Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Beltway]

There's about to be a nice little timeout for you two if you don't knock off baiting each other and taking the bait.

In our e-mails a number of times I have affirmed my efforts to tone things down with Sprjus4, just 2 days ago the last time.

Has he made any such efforts?  He started the argument in this thread, off topic from the Bay Bridge.
 

[Beltway]

I question whether bicycle/pedestrian accommodations should ever be part of a bridge that is that long and that high above the water.

The same question was asked about the WWB path.  It's become quite popular since completion.
I would expect a bike/ped path on any new Bay Bridge to get used.  Perhaps not much by pedestrians (aside from longer-distance runners), but it would certainly get used by bikes, especially if folks between Annapolis and Kent Island would no longer have to hop in a car to bike the Baltimore & Annapolis and Cross Island trails and the path along Route 8.

The WWB path is over a 6,100 foot long bridge that is about 90 feet high.  It is an easy walk.  Alexandria and National Harbor are at either end, major urban areas.

A 6-mile bike ride between the nearest points of interest is another matter, and with low population areas at either end.  Long upgrade for a bike.

Some other D.C. Potomac crossings had proven bike/ped facilities.  Maybe traffic studies will show that a Bay Bridge path would be successful, but I wouldn't compare it to WWB.

[Alps]

There's about to be a nice little timeout for you two if you don't knock off baiting each other and taking the bait.

In our e-mails a number of times I have affirmed my efforts to tone things down with Sprjus4, just 2 days ago the last time.

Has he made any such efforts?  He started the argument in this thread, off topic from the Bay Bridge.
 

No, you are both poking at each other, and both denying it. Therefore, you are both guilty. I refuse to accept either of your entreaties.

[tolbs17]

Just imagine if I ever saw sidewalks and/or bike lanes on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge...

[hbelkins]

^ There comes a point where crossing demand vs. ferry supply becomes cost-ineffective compared to a fixed bridge.  The Bay Bridge is very much in that category.

Base load vis-a-vis peak load, like with power generation. Reserve ferry service for the peak loads. Don't build the base load (bridge) for a few summertime weekends when it goes under-utilized the rest of the year.

Do you honestly think anyone would want to take a ferry when a bridge is so much faster and doesn't involve waiting for the boat?  I honestly avoid ferries unless I need to use one to clinch something, as they're a major hassle and time penalty to deal with.

I'm going to wager a guess here and say that even with a ferry service for peak times, it wouldn't significantly alleviate anything either time-wise or congestion-wise. Of course, the Bay Bridge isn't technically in the DC metro area, and it connects to the very rural Eastern Shore, so of course he'd be against it.

[Beltway]

Do you honestly think anyone would want to take a ferry when a bridge is so much faster and doesn't involve waiting for the boat?  I honestly avoid ferries unless I need to use one to clinch something, as they're a major hassle and time penalty to deal with.

I'm going to wager a guess here and say that even with a ferry service for peak times, it wouldn't significantly alleviate anything either time-wise or congestion-wise. Of course, the Bay Bridge isn't technically in the DC metro area, and it connects to the very rural Eastern Shore, so of course he'd be against it.

A vehicular ferry that carries more than 2,000 per day is rare indeed, especially over that distance.

People underestimate how much sealift capacity it takes to run a high-volume ferry.

The Bay Bridge carries about 70,000 AADT, approaching 100,000 on the busiest days, so you can do the math.

[jeffandnicole]

Not to mention the ferry would potentially be running nearly empty in the direction traffic is light, so there are those additional costs as well.

[Mapmikey]

I question whether bicycle/pedestrian accommodations should ever be part of a bridge that is that long and that high above the water.

The same question was asked about the WWB path.  It's become quite popular since completion.

I would expect a bike/ped path on any new Bay Bridge to get used.  Perhaps not much by pedestrians (aside from longer-distance runners), but it would certainly get used by bikes, especially if folks between Annapolis and Kent Island would no longer have to hop in a car to bike the Baltimore & Annapolis and Cross Island trails and the path along Route 8.

A better comparison might be the Ravenel Bridge in Charleston SC. They built a separated bike/walk path and it gets good use despite the length and height.

[Beltway]

A better comparison might be the Ravenel Bridge in Charleston SC. They built a separated bike/walk path and it gets good use despite the length and height.

Urban areas on each side, at 2.4 miles shorter than the Bay Bridge (5.8 miles between the 2 closest interchanges), plus popular sites of interest on each side.  Thousands of homes on the east side whereby some people would bike-commute to the downtown.

