Charlotte

[Rothman]

...I will stick to my previous understanding that the STIP requires NCDOT to widen this section of I-77 if the I-77 South express toll lanes is not carried forth.

STIPs don't require anyone to do anything. 

That was certainly the case until recently.  Under the new STIP system (Statewide Priority 40%; Regional Priority 30%; District Priority 30%) the appropriate NCDOT branch now has a fiscal responsibility to spend the allocated budget on each of the projects identified in the priority identified.  IIRC, widening I-77 south of Charlotte to the stateline was the highest priority of all projects.  Also keep in mind that under State Law, NCDOT cannot refer any projects to the North Carolina Turnpike Authority, only the Regional MPO can.  The way I see it, Charlotte just stuck NCDOT with the entire bill for widening I-77 (albeit at whatever cashflow rate the State can eke out these days).

STIPs don't require anyone to do anything.  Depends on MPO rules what happens if a project sponsor doesn't authorize/obligate its funding and doesn't delay or remove the project phase.  Worst case scenario the funding just plops back on the MPO table and if NCDOT let that happen without a Plan B, their capital program manager should be fired.

However, your entire comment has me wondering whether the STIP priority for the I-77 South widening was based solely on a traffic planning formula (of which the Regional MPO request was a big factor in the calculation), or if the original MPO-preferred funding strategy (PPP) skewed that calculus.  Either way, NCDOT really does needs a Plan B.  But if the STIP was dependent on the PPP funding strategy then NCDOT has a much bigger problem as the funding for other high-priority Statewide projects could be skewed in any recalculation.

Meh.  I'd bet they can just swap projects in and out of their priority list.  Well, now we have another highest priority...

I say the state should just fund a 4th general purpose lane for I-77 South. Everything about the I-77 North Express Lanes arrangement has been insulting to citizens with the underutilization of the additional capacity from overpriced initial toll rates and the lanes not even functioning like Express Lanes are supposed to (tolls only rise once 45mph minimum free flow cannot be maintained.)

I'll never understand how people would even consider another deal with Cintra for the 77 South rebuild.

Couldn't the state just start widening I-77 in smaller sections which will take several years and expect more funding to come along for the final segment later on?

* * * * * * *

I've been trying to contact the appropriate state officials to suggest raising NC's state gas tax which with the storm damage every other year decimating already limited annual funding.

Plus gas in NC is often cheaper today than in SC and GA. Look at the difference with GA:

GA State Gas Tax:

34 cents per gallon
18,000 miles or 35,000 lane miles

NC State Gas Tax:

41 cents per gallon
80,000+ miles

7 cents per gallon more for 40,000 miles of additional maintenance responsibility.

I wish someone could get the right people to consider that NC is falling behind other states who are collecting more now.

@Rothman The I-77 project is not subject to being swapped in the Charlotte MPO priority list.  It's a Statewide project, and isn't subject to regional/local funding limits (the MPO does have to have the project on its list for Federal reasons, IIRC.)  As the project was requested using toll money (either state-run or 3P) a change to the funding source would typically have it re-submitted for priority.  Money outside the usual NCDOT funding mechanisms (I'm including toll revenue here for the sake of discussion) do increase the chance of a project being rated higher and/or sooner.

*shrug*

In my environment, this situation would lead to NCDOT having more flexibility in terms of when the project would actually occur, not less.

But, I come from a state where the DOT always has the nuclear option when it comes to MPO negotiations: Only providing to the MPO what is federally required.  Granted, that is if the DOT is willing to deal with any aftermath.

Anyway, if a funding scheme falls apart in NY, it is the State that holds all the cards in terms of how the project is repackaged, if that is even desired.  You just go to the MPO and get the project amended on the TIP any which may you want.  If it's above and beyond any suballocation to the MPO, all the better, since it doesn't count towards their fiscal constraint with FHWA.

If the MPO ever refused to add a project to their TIP -- yoink.  Funds flow through the DOT or whatever toll money here to the MPO and the faucet can get turned off.  And then, if the project is popular, you blame the MPO for mucking things up and so on and so forth.

Anyway, if NC legislatively sends state money directly to MPOs bypassing NCDOT...that's just beyond stupid.  MPOs exist to manage federal funds in metropolitan areas, not state.

[Rothman]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

[Plutonic Panda]

If they need to just put it back on their plan and build the project.

