Tempting drivers to run red lights? It could very well be

[Roadrunner75]

Here's a recent article in NJ's Star Ledger about a state assemblyman who has been very aggressive in getting rid of red light cameras in NJ.  He's now pushing to have NJ not provide driver information to other states when they attempt to ticket a NJ driver for a red light or speed camera violation.  Thus, I could blast through all the lights and speed cameras in DC with impunity (yes, they will still get me somehow, no matter what laws NJ passes...)  There is more information in some of the related articles at the bottom of the page.

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/senate_transportation_chairman_wants_to_hit_the_gas_on_anti-traffic_camera_bill_the_auditor.html#incart_m-rpt-1

This guy was already instrumental in getting rid of 3 notorious red light cameras in Brick, NJ that were known for nailing tons of people with right on red.  I would just sit there myself, and turn right only on green.

Among the problems with the law as noted by others is that it would invite retaliation against NJ drivers, cause other states to deny information to NJ for their own driver's infractions and would probably be relatively easy to get around anyway (they'll still get the driver information, even if NJ doesn't give it directly to the camera companies).

I'm all for dumping signal and speed cameras, but a bill targeting other states is not the way to go about it.

[vdeane]

What if red-light cameras were able to detect speeds, and under a certain speed, the camera wouldn't take a photo?

You'd still be getting the people who misjudged the yellow or were in the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" point (where a vehicle traveling at the speed limit had a green, and in order to stop before the light went red would have to slam on the brakes so hard they leave tire skid marks; I know of a few such intersections in upstate NY).

The problem with the latter is that, in urban areas, it tends to create gridlock, as folks may legally enter the intersection on a green, then get stopped in the middle, and are still there well after the red.

Doesn't seem to be a problem in upstate NY.  Of course, you're not supposed to just sit in the red; you're supposed to complete your movement ASAP, which is usually in the first couple seconds after the light changes.  Most urban signals here are simple two-phase timed things where it's very easy to do this in the all-red phase.

[algorerhythms]

How many people do you know that run red lights on purpose? Most of these tickets are going to people who are trying to "squeeze the yellow out of the light," or those that stop a few feet ahead of the stop line.

I see it frequently at the pedestrian crossing lights around here (as far as I know, Norman does not use traffic cameras). A lot of people simply ignore those lights, because who's going to win: an SUV, or a pedestrian?

[jakeroot]

How many people do you know that run red lights on purpose? Most of these tickets are going to people who are trying to "squeeze the yellow out of the light," or those that stop a few feet ahead of the stop line.

I see it frequently at the pedestrian crossing lights around here (as far as I know, Norman does not use traffic cameras). A lot of people simply ignore those lights, because who's going to win: an SUV, or a pedestrian?

Signals like these?

[algorerhythms]

This is one of the signals: Street View image

[jakeroot]

This is one of the signals: Street View image

I find it very strange that people are willfully running red lights . . . perhaps it's just that my part of the country is overly courteous? Lol.

[jeffandnicole]

This is one of the signals: Street View image

I couldn't see the signals until I looked closely.  Maybe that's why people are running them - suburban area without overhead signals.  Keeping them off to the sides of the road is almost a guaranteed recipe for people running them unintentionally.

[Big John]

This is one of the signals: Street View image

I panned to the next set of those signals and it said left turn allowed on red.

[jakeroot]

This is one of the signals: Street View image

I couldn't see the signals until I looked closely.  Maybe that's why people are running them - suburban area without overhead signals.  Keeping them off to the sides of the road is almost a guaranteed recipe for people running them unintentionally.

Not necessarily. If they set the stop lines back, filled in the center median with concrete, put some railings along the edge of the road, installed a bike box, and then inserted the signals along the side of the road of which you approach, with side-facing signals (a la metered freeway entrances), I have a feeling the side-mounted signals would work fine. Let's be honest, side-mounted signals look miles better. I've always loved them, but they work best when closer to the stop line. Most areas that I'm familiar with that use side-mounted signals (like DC) set them very far away, where overhead signals work far better.

[algorerhythms]

This is one of the signals: Street View image

I panned to the next set of those signals and it said left turn allowed on red.

Lefts on red into Van Vleet Oval were allowed, since the pedestrian crossing is on the far side of the intersection. Rights on red from westbound Lindsey Street weren't allowed. Since that picture was taken, Van Vleet Oval has been closed and is being converted into a pedestrian walkway.

