EPA rule rollback, effects?

[Max Rockatansky]

The harmfulness of exhaust emissions is easily measured.  Just close a garage, keep a gasoline engine running and measure the effects of what happens to all life forms contained within an hour or so later.

Most of those exhaust emissions are still regulated. What was cut was regulations relating to greenhouse gases, mostly CO2.

Regulations are still in place for pollutants like CO, NOx, hydrocarbons, etc.

I get that.  I'm just saying that there wasn't much of a logical reason for the rollback.  It wasn't as though you couldn't go out and get a big displacement V8 or a diesel under current regulations.

Had this rollback been sold as something that was done in the interest of being consumer friendly I'd probably have a more favorable opinion of it.

[Beltway]

The harmfulness of exhaust emissions is easily measured.  Just close a garage, keep a gasoline engine running and measure the effects of what happens to all life forms contained within an hour or so later.

Modern car exhausts are so clean that you can't commit "autocide" like you could with the cars back when there were no catalytic converters.

[Rothman]

The harmfulness of exhaust emissions is easily measured.  Just close a garage, keep a gasoline engine running and measure the effects of what happens to all life forms contained within an hour or so later.

Modern car exhausts are so clean that you can't commit "autocide" like you could with the cars back when there were no catalytic converters.

Eh, you just have to wait a lot longer than back in the day.

[Beltway]

Anything to support the idea that people don't like the start/stop push button and would like to go back to key ignitions rather than your gut?

The two features are mutually exclusive.

[Max Rockatansky]

The harmfulness of exhaust emissions is easily measured.  Just close a garage, keep a gasoline engine running and measure the effects of what happens to all life forms contained within an hour or so later.

Modern car exhausts are so clean that you can't commit "autocide" like you could with the cars back when there were no catalytic converters.

Eh, you just have to wait a lot longer than back in the day.

Last week I had to change a fuse in Jessica's Forester after her low beams and DRLs went out.  It took me a couple minutes to realize after she started the Forester up that the garage door was still down (one of the bulbs was dead after the fuse replacement).  Given she is a Behavioral Health person I was surprised to hear that she never had heard of suicide by car exhaust before.

[Rothman]

The harmfulness of exhaust emissions is easily measured.  Just close a garage, keep a gasoline engine running and measure the effects of what happens to all life forms contained within an hour or so later.

Modern car exhausts are so clean that you can't commit "autocide" like you could with the cars back when there were no catalytic converters.

Eh, you just have to wait a lot longer than back in the day.

Last week I had to change a fuse in Jessica's Forester after her low beams and DRLs went out.  It took me a couple minutes to realize after she started the Forester up that the garage door was still down (one of the bulbs was dead after the fuse replacement).  Given she is a Behavioral Health person I was surprised to hear that she never had heard of suicide by car exhaust before.

Now I'm thinking about people trying to pull a Sylvia Plath with an electric oven.

[Beltway]

The harmfulness of exhaust emissions is easily measured.  Just close a garage, keep a gasoline engine running and measure the effects of what happens to all life forms contained within an hour or so later.

Modern car exhausts are so clean that you can't commit "autocide" like you could with the cars back when there were no catalytic converters.

Eh, you just have to wait a lot longer than back in the day.

My counseling research shows that is a very unreliable method.

Combustion using up all the oxygen in a room is real, but it takes a well sealed room and a very long time.

Given long enough time even a candle will be lethal.

[Rothman]

The harmfulness of exhaust emissions is easily measured.  Just close a garage, keep a gasoline engine running and measure the effects of what happens to all life forms contained within an hour or so later.

Modern car exhausts are so clean that you can't commit "autocide" like you could with the cars back when there were no catalytic converters.

Eh, you just have to wait a lot longer than back in the day.

My counseling research shows that is a very unreliable method.

Combustion using up all the oxygen it a room is real, but it takes a well sealed room and a very long time.

Given long enough even a candle will be lethal.

Counseling research?

[Dirt Roads]

Anything to support the idea that people don't like the start/stop push button and would like to go back to key ignitions rather than your gut?

I asked that question myself.  Every article that I have read thus far seems to take objection to the start/stop pushbutton and seemingly ignores that the primary issue is that the automatic restart feature isn't always ready to propel the vehicle when the accelerator is depressed. 