[jdunlop]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

Besides being a blue city in a state with a red legislature (or probably because of) the basis of the bill amendment is that the MPO requested the project, and then opposed it after $60M of design/planning work was done.

[Rothman]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

Besides being a blue city in a state with a red legislature (or probably because of) the basis of the bill amendment is that the MPO requested the project, and then opposed it after $60M of design/planning work was done.

This whole NC idea that the MPO is more than just a committee of project sponsors is foreign to me.  The MPO does not equate to just the City of Charlotte, but all project sponsors within its metropolitan area.  So when I see a headline that says "City," I don't equate that with an MPO (NYMTC's NYC TCC notwithstanding ).

[jdunlop]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

Besides being a blue city in a state with a red legislature (or probably because of) the basis of the bill amendment is that the MPO requested the project, and then opposed it after $60M of design/planning work was done.

This whole NC idea that the MPO is more than just a committee of project sponsors is foreign to me.  The MPO does not equate to just the City of Charlotte, but all project sponsors within its metropolitan area.  So when I see a headline that says "City," I don't equate that with an MPO (NYMTC's NYC TCC notwithstanding ).

When I say "Charlotte MPO", it really means "Charlotte AREA" MPO, which includes the other municipalities in Mecklenburg County as well as those in union, Cabarrus and Gaston County (I may be missing one or two further out.)  Sorry if that was confusing things.  In the case of I-77 project, it was mainly the City of Charlotte that opposed it; others (Monroe for instance) went along with them until the payback bill was introduced and then they reversed their negative vote.

 It is my understanding that a local MPO must include a federally funded project in their list for funding to be allowed.  NC MPOs do manage some funding/projects independent of the State DOT.

[Rothman]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

Besides being a blue city in a state with a red legislature (or probably because of) the basis of the bill amendment is that the MPO requested the project, and then opposed it after $60M of design/planning work was done.

This whole NC idea that the MPO is more than just a committee of project sponsors is foreign to me.  The MPO does not equate to just the City of Charlotte, but all project sponsors within its metropolitan area.  So when I see a headline that says "City," I don't equate that with an MPO (NYMTC's NYC TCC notwithstanding ).

When I say "Charlotte MPO", it really means "Charlotte AREA" MPO, which includes the other municipalities in Mecklenburg County as well as those in union, Cabarrus and Gaston County (I may be missing one or two further out.)  Sorry if that was confusing things.  In the case of I-77 project, it was mainly the City of Charlotte that opposed it; others (Monroe for instance) went along with them until the payback bill was introduced and then they reversed their negative vote.

 It is my understanding that a local MPO must include a federally funded project in their list for funding to be allowed.  NC MPOs do manage some funding/projects independent of the State DOT.

Now you are speaking my language.  Still interesting how the reimbursement falls in the City's responsibility.

[architect77]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

Besides being a blue city in a state with a red legislature (or probably because of) the basis of the bill amendment is that the MPO requested the project, and then opposed it after $60M of design/planning work was done.

This whole NC idea that the MPO is more than just a committee of project sponsors is foreign to me.  The MPO does not equate to just the City of Charlotte, but all project sponsors within its metropolitan area.  So when I see a headline that says "City," I don't equate that with an MPO (NYMTC's NYC TCC notwithstanding ).

When I say "Charlotte MPO", it really means "Charlotte AREA" MPO, which includes the other municipalities in Mecklenburg County as well as those in union, Cabarrus and Gaston County (I may be missing one or two further out.)  Sorry if that was confusing things.  In the case of I-77 project, it was mainly the City of Charlotte that opposed it; others (Monroe for instance) went along with them until the payback bill was introduced and then they reversed their negative vote.

 It is my understanding that a local MPO must include a federally funded project in their list for funding to be allowed.  NC MPOs do manage some funding/projects independent of the State DOT.

Now you are speaking my language.  Still interesting how the reimbursement falls in the City's responsibility.

The republican-led state legislature's top officials all seem to be from places near Charlotte and the Western half of the state, just sayin'.

I do not support this proposed project as is, because to me the bulk of the high cost which necessitates another foreign lender agreement lies in so much concrete infrastructure to accommodate transitioning for multiple elevations. The renderings I saw showed crazy dual lanes that seemed to be zigging and zagging to access the upper lanes and it looks as though drivers would always be having to pay careful attention to the lanes angling to and from the general purpose lanes.