[sprjus4]

The Tappen Zee Bridge replacement is a better, and closer example IMO, about 4 miles between each end, and mostly smaller towns on each side, not a major urban area with a river going thru it, like Charleston.

The new bridge features a shared-use path.

[Alps]

The Tappen Zee Bridge replacement is a better, and closer example IMO, about 4 miles between each end, and mostly smaller towns on each side, not a major urban area with a river going thru it, like Charleston.

The new bridge features a shared-use path.

Still, I think it's a different clientele. People come up the Hudson for scenery and recreation all the time. The Walkway Over the Hudson is over a mile long between access points and gets plenty of use. The GWB is even longer between access points and same deal. So I think there's more of a market up here. There's no comparable long bridge in Maryland. Maybe the Wilson Bridge, which is nearer to DC and gets sparse (but nonzero) traffic. Ultimately, I would only consider a path on the Chesapeake if the residents on either side, particularly the east, indicated a desire to make use of it.

[Beltway]

Still, I think it's a different clientele. People come up the Hudson for scenery and recreation all the time. The Walkway Over the Hudson is over a mile long between access points and gets plenty of use. The GWB is even longer between access points and same deal. So I think there's more of a market up here. There's no comparable long bridge in Maryland. Maybe the Wilson Bridge, which is nearer to DC and gets sparse (but nonzero) traffic. Ultimately, I would only consider a path on the Chesapeake if the residents on either side, particularly the east, indicated a desire to make use of it.

That is my take on it as well.  Generally knowing that area, on the face of it I am skeptical of the Bay Bridge.  But perhaps traffic engineering studies may show otherwise.  We shall see.

[sprjus4]

That is my take on it as well.  Generally knowing that area, on the face of it I am skeptical of the Bay Bridge.  But perhaps RE/T groups may show otherwise.  We shall see.

FTFY

Likely any proposals would not include a multi-use path initially, but RE/T groups would demand they add one.

[cpzilliacus]

The Tappen Zee Bridge replacement is a better, and closer example IMO, about 4 miles between each end, and mostly smaller towns on each side, not a major urban area with a river going thru it, like Charleston.

The new bridge features a shared-use path.

Still, I think it's a different clientele. People come up the Hudson for scenery and recreation all the time. The Walkway Over the Hudson is over a mile long between access points and gets plenty of use. The GWB is even longer between access points and same deal. So I think there's more of a market up here. There's no comparable long bridge in Maryland. Maybe the Wilson Bridge, which is nearer to DC and gets sparse (but nonzero) traffic. Ultimately, I would only consider a path on the Chesapeake if the residents on either side, particularly the east, indicated a desire to make use of it.

It is not terribly far from Annapolis (and fairly flat) to ride a bike to the Western Shore landing of the WPL Bridge.

Sandy Point State Park is also hard by the Western Shore landing.  I think at least on warm days, the presence of a bike path would induce demand to cross.

[Alps]

That is my take on it as well.  Generally knowing that area, on the face of it I am skeptical of the Bay Bridge.  But perhaps RE/T groups may show otherwise.  We shall see.

FTFY

Likely any proposals would not include a multi-use path initially, but RE/T groups would demand they add one.

Okay, now I think you're trolling. Traffic engineering includes pedestrians and bicyclists.

[cpzilliacus]

^ There comes a point where crossing demand vs. ferry supply becomes cost-ineffective compared to a fixed bridge.  The Bay Bridge is very much in that category.

Base load vis-a-vis peak load, like with power generation. Reserve ferry service for the peak loads. Don't build the base load (bridge) for a few summertime weekends when it goes under-utilized the rest of the year.

Do you honestly think anyone would want to take a ferry when a bridge is so much faster and doesn't involve waiting for the boat?  I honestly avoid ferries unless I need to use one to clinch something, as they're a major hassle and time penalty to deal with.

I'm going to wager a guess here and say that even with a ferry service for peak times, it wouldn't significantly alleviate anything either time-wise or congestion-wise. Of course, the Bay Bridge isn't technically in the DC metro area, and it connects to the very rural Eastern Shore, so of course he'd be against it.

Agree that the bridge is not in the D.C. area.  However, due to growth in Queen Anne's County, Maryland, it is now in the Baltimore region, and Queen Anne's County participates in the Baltimore Regional Transportation Board (BRTB), the metropolitan planning organization for Baltimore and surrounding counties.

The bridge does not (as of Second Quarter 2019) show as one of the most congested sections of the regional highway network, but I think the data from Third Quarter 2019 may tell a different story.

