Virginia

[Thing 342]

At this point, just build the full freeway from VA-288 to US-360, and toll it. It's going to take 20 years to build if they phase it.
Edit: I see the plan has the entire 9 mile facility being constructed at once as two lanes, and with "high capacity at-grade intersections". That is even worse, IMO. I see a busy 2 lane road with traffic backing up at each red light, just becoming another US-360 with only one lane in each direction. The whole point of the road was to be a freeway bypass to US-360 (free flowing, 60+ mph, etc.), not become another US-360 (clogged, red lights, 45 mph, etc.)

Subject:
Approval of Powhite Parkway Extension Finance Plan
Board Action Requested:
The Board is requested to approve the Powhite Parkway Extension Finance Plan

I would like to see the finance plan -- namely the cost estimate.

Supposedly both the county and state bond issues for the original extension are nearly paid off. It could be made toll-free like the recent Coleman Bridge detolling, or it could be used to provide toll revenue for the new western extension.

I agree that it should be built to full 4-lane freeway standards.

It's in the linked presentation ... $565M. A full freeway would be well over $1B.

Given that the majority of the funding appears to be from local bonding, the project getting cut down in scope isn't very surprising.

[plain]

VDOT posted a pic of I-85 at the VA/NC border from 1974 on their Facebook page.

 https://www.facebook.com/share/19Fa8Etxuy/

[Thing 342]

Random notes from the past ~2 weeks:

• Speed cameras are up along I-64 through the entire widening project zone, as are the variable speed signs. The entire corridor appears to use the same limit regardless of where workers actually are. ~30 miles of photo-enforced 60 MPH limits on a highway that supported 80 pre-construction is pretty annoying.
• The Colonial Parkway project continues to Zeno's paradox its way to completion. The new re-closure date to finish bridge repair is September 9, pushed back from July. Wouldn't shock me if we didn't see full re-opening until 2027. https://www.nps.gov/colo/planyourvisit/colo-parkway-rehab.htm
• HRBT: The northern half of the westbound trestle is now open. Interestingly, much of the Hampton approach portion has already been paved and striped for opening, even though it'll probably be months before everything is open. As expected, the temporary express shoulder lane on the Hampton portion is on the left shoulder and is inaccessible to normal traffic. Wish I had pictures, because with the tall jersey barrier this looks like it will be a white-knuckle drive during the hours when both lanes are open.
• US-60 East is now signed with I-64 going across the Willoughby Bay bridge. Assuming US-60 West is routed on the opposite direction, does that make US-60 West discontinuous at the Ocean View / 4th View intersection (since traffic cannot turn left from Ocean View to 4th View to reach I-64)?

[Beltway]

Speed cameras are up along I-64 through the entire widening project zone, as are the variable speed signs. The entire corridor appears to use the same limit regardless of where workers actually are. ~30 miles of photo-enforced 60 MPH limits on a highway that supported 80 pre-construction is pretty annoying.

Variable speed limits. Non construction times it is 70 mph. A highway with widening under construction and barricades is different from a completed highway.

[WahooBill]

My Virginia Wish List

Unlike North Carolina, Virginia doesn't seem to be improving routes (other than I81/I64 widening projects).  My wish list of Virginia projects would start with:

Freeway upgrade of US29 between Warrenton and Culpeper
new US29 freeway construction south of Lynchburg
Interchange at US29 and US15
New route from I95 to US17 from Stafford Airport exit to some where near Celebrate Virginia Pkwy
US58 Bower Hill, full freeway from I264 to Suffolk bypass
Full Freeway version of Powhite Pkwy Extention from existing end to Skinquarter (US360)
Improvements to US460 - Add full median from I295 to US58


Any other ideas out there?

[sprjus4]

Improvements to US460 - Add full median from I295 to US58

What could have been...



https://bowman.com/projects/route-460-corridor-improvement-project

[Beltway]

The [US-460 freeway] project had been approved by the Commonwealth Transportation Board and was proceeding with status approaching the right-of-way acquisition stage when the project was cancelled due to natural resources and other environmental concerns.