I would like to see all of the lanes stay on the ground and just try to pay more so property owners do what's best for the city's residents and let go of their properties for a less expensive and more value driven widening project.

But they won't ever do that because people decided that all eminent domain happened only to minorities' projects last century and they must resist that now no matter how much sense it makes for the city.

I wish they would sell for above market rate but am glad anyone is rejecting the proposed plan as is.

I think the state is just miffed after working on detailed plans for I-77 for 2 years and receiving approvals from the community all the way up until the 11th hour. For the engineers that designed the project in house for a significant chunk of time, all of their efforts seem to have been for nothing.

I can't believe locals would ever consider another loan from this foreign lender. But that deluxe I-85 alone for Charlotte is unrivaled anywhere else in the state and I-485 also is nicer than anything throughout the rest of the state, so it's understandable why it will be decades before the area is up for major funding again.

I repeat on every thread and Facebook to anyone that the NC gas tax needs to be increased significantly. 41 cents per gallon for 80,000 miles of roads is way too low and near the mean for what other states collect, 5 cts gallon up to 70 cts gallon.

[Great Lakes Roads]

https://www.thecharlotteledger.com/p/breaking-city-council-votes-to-back-i-77-toll-lanes

IT'S BACK AFTER A 7-4 VOTE!

[The Ghostbuster]

But will it actually be constructed? Plenty of projects have been revived, only to be cancelled again because of x y and z.

[Great Lakes Roads]

In the October letting, NCDOT will be doing some work around the I-77/NC-73 interchange in Huntersville (exit 25).

PLANS

[Great Lakes Roads]

https://www.qcnews.com/news/u-s/north-carolina/mecklenburg-county/two-members-resign-after-crtpo-votes-to-move-forward-with-i-77-south-toll-lane-project/

APPROVED with a 64-5 vote!

[WashuOtaku]

https://www.qcnews.com/news/u-s/north-carolina/mecklenburg-county/two-members-resign-after-crtpo-votes-to-move-forward-with-i-77-south-toll-lane-project/

APPROVED with a 64-5 vote!

Would not be as controversial if it was not a public-private partnership. Cintra does not care about improving traffic congestion, just money; we learned that lesson with the existing I-77 toll lanes they manage now... always empty lanes, because of high toll rates.

[brian440i]

Toll-77...  Wouldn't it be nice it that Toll Lane was Truck Only/Not Rich Only.

[WashuOtaku]

Toll-77...  Wouldn't it be nice it that Toll Lane was Truck Only/Not Rich Only.

It would be completely empty as all the truckers would finally discover I-485.

[Plutonic Panda]

https://www.qcnews.com/news/u-s/north-carolina/mecklenburg-county/two-members-resign-after-crtpo-votes-to-move-forward-with-i-77-south-toll-lane-project/

APPROVED with a 64-5 vote!

Would not be as controversial if it was not a public-private partnership. Cintra does not care about improving traffic congestion, just money; we learned that lesson with the existing I-77 toll lanes they manage now... always empty lanes, because of high toll rates.

They're not a charity, they're a company that wants to make money, and the people that approve this toll lane to be built should've put a provision to prevent ridiculous prices for people to use these toll lanes. So how are they making money if they're always empty?

Is Charlotte's traffic situation so bad where it would be feasible for a private company to come in and build toll lanes that would generate profit?

[Strider]

My question is: why is Cintra only involved with I-77 toll roads in Charlotte? Why don't they use NC Turnpike Authority as it manages tolls on I-485 Express Lanes? Maybe I am missing something but it does not make any sense to me....

[ARMOURERERIC]

Just saw the article headline that the City will be on the hook for the $64m.  Man, NC somehow legislated that into their budget ("If you oppose it and cause NCDOT or whoever to kill the project and trigger a reimbursement, you're on the hook to reimburse the State")?

Wonder if the City could sue over this.  I take it since the MPO was so involved some federal funding was involved.  City could argue the State is circumventing NEPA and other federal regulations by essentially not allowing them to oppose the project.

Besides being a blue city in a state with a red legislature (or probably because of) the basis of the bill amendment is that the MPO requested the project, and then opposed it after $60M of design/planning work was done.

