popular term. Another myth revolves around Native American images and iconography. I worked at a gas station on the Creek Reservation (which covers almost 5000 square miles and includes most of the city of Tulsa and the Tulsa metro) in the mid-2010s, and I saw a ton of Native Americans wearing Washington Redskins shirts, hats, jackets and other apparel. I talked to some of the regular customers that I got to know about it, and they all saw the Redskins name and logo as a badge of pride. One day, I asked a guy with a Redskins jacket on if he knew that they were going to eventually change the name and the logo, and he said "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!" There isn't a lot of Native iconography in our culture, and with the demise of the Redskins, the Cleveland Indians and the Land O'Lakes princess, it is disappearing fast. Native American culture is barely acknowledged in American culture outside of Oklahoma and a few other places, and they are almost invisible in most parts of the US. If the powers that be are going to get rid of these icons, they need to replace them with "positive" Native American iconography. The biggest myth is that Natives are a monolith that all believes the same things. I debunked that myth in this post. Natives are diverse and they don't all have the same beliefs or opinions.

[bugo]

They should have made US 412 either I-46, I-48 or I-50 and made the Muskogee Turnpike I-42. It isn't the ideal number, but it beats the tar out of I-343. Hell, I-43 would have been a better number than I-343, since the turnpike is somewhat diagonal. I-140 or I-340 would have been the ideal number, but Oklahoma is the reason why we can't have nice things.

[Rothman]

I find bugo's statements a little outdated.  The National Park Service's style guide requires the use of the term "American Indian" rather than "Native American" and has now for years.

I'm never persuaded by "Oh yeah, well I've had friends that weren't offended by X so no one should be and my experience means it's all exaggerated" kinds of arguments.  I leave how appropriate name or symbol changes are to those that make them.  Changing a possibly offensive team name or logo, especially when we're really talking businesses out to make a profit, seems like a ridiculously small affair that results in wins on all sorts of fronts (i.e., opening up your product to a bigger market and thus increasing such profit...).

[bugo]

However, I'm not super convinced that would necessarily be the case for Interstate 343. As far as I'm aware, Interstate highways are very competitive for business startups, but only to a point. I haven't seen anybody say they wish they had a business adjacent to Interstate 180 in Illinois, for example. I also have a hard time believing that OK 351 (soon I-343) would have any substantial traffic boost once the Interstate highway designation is added, it's not like there's active progress to close a gap in the route either, or that its AADT would go up by people driving from Fort Smith to Tulsa solely because its designation changed.

There aren't a lot of gas stations along OK 351. There is a half exit between the Muskogee Turnpike and US 64 just north of I-40, and there are no businesses at that interchange. There are no exits between US 64 and where the tolled section of the Muskogee Turnpike ends at OK 165/Hancock Street, which is a partial interchange with a church and a mortar company but no services. The Chandler Road interchange has a Sinclair station/c-store that I have stopped at many times. There is a motel south of the Gibson Street interchange, but no convenience stores. The US 62 cloverleaf has a Casey's about ¾ of a mile to the west. No c-stores at the Harris Road (signed as "Hyde Park Road".) The toll road picks up here, and crosses OK 16 (former US 73, US 69 and OK 2) with no interchange. The next interchange is at at US 69, where there is a brewery. Just west of this interchange is a service area in the middle of the highway. It has a Love's gas station/c-store and a McDonald's. This service plaza is usually very busy night and day. The next interchange is with OK 51, and the nearest services are in Coweta, which is 5 miles to the west of the junction. There was to be another service plaza just south of Muskogee, but it was never built. You can easily see the wide median in the road where the plaza was going to be built. The next interchange is the cloverleaf at the Creek Turnpike, which is another controlled access facility. Just west of here, OK 51 joins the main highway and the Muskogee Turnpike and OK 351 end and the highway becomes the Broken Arrow Expressway (known locally as "The BA") enters Tulsa County and is no longer tolled. The interchange at OK 51 is incomplete. There are many interchanges to the west of here, some with gas stations, hotels and other retail businesses. The stretch of OK 51 between the Tulsa County line and I-44 is an excellent 6 to 8 lane freeway with wide shoulders that has been rebuilt fairly recently. It would be easy to extend "I-343" to I-44. West of I-44, OK 51/US 64 is a narrow, winding 6 lane facility with short exit ramps and two dangerous curves where it hops on and off the UP/BNSF railroad alignment. It's a terrible road. It would be very expensive to upgrade this road to Interstate standards. Widening it would be difficult enough as it goes through dense residential areas, but the curves at Sheridan and 15th/Lewis would be nearly impossible to remove unless they relocated the highway to a new alignment, which won't happen. So unless Interstate standards are relaxed, which is something that I wouldn't be surprised to see happen under the current administration, the furthest west "I-343" would go is the I-44 cloverleaf.

tl;dr version: There are few services along the OK 351/OK 51 corridor. The busiest store is in the service plaza west of Muskogee. It might benefit Muskogee in general being on an Interstate, but it will have little effect on roadside retail operations.