The US-460 freeway Petersburg-Suffolk would be a far better expenditure of funds for a new freeway. That is a far less capable highway than the US-58 segment. Six different things are wrong with it, none of which are present on US-58. Having a US-460 freeway between Richmond-Petersburg and South Hampton Roads would be an ideal addition and a means to avoid having to cross Hampton Roads. It may have obviated or greatly reduced the need for the I-64 GAP Widening projects

It was killed as a political stunt by [elided] in 2016, after 10 years of study and completion of a full NEPA EIS process.

[Rothman]

The [US-460 freeway] project had been approved by the Commonwealth Transportation Board and was proceeding with status approaching the right-of-way acquisition stage when the project was cancelled due to natural resources and other environmental concerns.

The US-460 freeway Petersburg-Suffolk would be a far better expenditure of funds for a new freeway. That is a far less capable highway than the US-58 segment. Six different things are wrong with it, none of which are present on US-58. Having a US-460 freeway between Richmond-Petersburg and South Hampton Roads would be an ideal addition and a means to avoid having to cross Hampton Roads. It may have obviated or greatly reduced the need for the I-64 GAP Widening projects

It was killed as a political stunt by [elided] in 2016, after 10 years of study and completion of a full NEPA EIS process.

Waverly would go to war before letting their speed trap dissipate.

[Beltway]

What speed trap is that? I run US-460 Petersburg-Suffolk 30 to 50 times a year, and I only occasionally see what looks like speed enforcement. I run 62 or 65 in the 55 zones, 58 or 60 in the 50 zones, and have never been bothered.

[Rothman]

What speed trap is that? I run US-460 Petersburg-Suffolk 30 to 50 times a year, and I only occasionally see what looks like speed enforcement. I run 62 or 65 in the 55 zones, 58 or 60 in the 50 zones, and have never been bothered.

https://www.leavittmartinlaw.com/case-results/waverly-va-dismissed-reckless-driving-ticket

https://www.facebook.com/WaverlyVirginaSpeedTrap/

https://www.rileywellslaw.com/waverly-va-speeding-ticket-lawyer/

https://virginiamercury.com/2019/09/02/which-virginia-localities-rely-on-traffic-fines-for-money-most/

[74/171FAN]

Waverly would go to war before letting their speed trap dissipate.

I have seen many cops around Waverly over the years.

[Beltway]

What speed trap is that? I run US-460 Petersburg-Suffolk 30 to 50 times a year, and I only occasionally see what looks like speed enforcement. I run 62 or 65 in the 55 zones, 58 or 60 in the 50 zones, and have never been bothered.

https://www.leavittmartinlaw.com/case-results/waverly-va-dismissed-reckless-driving-ticket
https://www.facebook.com/WaverlyVirginaSpeedTrap/
https://www.rileywellslaw.com/waverly-va-speeding-ticket-lawyer/
https://virginiamercury.com/2019/09/02/which-virginia-localities-rely-on-traffic-fines-for-money-most/

Those links get passed around a lot, but they don't actually describe what's happening operationally on US‑460 through Waverly. The "speed trap" folklore is internet shorthand -- the real issue is the EMS burden on a rural municipality sitting on a major corridor.

Waverly and Wakefield has one of the worst crash profiles on US-460, and every serious crash pulls the town's emergency‑services system straight into the highway: police, fire, rescue, EMS, wrecker, and hospital intake. Neither VDOT, nor FHWA, nor State Police handle medical response. The locality absorbs the entire load.

Rural departments like Waverly have: fewer units, fewer medics, longer transport distances, limited surge capacity.

A single high‑severity crash on US-460 can wipe out their available coverage for residents for 12 to 24 hours. That's the operational reality -- not the social‑media narrative.

The Facebook pages and lawyer sites you linked are built around case marketing, not corridor operations. They don't change the fact that major‑corridor crashes fall entirely on the locality's EMS system, and Waverly gets hammered by 460 traffic far more than people realize.