This whole NC idea that the MPO is more than just a committee of project sponsors is foreign to me.  The MPO does not equate to just the City of Charlotte, but all project sponsors within its metropolitan area.  So when I see a headline that says "City," I don't equate that with an MPO (NYMTC's NYC TCC notwithstanding ).

When I say "Charlotte MPO", it really means "Charlotte AREA" MPO, which includes the other municipalities in Mecklenburg County as well as those in union, Cabarrus and Gaston County (I may be missing one or two further out.)  Sorry if that was confusing things.  In the case of I-77 project, it was mainly the City of Charlotte that opposed it; others (Monroe for instance) went along with them until the payback bill was introduced and then they reversed their negative vote.

 It is my understanding that a local MPO must include a federally funded project in their list for funding to be allowed.  NC MPOs do manage some funding/projects independent of the State DOT.

When the past vote to kill the project occurred, there were some local articles about how Monroe's representative voted against the project against direction from the city.  Frankly, I've been working 60 hour weeks for about a month so I've not been able to keep on top of what's really going on with this.

[Plutonic Panda]

Another article on this project. Hopefully they get started soonZ:

https://www.wfae.org/politics/2026-09-23/regional-transportation-board-approves-i-77-toll-lanes-project-after-months-of-whiplash

I looked at the far north end of Interstate 77, and I realized it's only two free lanes with two toll lanes each way. No matter, it's still congested. They should've added a free GP lane with that project.

[LM117]

My question is: why is Cintra only involved with I-77 toll roads in Charlotte? Why don't they use NC Turnpike Authority as it manages tolls on I-485 Express Lanes? Maybe I am missing something but it does not make any sense to me....

You'd have to ask Thom Tillis.

[Strider]

My question is: why is Cintra only involved with I-77 toll roads in Charlotte? Why don't they use NC Turnpike Authority as it manages tolls on I-485 Express Lanes? Maybe I am missing something but it does not make any sense to me....

You'd have to ask Thom Tillis.

That is probably why he isn't seeking reelection. lol

[architect77]

My question is: why is Cintra only involved with I-77 toll roads in Charlotte? Why don't they use NC Turnpike Authority as it manages tolls on I-485 Express Lanes? Maybe I am missing something but it does not make any sense to me....

You'd have to ask Thom Tillis.

Thom Tillis has nothing to do with this. Former governor Pat McCrory is the sole reason for the foreign lenders putting up the money to build the I-77 Express Lanes North of Charlotte.

From 2010-2024 The Charlotte region got the lion's share of major funding for I-85 and I-485's construction, widenings and high standards such as concrete pavement, highway lighting, etc.

The region would not be up for major highway funding for at least the next 20 years as different parts of the state all wait for their turn for major funding for construction projects. McCrory wanted the I-77 project to be built regardless and formed the unfortunate deal with foreign lenders who got guarantees that no parallel road would be built or expanded near I-77 for 50 to 60 years as they were repaid with interest for providing funding. Since then, they have set initial toll rates to high which has reduced willingness to fully use the Express Lanes McCrory could have gotten the state to buy them out back before costs of construction increased 70% from 2018 to today

But it didn't happen and today buying them out is out of the question as NCDOT's budget is stretched beyond what it takes to maintain their former high standards.

Cintra is a foreign lender just trying to recover their money and profit. Express Lanes have a different purpose from a typical tolled highway. Express Lanes are designed to remain free flowing through dynamic tolling to prevent over use at given time. Tolled roadways in NC are just about getting use and benefits ahead of schedule by borrowing to not have to wait for state funding for up to 20 years.

The NC Turnpike Authority is a transparent agency of the state that has repeatedly done what's in the best interests of NC Citizens and users of the tolled roadways. They have merely delivered projects to areas of the state many years before they'd be up for major funding. The bonds are sold by the state I think and they make every effort to reduce the total cost and repay the loans as quickly as possible after which the tolls are removed.

[Plutonic Panda]

That's interesting, so you're basically asking to make a deal with the devil to get a road expanded. It's not enough that they can set ridiculously high toll rates to where the road becomes not practical for most commuters, so LOS never changes, but you can't expand adjacent roads as well?

You know that kind of changes my opinion on the toll lanes a bit. I didn't know that tidbit of information. I just knew that the toll rates were high, and I thought maybe some kind of deal could be worked out to where they could be bought out, or perhaps subsidized to some extent. But if you got so much stuff in there to wear, it's like you can't even expand nearby roads. I don't see what the point in even trying to work with them at all is, we're pretty much stuck with what they got until they can be bought out and then maybe then should the South toll roads be built.