[bugo]

I don't see it going anywhere, but a bill has been filed in cross pledging on the turnpikes in Oklahoma:

https://kfor.com/news/oklahoma-legislature/lawmaker-moves-to-end-cross-pledging-revenue-between-oklahoma-turnpikes/

That would be catastrophic. No new turnpikes would be built, and the non-I-44 turnpikes would not be maintained well at all. The OTA could offload the turnpikes with less traffic onto the state, but the gas tax would go way up.

I follow the OTA page on social media. Every time they post something, no matter what it is, a mouth breather or 20 will complain about tolls and demand that the turnpikes become "free". When I remind them that if the OTA ceased to exist, fuel taxes in Oklahoma would skyrocket, they say "No, they wouldn't" or they say something about the "surplus" Oklahoma supposedly has and that they wouldn't have to raise taxes at all. I also remind them that they don't have to pay for the toll roads if they choose to not drive on them, but if they became toll-free, they would have to pay for them because a large percentage of fuel taxes would go to the former turnpikes.

Okie rednecks don't think things through, and they live in a fantasy world where Oklafuckinghoma has a budget surplus and that when roads become "free", they don't have to pay for them anymore. And they don't care about facts. Present them with the truth and they will deny it and double down on their psychotic beliefs.

[bugo]

Another thing about Oklahoma turnpikes is that the fares are very reasonable. Compared to states like Pennsylvania, they are dirt cheap. Turnpikes also have higher speed limits than other highways. I personally don't mind paying the tolls at all. It's worth it to be able to legally drive 80 MPH, and it saves a lot of time. Time is money and money is time, and we only have so much time, so if I have to pay $5 to save 30 minutes, then I will every time because my limited time is worth that to me. It's also worth it to not have to drive on curvy, outdated, dangerous, slow surface routes that are choked with traffic that often goes below the speed limit and go through every little podunk town on the route and often have traffic lights or even stop signs, This causes a lot of anxiety. Time is more important than money for me, and spending a few bucks for less anxiety and saving some time is well worth it to me.

[bugo]

Maybe they could forget about giving the Muskogee Turnpike an Interstate designation and just leave it OK 351. That would make more sense than giving it an Interstate 343 designation. Unfortunately, it is probably too late for that.

It has been OK 351 for nearly 14 years, and the locals still call it the Muskogee Turnpike. I don't think I've ever heard anybody call it OK 351.

[bugo]

I find bugo's statements a little outdated.  The National Park Service's style guide requires the use of the term "American Indian" rather than "Native American" and has now for years.

I'm never persuaded by "Oh yeah, well I've had friends that weren't offended by X so no one should be and my experience means it's all exaggerated" kinds of arguments.  I leave how appropriate name or symbol changes are to those that make them.  Changing a possibly offensive team name or logo, especially when we're really talking businesses out to make a profit, seems like a ridiculously small affair that results in wins on all sorts of fronts (i.e., opening up your product to a bigger market and thus increasing such profit...).

I am just sharing my experiences. The main point I was trying to make is that Native Americans aren't all the same. There is a lot of ignorance about them in most parts of the country, and some folks believe they are a monolith and all have the same opinions. And I've never, ever heard anybody refer to themselves as an "American Indian". I did talk to one guy who said that he preferred "Indian" and that "Native American" (and, presumably, any name with "American" in it) was offensive because when they first arrived in what is today's North America, the continent wasn't called (North and South) America at the time. Europeans didn't have a name for it. He did have a point.

[Bobby5280]

I don't see it going anywhere, but a bill has been filed in cross pledging on the turnpikes in Oklahoma

Yeah, I saw the news about that yesterday. It's yet another piece of idiotic legislation that illustrates just how out of touch too many people in Oklahoma are with how highways are funded.