[jeffandnicole]

^ There comes a point where crossing demand vs. ferry supply becomes cost-ineffective compared to a fixed bridge.  The Bay Bridge is very much in that category.

Base load vis-a-vis peak load, like with power generation. Reserve ferry service for the peak loads. Don't build the base load (bridge) for a few summertime weekends when it goes under-utilized the rest of the year.

Do you honestly think anyone would want to take a ferry when a bridge is so much faster and doesn't involve waiting for the boat?  I honestly avoid ferries unless I need to use one to clinch something, as they're a major hassle and time penalty to deal with.

I'm going to wager a guess here and say that even with a ferry service for peak times, it wouldn't significantly alleviate anything either time-wise or congestion-wise. Of course, the Bay Bridge isn't technically in the DC metro area, and it connects to the very rural Eastern Shore, so of course he'd be against it.

Agree that the bridge is not in the D.C. area.  However, due to growth in Queen Anne's County, Maryland, it is now in the Baltimore region, and Queen Anne's County participates in the Baltimore Regional Transportation Board (BRTB), the metropolitan planning organization for Baltimore and surrounding counties.

The bridge does not (as of Second Quarter 2019) show as one of the most congested sections of the regional highway network, but I think the data from Third Quarter 2019 may tell a different story.

In NJ, the Route 55/47/347 corridor heading to the shore would never show up on any normal congestion report.  However, when they include it specifically for the summer, it becomes a Top 10 need (I think it was #9 in the entire state).  So occasionally these need to normalize/right size/buzzword these reports to show a concern that is abnormally significant outside of the normal traffic volume survey periods.

[Beltway]

Chesapeake Bay Bridge Rehab Spawns Big Backups
October 23, 2019
https://www.enr.com/articles/48000-chesapeake-bay-bridge-rehab-spawns-big-backups

Maryland is taking emergency measures to alleviate extensive congestion resulting from deck replacement work on the William Preston Lane Jr. Memorial Bridge, which carries U.S. Routes 50 and 301 across the Chesapeake Bay.  Begun in late September, the two-year, $27-million replacement of a deteriorated lane on the toll bridge’s 4.3-mile westbound span has caused peak travel time backups on both sides of up to 14 miles, according to media reports.  In addition to removing toll barriers, the state is working with contractor Wagman Heavy Civil to explore the use of alternate milling methods and overlay materials, establishing multiple work zones and other measures to accelerate the project.
. . . . . . . .

I drove across it yesterday.  Much of the length of the right lane has been closed with a temporary concrete barrier.  No congestion at about 7:00 pm.

[Alps]

Chesapeake Bay Bridge Rehab Spawns Big Backups
October 23, 2019
https://www.enr.com/articles/48000-chesapeake-bay-bridge-rehab-spawns-big-backups

Maryland is taking emergency measures to alleviate extensive congestion resulting from deck replacement work on the William Preston Lane Jr. Memorial Bridge, which carries U.S. Routes 50 and 301 across the Chesapeake Bay.  Begun in late September, the two-year, $27-million replacement of a deteriorated lane on the toll bridge’s 4.3-mile westbound span has caused peak travel time backups on both sides of up to 14 miles, according to media reports.  In addition to removing toll barriers, the state is working with contractor Wagman Heavy Civil to explore the use of alternate milling methods and overlay materials, establishing multiple work zones and other measures to accelerate the project.
. . . . . . . .

I drove across it yesterday.  Much of the length of the right lane has been closed with a temporary concrete barrier.  No congestion at about 7:00 pm.

That is a horrible article for ENR and really lowers my esteem for them. There are no technical details as to how any possible measures could alleviate congestion, and that's basically the entire article right there. Am I missing something?

[Beltway]

Chesapeake Bay Bridge Rehab Spawns Big Backups
October 23, 2019
https://www.enr.com/articles/48000-chesapeake-bay-bridge-rehab-spawns-big-backups

That is a horrible article for ENR and really lowers my esteem for them. There are no technical details as to how any possible measures could alleviate congestion, and that's basically the entire article right there. Am I missing something?

"the state is working with contractor Wagman Heavy Civil to explore the use of alternate milling methods and overlay materials, establishing multiple work zones and other measures to accelerate the project."

IOW, having more than one work area section operating at a time, and considering different methods and (possibly) high early strength concrete, to speed up the project.

ENR is mainly targeted at the construction industry, so I keep that in mind when they don't post all the details I would like to see, such as more in depth analysis of how to improve traffic conditions on this project.