Either way, I don't have a dog in this fight. It's not a hill that I'm gonna die on. I just like to see bigger highways. My opinion is changing a bit on toll lanes because I'm seeing how much extra room they require as Bobby has pointed out in Texas. But frankly, I don't even know how stuff like this is legal. for a private company to be allowed to build toll lanes and then say no other public roads could be expanded.

I wonder how that would play out in court. If North Carolina just ignore it and expanded in the adjacent road anyways and they got sued, what the judge would say.

[wriddle082]

That's interesting, so you're basically asking to make a deal with the devil to get a road expanded. It's not enough that they can set ridiculously high toll rates to where the road becomes not practical for most commuters, so LOS never changes, but you can't expand adjacent roads as well?

You know that kind of changes my opinion on the toll lanes a bit. I didn't know that tidbit of information. I just knew that the toll rates were high, and I thought maybe some kind of deal could be worked out to where they could be bought out, or perhaps subsidized to some extent. But if you got so much stuff in there to wear, it's like you can't even expand nearby roads. I don't see what the point in even trying to work with them at all is, we're pretty much stuck with what they got until they can be bought out and then maybe then should the South toll roads be built.

Either way, I don't have a dog in this fight. It's not a hill that I'm gonna die on. I just like to see bigger highways. My opinion is changing a bit on toll lanes because I'm seeing how much extra room they require as Bobby has pointed out in Texas. But frankly, I don't even know how stuff like this is legal. for a private company to be allowed to build toll lanes and then say no other public roads could be expanded.

I wonder how that would play out in court. If North Carolina just ignore it and expanded in the adjacent road anyways and they got sued, what the judge would say.

One of said adjacent roads, US 21, is multiplexed with I-77 from Cornelius through Davidson to the southernmost Mooresville exit.  And it's not a multiplex of convenience either.  They follow two separate all-land causeways over two eastern branches of Lake Norman, which I believe were originally US 21 before I-77 was built.  I don't think NCDOT currently wants to deal with the environmental red tape hassle of truly widening the causeways (I'm sure that neither the red tape nor Lake Norman existed when I-77 was first constructed in the 60's). The closest true adjacent road to that stretch, NC 115 (Old Statesville Rd.) is only two lanes, and is absolutely brutal going through Cornelius and Davidson during most hours of the day.

Now they are currently widening NC 150 heading west out of Mooresville to NC 16 near Denver.  I currently use I-485, NC 16, backroads, and I-40 to avoid this entire area when heading through the area north on I-77 to points north for work.  Once the NC 150 widening is finished, taking it b/w NC 16 and I-77 might be a viable alternative.  NC 16 is four lanes and mostly expressway-grade from NW Charlotte up to Newton/Conover.

[jdunlop]

One of said adjacent roads, US 21, is multiplexed with I-77 from Cornelius through Davidson to the southernmost Mooresville exit.  And it's not a multiplex of convenience either.  They follow two separate all-land causeways over two eastern branches of Lake Norman, which I believe were originally US 21 before I-77 was built.  I don't think NCDOT currently wants to deal with the environmental red tape hassle of truly widening the causeways (I'm sure that neither the red tape nor Lake Norman existed when I-77 was first constructed in the 60's). The closest true adjacent road to that stretch, NC 115 (Old Statesville Rd.) is only two lanes, and is absolutely brutal going through Cornelius and Davidson during most hours of the day.

You may want to take another look at the Davidson-Mooresville causeway.

Express lanes were added to the causeway when the toll lanes were extended to Mooresville, although the causeway itself was not widened.

A new (or more accurately improved) connection between Davidson and Cornelius along Potts St. is either finished or close to finished.  The roundabout that ties it back to 115 just south of the railroad bridge on 115 landed on top of a friend's house.

One of my early signal timing jobs was out at 77/150 (1990).  I was wondering what I was doing out there, there were the two ramp signals and one just west of the interchange, and a lonely small shopping center I think just east of the NB ramp.  It's grown a bit in the past 36 years.  The 150 widening project was supposed to start around 2012; funding shortfalls and project scope creep (traffic projections kept growing higher) delayed the project.