Got one or two you could share?

This article from USAToday was one of the first that I read, but it has been significantly updated to discuss the EPA emissions credit.

Same thing with this article from the Associated Press.  I didn't originally go directly to the APNews website, but this article jumped on Trump calling the start/stop pushbutton the "Obama Switch".  The article now adds a large section where Lee Zeldin (EPA Administrator) jumps all over the technology. 

Also, the AP article now adds a statistic I hadn't seen (nor expected) that the SAE says that the Stop/Start functionality provides "drivers with anywhere from 7% to 26% in fuel economy savings".  That is not intuitive to me, but my only background in fuel economy is with DMU trains and diesel-electric drive buses (more like small locomotives, not the hybrid types).

To be honest, I'm not seeing what I saw (or remembered) from a few days ago.

[Rothman]

Anything to support the idea that people don't like the start/stop push button and would like to go back to key ignitions rather than your gut?

I asked that question myself.  Every article that I have read thus far seems to take objection to the start/stop pushbutton and seemingly ignores that the primary issue is that the automatic restart feature isn't always ready to propel the vehicle when the accelerator is depressed. 

Got one or two you could share?

This article from USAToday was one of the first that I read, but it has been significantly updated to discuss the EPA emissions credit.

Same thing with this article from the Associated Press.  I didn't originally go directly to the APNews website, but this article jumped on Trump calling the start/stop pushbutton the "Obama Switch".  The article now adds a large section where Lee Zeldin (EPA Administrator) jumps all over the technology. 

Also, the AP article now adds a statistic I hadn't seen (nor expected) that the SAE says that the Stop/Start functionality provides "drivers with anywhere from 7% to 26% in fuel economy savings".  That is not intuitive to me, but my only background in fuel economy is with DMU trains and diesel-electric drive buses (more like small locomotives, not the hybrid types).

To be honest, I'm not seeing what I saw (or remembered) from a few days ago.

Those seem to be addressing the automatic start/stop switch at idling, rather than the push button itself. 

Still, sort of reminds me of those that insist on standard transmissions...no matter my sympathies towards such a sentiment.

[Beltway]

Eh, you just have to wait a lot longer than back in the day.

My counseling research shows that is a very unreliable method.
Combustion using up all the oxygen it a room is real, but it takes a well sealed room and a very long time.
Given long enough even a candle will be lethal.

Counseling research?

Yes -- even so, I would not recommend running any tests.

[1995hoo]

The harmfulness of exhaust emissions is easily measured.  Just close a garage, keep a gasoline engine running and measure the effects of what happens to all life forms contained within an hour or so later.

Modern car exhausts are so clean that you can't commit "autocide" like you could with the cars back when there were no catalytic converters.

Eh, you just have to wait a lot longer than back in the day.

My counseling research shows that is a very unreliable method.

Combustion using up all the oxygen in a room is real, but it takes a well sealed room and a very long time.

Given long enough time even a candle will be lethal.

Brad Delp's family might disagree. He used two charcoal grills in a sealed-up bathroom and, unfortunately, they proved extremely effective. I suppose the difference is that he died of carbon monoxide poisoning from the smoke.

[Beltway]

Also, the AP article now adds a statistic I hadn't seen (nor expected) that the SAE says that the Stop/Start functionality provides "drivers with anywhere from 7% to 26% in fuel economy savings".  That is not intuitive to me, but my only background in fuel economy is with DMU trains and diesel-electric drive buses (more like small locomotives, not the hybrid types).

I find that hard to swallow.

It doesn't cause that much downtime, and then you have a spike when it restarts.

I had a rental car (Mercedes CLA 250) when I was in the Midwest a couple weeks ago.

Visited my sister in Madison WI when daytime highs were 0 to +5 F. How do you like the stupid thing causing the engine to stop along with the heater when you are at a light?

[Beltway]

My counseling research shows that is a very unreliable method.
Combustion using up all the oxygen in a room is real, but it takes a well sealed room and a very long time.
Given long enough time even a candle will be lethal.

Brad Delp's family might disagree. He used two charcoal grills in a sealed-up bathroom and, unfortunately, they proved extremely effective. I suppose the difference is that he died of carbon monoxide poisoning from the smoke.

Definitely carbon monoxide poisoning with that setup. The two charcoal grills would quickly consume enough oxygen to cause incomplete combustion and CO generation.