[Alps]

Chesapeake Bay Bridge Rehab Spawns Big Backups
October 23, 2019
https://www.enr.com/articles/48000-chesapeake-bay-bridge-rehab-spawns-big-backups

That is a horrible article for ENR and really lowers my esteem for them. There are no technical details as to how any possible measures could alleviate congestion, and that's basically the entire article right there. Am I missing something?

"the state is working with contractor Wagman Heavy Civil to explore the use of alternate milling methods and overlay materials, establishing multiple work zones and other measures to accelerate the project."

IOW, having more than one work area section operating at a time, and considering different methods and (possibly) high early strength concrete, to speed up the project.

ENR is mainly targeted at the construction industry, so I keep that in mind when they don't post all the details I would like to see, such as more in depth analysis of how to improve traffic conditions on this project.

Yup, that's what I was missing. The fact that they're going to send more crews to get done faster. It doesn't decrease congestion, but it decreases duration. So the article is, in fact, technically inaccurate by using the word 'congestion'.

[Beltway]

ENR is mainly targeted at the construction industry, so I keep that in mind when they don't post all the details I would like to see, such as more in depth analysis of how to improve traffic conditions on this project.

Yup, that's what I was missing. The fact that they're going to send more crews to get done faster. It doesn't decrease congestion, but it decreases duration. So the article is, in fact, technically inaccurate by using the word 'congestion'.

ENR is a decent publication for what they do, but they are not a traffic engineering magazine, so they probably need to be cautious about any analysis of such.

"Engineering News-Record provides the engineering and construction news, analysis, commentary and data that construction industry professionals need to do their jobs more effectively. "

[hbelkins]

Chesapeake Bay Bridge Rehab Spawns Big Backups
October 23, 2019
https://www.enr.com/articles/48000-chesapeake-bay-bridge-rehab-spawns-big-backups

That is a horrible article for ENR and really lowers my esteem for them. There are no technical details as to how any possible measures could alleviate congestion, and that's basically the entire article right there. Am I missing something?

"the state is working with contractor Wagman Heavy Civil to explore the use of alternate milling methods and overlay materials, establishing multiple work zones and other measures to accelerate the project."

IOW, having more than one work area section operating at a time, and considering different methods and (possibly) high early strength concrete, to speed up the project.

ENR is mainly targeted at the construction industry, so I keep that in mind when they don't post all the details I would like to see, such as more in depth analysis of how to improve traffic conditions on this project.

Yup, that's what I was missing. The fact that they're going to send more crews to get done faster. It doesn't decrease congestion, but it decreases duration. So the article is, in fact, technically inaccurate by using the word 'congestion'.

"Reduce the length and duration of congestion periods." "Cut the amount of time the work will increase congestion." Maybe a few qualifiers would have made it a tad more accurate.

[cpzilliacus]

That is a horrible article for ENR and really lowers my esteem for them. There are no technical details as to how any possible measures could alleviate congestion, and that's basically the entire article right there. Am I missing something?

I agree.

And it bothers me that there may be changes to the engineering specifications in order to get the job done quicker.  That, IMO, is a bad idea- and your thoughts on that are appreciated.

The only measures that the state can take have to do with management of the crossing, and maybe with getting some people to alter the times that they use it. 

My suggestions (personal opinions only):

0. Do not delay this work for any reason.

1. Convert to cashless two-way tolling (when this project is complete, MDTA can look at a return to one-way toll collection).

2. Charge higher tolls during hours when congestion is especially severe.  Not to minimize traffic, not to maximize revenue, but to maximize vehicular throughput.

3. Add more freeway service patrols along both approaches to point at least ten miles distant from the bridge.

4. Deploy State Police and MDTA Police to deal rapidly with incidents that may happen.

4.  Solicit bids from private bus operators to initiate free express bus service running from places like Wye Oak, Queenstown, Kent Narrows and Stevensville on the Eastern Shore to: downtown Annapolis and along the MD-450 (West Street) corridor, downtown Baltimore City, Glen Burnie, downtown Washington, D.C. and New Carrollton.  Make the existing bus service to Kent Island free for the duration of the project.  Allow buses to approach the bridge by using the shoulders (with appropriate signs).

[sprjus4]

1. Convert to cashless two-way tolling (when this project is complete, MDTA can look at a return to one-way toll collection).

2. Charge higher tolls during hours when congestion is especially severe.  Not to minimize traffic, not to maximize revenue, but to maximize vehicular throughput.

I fail to see how this would fix anything. It's the only crossing. If they raise the tolls or go to two-way, it's strictly to maximize revenue. It's not going to "maximize vehicular throughput".