Revenue folklore is the internet talking point.

EMS load is the actual driver -- especially for rural municipalities like Waverly.

Every police agency in Virginia uses the Virginia Uniform Summons, all traffic cases go through the state General District Court system, and all sworn officers are state‑certified under DCJS. The locality doesn't control the court process, doesn't control the summons, and doesn't receive the fine revenue. Under §46.2‑878, speed‑limit authority is a state function, not a municipal revenue tool. The idea that a locality "keeps limits low to write tickets" has no legal, financial, or operational basis.

Because the Uniform Summons, the courts, the officers, and the revenue stream are all state‑controlled and completely separate from the locality, there is no mechanism -- and no incentive -- for a town or county to manipulate speed limits to boost ticket revenue. The claim collapses on law, economics, and operational structure.

And the revenue doesn't go to the locality or the police anyway -- traffic‑fine revenue in Virginia is deposited into the state Literary Fund under §46.2‑208.1. Neither local governments nor police departments financially benefit from speed‑limit enforcement.

[Rothman]

What speed trap is that? I run US-460 Petersburg-Suffolk 30 to 50 times a year, and I only occasionally see what looks like speed enforcement. I run 62 or 65 in the 55 zones, 58 or 60 in the 50 zones, and have never been bothered.

https://www.leavittmartinlaw.com/case-results/waverly-va-dismissed-reckless-driving-ticket
https://www.facebook.com/WaverlyVirginaSpeedTrap/
https://www.rileywellslaw.com/waverly-va-speeding-ticket-lawyer/
https://virginiamercury.com/2019/09/02/which-virginia-localities-rely-on-traffic-fines-for-money-most/

Blah blah blah

None of what was said changes the fact that Waverly's speeding ticket issuing rates are disproportionately high, thus its reputation as a speed trap.

(Also contradictions galore in that post, but what's the point...)

[WillWeaverRVA]

I've driven through Waverly A LOT heading to South Hampton Roads and the OBX and every single time I see cops running radar there. It's a speed trap.

[1995hoo]

He's made it clear that he is generally opposed to the characterization of anything as a "speed trap." He seems to think people engaging in discussion with him have to accept his definition of various terms.

I understand the rationale some people employ: The speed limit is legally the maximum speed at which you are allowed to drive in a given location, so from a technical standpoint you don't have standing to complain if a cop stops you when you're going faster, regardless of how much faster. Yes, from a technical legal standpoint that's correct, and if you do get a speeding ticket and take it to court in most states the judge will proceed along the lines of, "What was the speed limit? And how fast were you going? Guilty."

That's all true. But from a practical and societal standpoint, law enforcement in most areas of the country has decided to allow some leeway for various reasons, such that places that are exceptionally strict about it are commonly known as "speed traps." And there's nothing wrong with that either because law enforcement's own practices make it a valid characterization, regardless of what the special-needs "the law is the law and shall not be mocked" crowd believe.

[hbelkins]

A speed trap is defined as any place where cops do traffic enforcement instead of patrolling for evidence or prevention of real crimes.

[Beltway]

What speed trap is that? I run US-460 Petersburg-Suffolk 30 to 50 times a year, and I only occasionally see what looks like speed enforcement. I run 62 or 65 in the 55 zones, 58 or 60 in the 50 zones, and have never been bothered.

https://www.leavittmartinlaw.com/case-results/waverly-va-dismissed-reckless-driving-ticket
https://www.facebook.com/WaverlyVirginaSpeedTrap/
https://www.rileywellslaw.com/waverly-va-speeding-ticket-lawyer/
https://virginiamercury.com/2019/09/02/which-virginia-localities-rely-on-traffic-fines-for-money-most/

Blah blah blah

None of what was said changes the fact that Waverly's speeding ticket issuing rates are disproportionately high, thus its reputation as a speed trap.
(Also contradictions galore in that post, but what's the point...)