[kalvado]

Also, the AP article now adds a statistic I hadn't seen (nor expected) that the SAE says that the Stop/Start functionality provides "drivers with anywhere from 7% to 26% in fuel economy savings".  That is not intuitive to me, but my only background in fuel economy is with DMU trains and diesel-electric drive buses (more like small locomotives, not the hybrid types).

I find that hard to swallow.

It doesn't cause that much downtime, and then you have a spike when it restarts.

I had a rental car (Mercedes CLA 250) when I was in the Midwest a couple weeks ago.

Visited my sister in Madison WI when daytime highs were 0 to +5 F. How do you like the stupid thing causing the engine to stop along with the heater when you are at a light?

I can see standard press 1%-honest trick here. A sliver of truth probably comes from hybrids thrown in the mix. And I can easily see hybrid (with electric AC, of course) running a mixed cycle using gas mostly for recharge and indeed saving gas in city traffic.

[Beltway]

I had a rental car (Mercedes CLA 250) when I was in the Midwest a couple weeks ago.
Visited my sister in Madison WI when daytime highs were 0 to +5 F. How do you like the stupid thing causing the engine to stop along with the heater when you are at a light?

I can see standard press 1%-honest trick here. A sliver of truth probably comes from hybrids thrown in the mix. And I can easily see hybrid (with electric AC, of course) running a mixed cycle using gas mostly for recharge and indeed saving gas in city traffic.

I'm fine with a system that lets you turn it off and keep it off until you decide otherwise.

Neither that car nor my 2024 Buick does that -- you have to turn it off every time after you start the engine.

[Rothman]

Also, the AP article now adds a statistic I hadn't seen (nor expected) that the SAE says that the Stop/Start functionality provides "drivers with anywhere from 7% to 26% in fuel economy savings".  That is not intuitive to me, but my only background in fuel economy is with DMU trains and diesel-electric drive buses (more like small locomotives, not the hybrid types).

I find that hard to swallow.

It doesn't cause that much downtime, and then you have a spike when it restarts.

I had a rental car (Mercedes CLA 250) when I was in the Midwest a couple weeks ago.

Visited my sister in Madison WI when daytime highs were 0 to +5 F. How do you like the stupid thing causing the engine to stop along with the heater when you are at a light?

Hm.  I haven't had the heater shut off at idling.  I usually have it set to auto on the thermostat, though.

[kphoger]

Every article that I have read thus far ... seemingly ignores that the primary issue is that the automatic restart feature isn't always ready to propel the vehicle when the accelerator is depressed.

I used to think that.  But then I realized it's only about a half-second or so.  Driving a stickshift, sometimes it takes longer than that just to 'do the dance' of clutch and gas.

Anybody who thinks start stop is not stupid doesn't understand how starters work or how oil lubrication works.

That 'start/stop/ thing also puts a LOT of wear and tear on the starting system.

While I don't like the start/stop thing either, I'm compelled to point out that cars equipped with it also come equipped with beefier starter motors and such components.  So, yes, it does cause more wear and tear, but those parts are built to handle the wear and tear.

[kalvado]

I had a rental car (Mercedes CLA 250) when I was in the Midwest a couple weeks ago.
Visited my sister in Madison WI when daytime highs were 0 to +5 F. How do you like the stupid thing causing the engine to stop along with the heater when you are at a light?

I can see standard press 1%-honest trick here. A sliver of truth probably comes from hybrids thrown in the mix. And I can easily see hybrid (with electric AC, of course) running a mixed cycle using gas mostly for recharge and indeed saving gas in city traffic.

I am ok with a system that allows you to turn it off and keep it off until and unless you decide otherwise.

Neither that car or my 2024 Buick does that -- you have to turn it off every time you start the engine.

My point is that stopping engine may make perfect sense in a hybrid designed with such operation in mind. Extrapolation of those conclusions to gas-only cars should be rated as "mostly honest" by tabloids like NYT.

[Mapmikey]

Also, the AP article now adds a statistic I hadn't seen (nor expected) that the SAE says that the Stop/Start functionality provides "drivers with anywhere from 7% to 26% in fuel economy savings".  That is not intuitive to me, but my only background in fuel economy is with DMU trains and diesel-electric drive buses (more like small locomotives, not the hybrid types).