If cross-pledging had never been allowed previously only two of Oklahoma's long turnpikes would exist -with those being the Will Rogers Turnpike and Turner Turnpike. I think the Kilpatrick Turnpike in OKC has high enough traffic levels to make it profitable. All the other turnpikes in Oklahoma (with maybe a possible exception for the Creek Turnpike in Tulsa) operate at a loss. I-44 between OKC and Wichita Falls wouldn't have ever existed. Lawton would probably be less than half its current size and Fort Sill probably would have been closed and moved elsewhere.

People in Oklahoma call for the toll gates on existing turnpikes to be removed and foolishly think there would be no downside to that. Currently Oklahoma has some of the lowest gasoline taxes in the nation, along with some of the lowest gasoline prices. Each turnpike that gets added to ODOT's maintenance burden will call for a hike in gasoline taxes. If all of Oklahoma's turnpikes were made free it would amount a hell of a big gasoline tax price hike. Of course, no new super highways would be built in Oklahoma either -that's not going to happen if they have to be funded solely with gasoline taxes (particularly at the current rate).

I don't think the anti toll road people in Oklahoma have bothered to do any price shopping to see how toll rates on Oklahoma's turnpikes compare to toll roads elsewhere. Our toll rates are a comparable bargain, as long as you have a PikePass. The plate pay rate is often more than double the price -but the plate pay prices in Oklahoma are closer to the standard turnpike rates in other areas of the country.

[bugo]

I don't see it going anywhere, but a bill has been filed in cross pledging on the turnpikes in Oklahoma

Yeah, I saw the news about that yesterday. It's yet another piece of idiotic legislation that illustrates just how out of touch too many people in Oklahoma are with how highways are funded.
<snip>

You said nearly the exact thing I said, so we're in total agreement about the ignorance of the typical Oklahoma redneck. We have obviously had similar experiences, and we are both forward-thinking enough to realize that removing the tolls is a terrible idea. Excellent post.

[kphoger]

There isn't a lot of Native iconography in our culture, and with the demise of the Redskins, the Cleveland Indians and the Land O'Lakes princess, it is disappearing fast. Native American culture is barely acknowledged in American culture outside of Oklahoma and a few other places, and they are almost invisible in most parts of the US. If the powers that be are going to get rid of these icons, they need to replace them with "positive" Native American iconography.

I'm still mad that Red Tomahawk has been erased from North Dakota route shields.

I did talk to one guy who said that he preferred "Indian" and that "Native American" (and, presumably, any name with "American" in it) was offensive because when they first arrived in what is today's North America, the continent wasn't called (North and South) America at the time. Europeans didn't have a name for it. He did have a point.

Don't call me "American" because that's the white man's name for my land.  But please call me "Indian", even though that's the white man's name for my people.  Yeah, OK...

[Rothman]

There isn't a lot of Native iconography in our culture, and with the demise of the Redskins, the Cleveland Indians and the Land O'Lakes princess, it is disappearing fast. Native American culture is barely acknowledged in American culture outside of Oklahoma and a few other places, and they are almost invisible in most parts of the US. If the powers that be are going to get rid of these icons, they need to replace them with "positive" Native American iconography.

I'm still mad that Red Tomahawk has been erased from North Dakota route shields.

I did talk to one guy who said that he preferred "Indian" and that "Native American" (and, presumably, any name with "American" in it) was offensive because when they first arrived in what is today's North America, the continent wasn't called (North and South) America at the time. Europeans didn't have a name for it. He did have a point.

Don't call me "American" because that's the white man's name for my land.  But please call me "Indian", even though that's the white man's name for my people.  Yeah, OK...

So...what name would you choose and therefore impose on them, then?

[bugo]

I'm still mad that Red Tomahawk has been erased from North Dakota route shields.

I took this picture in 2009 in Velva, ND. It was not only of a design that would soon become obsolete, but it was an error shield. (It should have been US 52.) Those shields were much cooler than the new ones. Removing the Indian was pointless because it was modeled after a real person. Some Natives were offended by its removal. I wonder how long it will be before Washington changes its route shields because something will come out about George Washington and he will be "cancelled".

I did talk to one guy who said that he preferred "Indian" and that "Native American" (and, presumably, any name with "American" in it) was offensive because when they first arrived in what is today's North America, the continent wasn't called (North and South) America at the time. Europeans didn't have a name for it. He did have a point.

Don't call me "American" because that's the white man's name for my land.  But please call me "Indian", even though that's the white man's name for my people.  Yeah, OK...

It wasn't a consistent point of view, no question. But my point was that the term "Native American" is offensive to some. You literally cannot please everybody all of the time. No matter what you do or say, it will be offensive to somebody.