What do you know about Waverly other than a dot in a map?? And it is not Waverly but Sussex County Sheriff's Department. 

You quoted only the first two lines of what I wrote and removed the entire explanation. The point wasn't my anecdotal experience -- it was the operational reason enforcement exists on US‑460. Waverly and Wakefield carry one of the worst crash profiles on the corridor, and every serious crash pulls their police, fire, rescue, EMS, and transport capacity straight into the highway. Rural departments have limited units and long transport distances; a single high‑severity crash can wipe out their EMS coverage for residents for 12–24 hours. That's the driver -- not revenue folklore.

When the whole explanation gets snipped out, it looks like I'm talking about my own experience instead of the EMS burden. But the EMS load is the actual issue.

[Beltway]

I've driven through Waverly A LOT heading to South Hampton Roads and the OBX and every single time I see cops running radar there. It's a speed trap.

Will, that's fine -- your firsthand experience is your firsthand experience. Mine is different: I see enforcement maybe 1 out of 10 passes. That's the nature of corridor travel; different drivers hit different times of day, different traffic conditions, and different enforcement cycles.

But the matter isn't whose anecdote is "more true." The operational question is why enforcement exists at all on US‑460 through Waverly. That comes from the crash profile and the EMS burden, not from folklore about revenue or from whether any one driver sees radar on a given trip.

Anecdotes vary. The corridor's crash and EMS load doesn't.

[Rothman]

What speed trap is that? I run US-460 Petersburg-Suffolk 30 to 50 times a year, and I only occasionally see what looks like speed enforcement. I run 62 or 65 in the 55 zones, 58 or 60 in the 50 zones, and have never been bothered.

https://www.leavittmartinlaw.com/case-results/waverly-va-dismissed-reckless-driving-ticket
https://www.facebook.com/WaverlyVirginaSpeedTrap/
https://www.rileywellslaw.com/waverly-va-speeding-ticket-lawyer/
https://virginiamercury.com/2019/09/02/which-virginia-localities-rely-on-traffic-fines-for-money-most/

Blah blah blah

None of what was said changes the fact that Waverly's speeding ticket issuing rates are disproportionately high, thus its reputation as a speed trap.
(Also contradictions galore in that post, but what's the point...)

What do you know about Waverly other than a dot in a map?? And it is not Waverly but Sussex County Sheriff's Department. 

You quoted only the first two lines of what I wrote and removed the entire explanation. The point wasn't my anecdotal experience -- it was the operational reason enforcement exists on US‑460. Waverly and Wakefield carry one of the worst crash profiles on the corridor, and every serious crash pulls their police, fire, rescue, EMS, and transport capacity straight into the highway. Rural departments have limited units and long transport distances; a single high‑severity crash can wipe out their EMS coverage for residents for 12–24 hours. That's the driver -- not revenue folklore.

When the whole explanation gets snipped out, it looks like I'm talking about my own experience instead of the EMS burden. But the EMS load is the actual issue.

Case in point...

[ElishaGOtis]

What speed trap is that? I run US-460 Petersburg-Suffolk 30 to 50 times a year, and I only occasionally see what looks like speed enforcement. I run 62 or 65 in the 55 zones, 58 or 60 in the 50 zones, and have never been bothered.

https://www.leavittmartinlaw.com/case-results/waverly-va-dismissed-reckless-driving-ticket
https://www.facebook.com/WaverlyVirginaSpeedTrap/
https://www.rileywellslaw.com/waverly-va-speeding-ticket-lawyer/
https://virginiamercury.com/2019/09/02/which-virginia-localities-rely-on-traffic-fines-for-money-most/

Blah blah blah

None of what was said changes the fact that Waverly's speeding ticket issuing rates are disproportionately high, thus its reputation as a speed trap.
(Also contradictions galore in that post, but what's the point...)

What do you know about Waverly other than a dot in a map?? And it is not Waverly but Sussex County Sheriff's Department. 