I find that hard to swallow.

It doesn't cause that much downtime, and then you have a spike when it restarts.

I had a rental car (Mercedes CLA 250) when I was in the Midwest a couple weeks ago.

Visited my sister in Madison WI when daytime highs were 0 to +5 F. How do you like the stupid thing causing the engine to stop along with the heater when you are at a light?

My previous car had the start/stop. If the engine was insufficiently warmed up it would not activate when you stopped.  If you had a heavy power load going on such as running max AC it would either not activate or come back on sooner than the 45 seconds it normally restarted if you're still sitting there.

I prefer my current hybrid car which does the equivalent but when restarting it only runs the electric motor and the gas engine re-engages once you're moving along. This definitely makes gas mileage better.

[1995hoo]

My wife's Acura TLX has the auto stop/start. Usually we leave it enabled, but I override it if I'm waiting at a flashing yellow arrow or other permissive left turn (including being in a two-way left-turn lane) because in that situation I don't want any delay at all when I get a clear spot to turn. I also try to watch the other street's light, if possible, so that I can quickly lift my foot off the brake to restart the car just before my street gets a green, but that's not all that different from when I'm driving my car and I watch the other light so I can shift into first gear to be ready to move.

[Dirt Roads]

Also, the AP article now adds a statistic I hadn't seen (nor expected) that the SAE says that the Stop/Start functionality provides "drivers with anywhere from 7% to 26% in fuel economy savings".  That is not intuitive to me, but my only background in fuel economy is with DMU trains and diesel-electric drive buses (more like small locomotives, not the hybrid types).

I find that hard to swallow.

It doesn't cause that much downtime, and then you have a spike when it restarts.

Agreed.  My understanding was that the primary benefits were: (A) vehicles with Stop/Start functionality have significantly reduced emissions at the intersection itself while stopped and not idling (mentioned in a previous post); and (B) widespread usage reduces the aggregate number of vehicles stopped-and-idling at an intersection (ergo, lots of vehicles causing emissions at essentially the same location while not creating a winddraft that [circulates] the noxious emissions. 

But I could see where other technologies could be employed to reduce the emissions caused during the engine "start-to-accelerate" cycle, which historically caused the highest levels of emissions.  There was a lot of pressure on the automotive industry to address this particular issue prior to the rollout of the EPA credit program.

I can see standard press 1%-honest trick here. A sliver of truth probably comes from hybrids thrown in the mix. And I can easily see hybrid (with electric AC, of course) running a mixed cycle using gas mostly for recharge and indeed saving gas in city traffic.

My point is that stopping engine may make perfect sense in a hybrid designed with such operation in mind. Extrapolation of those conclusions to gas-only cars should be rated as "mostly honest" by tabloids like NYT.

You just answered my question.  It would be very misleading to quote an SAE statistic that has little or nothing to do with the "Start/Stop functionality" on gasoline engines in an article related to such topic.  (Which I may have inadvertently done myself, to be honest).

[Beltway]

My understanding was that the primary benefits were: (A) vehicles with Stop/Start functionality have significantly reduced emissions at the intersection itself while stopped and not idling (mentioned in a previous post); and (B) widespread usage reduces the aggregate number of vehicles stopped-and-idling at an intersection (ergo, lots of vehicles causing emissions at essentially the same location while not creating a winddraft that [circulates] the noxious emissions.

Maybe that was the rationale -- reduced emissions at the intersection itself with all the vehicles present.

[Beltway]

Visited my sister in Madison WI when daytime highs were 0 to +5 F. How do you like the stupid thing causing the engine to stop along with the heater when you are at a light?

Hm.  I haven't had the heater shut off at idling.  I usually have it set to auto on the thermostat, though.

Actually the heater did not shut off -- just put out cold air -- stopped heating the car.

[Chris]

Europeans still buy a lot of stick shift cars (though fewer than in the past), and even those have a stop/start system. Which is kind of pointless, you need to put the manual gear in neutral for it to take effect, and it turns the engine off. It restarts once you press the clutch.

I don't think many people put a manual car in neutral at a traffic signal, so this stop/start system has no value, other than companies selling batteries, because the batteries on these systems are considerably more expensive. I had to replace mine one time and the cost was 3 times that of a regular car battery.