[bugo]

The problem is not so much that they generate revenue, but rather that the revenue generation has a tendency to encourage governments to behave unethically (shortening signal cycles, hyperenforcement of laws that don't materially affect safety like ticketing drivers for stopping beyond the stop line or not coming to a complete stop before completing a right turn on red, etc.)

Governments don't need encouragement to act unethically.  They do a good job of it on their own.

[1995hoo]

I've seen quite a few people blatantly ignoring HAWK signals, not even slowing down when they're showing a steady red.

[Brandon]

I've seen quite a few people blatantly ignoring HAWK signals, not even slowing down when they're showing a steady red.

Without training and recognition, are they aware of what they should do at a HAWK signal?

[1995hoo]

I've seen quite a few people blatantly ignoring HAWK signals, not even slowing down when they're showing a steady red.

Without training and recognition, are they aware of what they should do at a HAWK signal?

If there's a sign saying "STOP ON [red circle icon]" and the light is red, what else do you need?

[jakeroot]

I've seen quite a few people blatantly ignoring HAWK signals, not even slowing down when they're showing a steady red.

Without training and recognition, are they aware of what they should do at a HAWK signal?

If there's a sign saying "STOP ON [red circle icon]" and the light is red, what else do you need?

People ignore "no turn on red" signs all the time; who's to say they'll read this one?

I don't think the HAWK signal is as intuitive as the FYA, but I think with proper media coverage, that 97% compliance could increase dramatically.

Perhaps we could do a public information film, like they used to do in the UK:

[Roadrunner75]

So I just looked up HAWK signals.  Why would we use these over regular traffic signals?

[SSOWorld]

So I just looked up HAWK signals.  Why would we use these over regular traffic signals?

just to think up something new - otherwise boredom sets in...

[froggie]

HAWK signal has one advantage over a regular traffic signal:  before the end of the ped cycle, the solid red goes to a flashing red, at which point waiting cars can proceed if there are no pedestrians present.

[Roadrunner75]

It sounds like it would create a lot of confusion for a relatively minimal advantage.  If I came up on it while it was in the alternating red light phase, I'd be looking for a train...

[jakeroot]

As with anything new, there is going to backlash and questioning. It will take time and effort, but I think given a few years, it will be discovered that the minute advantage HAWK signals have over standard signals will allow the new signal to reach a wider audience and increase nationwide compliance.

That said, why don't standard signals, used for pedestrian crossings, go into a flashing red phase after the solid red phase, and then back to green? Seems like it would get the job done the same. Sort of like the Pelican crossings in the UK with a flashing yellow interval at the end of the solid red phase (two posts in a row where I referenced jolly old England ).

[froggie]

That said, why don't standard signals, used for pedestrian crossings, go into a flashing red phase after the solid red phase, and then back to green? Seems like it would get the job done the same.

MUTCD doesn't allow that...hence why the HAWK was developed as a work-around.

[jakeroot]

That said, why don't standard signals, used for pedestrian crossings, go into a flashing red phase after the solid red phase, and then back to green? Seems like it would get the job done the same.

MUTCD doesn't allow that...hence why the HAWK was developed as a work-around.

Is it inanely difficult for the FHWA to remove articles from the MUTCD, especially if there's proof that the MUTCD's "rule" is unnecessary?

[1995hoo]

Either way, the original question was whether people should be expected to stop at a red HAWK signal when they haven't seen one before. Here's a picture of one near where I live (not the one I mentioned earlier in this thread, but the sign and the lights look the same). If you approached this and saw a steady red light, why would you think it was OK not to stop?

[spooky]

Either way, the original question was whether people should be expected to stop at a red HAWK signal when they haven't seen one before. Here's a picture of one near where I live (not the one I mentioned earlier in this thread, but the sign and the lights look the same). If you approached this and saw a steady red light, why would you think it was OK not to stop?

but you are supposed to stop on the steady red. You're allowed to proceed during the flashing red if pedestrians aren't present in the crosswalk.

[1995hoo]

Right, but what I said was that I've routinely seen people failing even to slow down when they approach a HAWK signal displaying a steady red. Brandon then replied, "Without training and recognition, are they aware of what they should do at a HAWK signal?" My point was that you don't need any special "training" to recognize that when the sign says "Stop on Red" or "Stop on [red circle icon]," and you see a steady red light, you have to stop. Do you disagree with any of that?

I'm not sure where anyone other than new drivers will get "training" as to any new traffic-control device, whether a HAWK or anything else, because US states do not re-test anyone with the exception of some states that make you re-take the knowledge test if you got too many moving violations since your last license renewal (in Virginia, two moving violations will cause you to have to re-take the test).