You quoted only the first two lines of what I wrote and removed the entire explanation. The point wasn't my anecdotal experience -- it was the operational reason enforcement exists on US‑460. Waverly and Wakefield carry one of the worst crash profiles on the corridor, and every serious crash pulls their police, fire, rescue, EMS, and transport capacity straight into the highway. Rural departments have limited units and long transport distances; a single high‑severity crash can wipe out their EMS coverage for residents for 12–24 hours. That's the driver -- not revenue folklore.

When the whole explanation gets snipped out, it looks like I'm talking about my own experience instead of the EMS burden. But the EMS load is the actual issue.

Case in point...

My personal definition of a speed trap is when an artificially low speed limit is being maintained for the sole purpose of enforcement purposes, whether that be to raise revenue, to increase interactions with the public to "find more serious offenses," to make writing tickets or making arrests for a specific speed easier to conduct (such as dropping the limit from 55 to 35 for the sole purpose of making 55 reckless), to scare the public into complying with a speed limit in a certain area (that has actually worked to an extent from my experience in some extreme cases), or purely political reasons. It seems like multiple of the previous points are hit with this example.

Even then, this roadway does not need an artificially low speed limit to justify not overwhelming the EMS system. That's like justifying how speed limits needed to be lowered during the COVID-19 lockdowns to prevent overwhelming the hospital system (some places actually did do that but it was thankfully rare). Yes, that roadway is a hazard, but a stupid-low speed limit is only going to make things worse in my experience.

If I had a nickel for every time we had a Virginia speed limit discussion in the past couple months in this thread, I'd have 2 nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird how it happened twice

Can NY get this level of scrutiny by AARoads next?

Even still... 75 plz

EDIT: Maybe 35 isn't artificially low near the signal and curve, but could be argued for the surrounding areas... after giving the town a better look.

[Beltway]

Even then, this roadway does not need an artificially low speed limit to justify not overwhelming the EMS system. That's like justifying how speed limits needed to be lowered during the COVID-19 lockdowns to prevent overwhelming the hospital system (some places actually did do that but it was thankfully rare). Yes, that roadway is a hazard, but a stupid-low speed limit is only going to make things worse in my experience.

Elisha, I'm not arguing for artificially low limits. US‑460's posted limits are standard for an undivided four‑lane with 10.5‑foot lanes, inadequate shoulders, and a series of small towns. There are 10 brief sections with turn lanes, maybe 2 miles out of the 49. The rural sections at 55, the town transitions at 45, and the 35s in Wakefield and Waverly and Windsor are all within normal practice for that geometry. You could make a case for 40 instead of 35 in a couple of spots... maybe ... but the corridor isn't posted "stupid‑low."

The point I was making is different: in a rural locality with limited EMS units, long transport distances, and a corridor that generates high‑severity crashes, the perception of EMS overload becomes part of the enforcement posture. You can argue how strong that factor is, but it's a reasonable operational concern for a town that gets pulled straight into every major incident on 460.

The speed limits themselves aren't the issue.
The EMS burden is.

[cockroachking]

Can NY get this level of scrutiny by AARoads next?

Oh please, New York is bad, but not even the worst in the Northeast. That would be Rhode Island IMO, with more enforcement, and speed limits that make Connecticut of all places look like the wild west.

Also, NYSDOT has likely one of the most restrictive policies on regulatory work zone speed limit reductions in the nation (see page 93 of HDM Chapter 16). I once got an earful from Traffic & Safety for requesting a 55 mph Work Zone Speed Limit in a 65 zone for an overnight triple lane closure without barrier.

(personal opinion)

[sprjus4]

Elisha, I'm not arguing for artificially low limits. US‑460's posted limits are standard for an undivided four‑lane with 10.5‑foot lanes, inadequate shoulders, and a series of small towns. There are 10 brief sections with turn lanes, maybe 2 miles out of the 49. The rural sections at 55, the town transitions at 45, and the 35s in Wakefield and Waverly and Windsor are all within normal practice for that geometry. You could make a case for 40 instead of 35 in a couple of spots... maybe ... but the corridor isn't posted "stupid‑low."

Well, then there's Prince George County where they lowered ~6 miles from 55 mph to 50 mph, where everyone runs 60+ mph anyways because it is no different than the 55 mph zones.

https://www.12onyourside.com/story/19577780/speed-limit-to-be-lowered-on-route-460-in-prince-george/

Bottom line, US-460 is outright dangerous and VDOT has seemingly no interest to improve it.

[Beltway]

Elisha, I'm not arguing for artificially low limits. US‑460's posted limits are standard for an undivided four‑lane with 10.5‑foot lanes, inadequate shoulders, and a series of small towns. There are 10 brief sections with turn lanes, maybe 2 miles out of the 49. The rural sections at 55, the town transitions at 45, and the 35s in Wakefield and Waverly and Windsor are all within normal practice for that geometry. You could make a case for 40 instead of 35 in a couple of spots... maybe ... but the corridor isn't posted "stupid‑low."

Well, then there's Prince George County where they lowered ~6 miles from 55 mph to 50 mph, where everyone runs 60+ mph anyways because it is no different than the 55 mph zones.
https://www.12onyourside.com/story/19577780/speed-limit-to-be-lowered-on-route-460-in-prince-george/
Bottom line, US-460 is outright dangerous and VDOT has seemingly no interest to improve it.

As it said, higher crash rates. I set the cruise at 58 or 60 and have never been stopped.

That 49-mile section of US-460 is substandard, 42 feet of pavement, 4-lane undivided, mostly with shoulders not wide enough to stop on, some places that are prone to flooding, poor vertical alignment, no town bypasses, pavement that needs total replacement at least on the outer lanes. There have been at least 10 places where left turn lanes were installed.

Per VDOT news release --
"RICHMOND, Nov. 17, 2005 - The Commonwealth Transportation Board (CTB) today approved the location for a new Route 460 that would be built south of the existing road, providing an east-west transportation link connecting I-295 in the Petersburg region to Route 58 in Suffolk."

"The new road would be a four-lane divided highway with interchanges at towns and major secondary roads."

A $1.4 billion contract was awarded in 2016 after a full NEPA EIS process was completed and signed by FHWA. Political shenanigans by a new governor stopped it dead. For $1.4 billion we get 49 miles of Interstate-standard highway that will be adequate for decades into the future. Would have been a bargain at $28 million per mile.

There were at least 5 different functions for this highway, including interstate, interregional, and regional. The toll would have been a modest $3.50. It would have provided an Interstate-standard highway between the Richmond-Petersburg area and South Hampton Roads that would have avoided the Hampton Roads tunnels. It would have obviated or at least forestalled the need for widening projects on I-64.

This highway segment has needed to be upgraded into a modern 4-lane divided high-speed highway since the 1970s. Upgrading entirely along the existing alignment would still cost about 1/2 of the full relocation, and have about 60% of the environmental impacts, as plenty of wetlands would be impacted by wider lanes and wider shoulders and raising the grade in flood-prone areas. Windsor definitely needs to be bypassed, and Waverly and Wakefield need it too, if this is to be high-speed route; so that would mean that about 1/3 of the route would be on relocation, and that increases the cost and environmental impacts considerably, and then that would create six "flying junctions" with the existing highway, which would add cost and complexity. It's better IMHO to just relocate the whole 51-mile segment and avoid human and environmental impacts as much as practicable.

As far as what to do today? I don't favor trying to upgrade the existing highway other than installing a few more left turning sections.

There is no good way to segment that US-460 Freeway plan given the railroad making it very difficult to build temporary tie-ins. Another beauty of that aforementioned project is that it would have built all at once and opening in entirety in one segment between I-295 and the Suffolk Bypass.

[sprjus4]

The former project is a great idea, and it's a shame it was never built. However, with it being 10 years removed from being canceled, what is VDOT's next plan?