I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange

[Zeffy]

If US 1 northbound is intended to be the primary exit for Princeton off I-295 Northbound; then why aren't there any signs (most likely supplemental BGS') stating such?  The first exit for Princeton one actually sees is beyond the US 1 interchange at the CR 583 interchange.

Hmm, good point. I guess they figure people trying to get to Princeton will just take US 206 down to Nassau Street / NJ 27.

[jeffandnicole]

It's been 32 years since NJ decided to kill the Somerset Freeway.  I think it's time to stop holding grudges and get over the whole "It's New Jersey's fault make them deal with it".  It's hardly the only case where a highway wasn't completed, causing issues in other states (we can start with the lack of 95 going thru DC, forcing issues forever on the Capital Beltway).

While future 295 in PA is definitely more N/S, it will hardly be the first time a highway's routing doesn't totally agree with the cardinal direction.  In fact, 295 in Delaware is clearly more East-West, and looking at a map doesn't appear to ever run in the proper direction (295 North is mostly going ESE until after you cross the bridge into NJ).  Even current 295 in NJ is mainly running mostly East-West, and in several cases Northbound 295 is actually going slightly south, and vice versa.

So, there needs to be a decision whether to allow 295's cardinal directions to go North then West then South (and North then East the South) in about a 8 mile distance, or just simply go East then South (and North then West). 

If US 1 northbound is intended to be the primary exit for Princeton off I-295 Northbound; then why aren't there any signs (most likely supplemental BGS') stating such?  The first exit for Princeton one actually sees is beyond the US 1 interchange at the CR 583 interchange.

This falls under the switcheroo control cities that I hate seeing.  At 295 North, Exit 60, the Control City is Princeton.  At Exit 65, it's simply 295 North.  At Exit 67, the Control City is Philadelphia.  One never made it to Princeton yet.

[roadman65]

Come down to Florida we have many areas where a change in control points takes place before reaching the actual city.

I-10 is "Lake City" from Tallahassee eastward, but switches to "Jacksonville" long before Lake City.

I-95 is "Miami" for ramps leading to it south of Jacksonville.  Even the post exit mileage sign for it reads "Miami" as main control city.  Yet after Melbourne (actually Malabar) still 180 miles out from Miami, the ramp and mileage signs change to "West Palm Beach."  Miami does not reappear until after you reach West Palm.

Also I-95 N Bound uses "Daytona Beach" from West Palm Beach northward, but Daytona Beach vanishes once after your hit Sebastian where "Jacksonville" takes over.  Sebastian FYI is 105 miles south of Daytona Beach.

Then in Kansas where "Kansas City" is control city from Wichita northward on I-35, but once at Olathe, the furthest out suburb of Kansas City along I-35, Des Moines takes over already.

These are just some examples of how signs direct you to a city, but then before you reach it no more signs control you.  In New Jersey's case at least it stops almost before Princeton, and BTW "Princeton" is signed at US 206!  Not that far off the beaten path and US 206 goes directly into Princeton where US 1 skirts the city or borough.

[jeffandnicole]

These are just some examples of how signs direct you to a city, but then before you reach it no more signs control you.  In New Jersey's case at least it stops almost before Princeton, and BTW "Princeton" is signed at US 206!  Not that far off the beaten path and US 206 goes directly into Princeton where US 1 skirts the city or borough.

Actually, Exit 60 is the one and only sign with Princeton as the control city, so it doesn't really start being a control city either. 

While US 1 doesn't directly go into Princeton, there are numerous roads that lead you into Princeton just off of US 1, most with few if any homes directly on those roads.  And US 1 is home to many of the larger restaurants, businesses and hotels that serve Princeton.  US 206, while sounding important, has the look and feel of a suburban county road.  Is US 206 the most direct route to downtown Princeton?  Probably.  Is it the best option?  Not so much.

[roadman65]

No I did not say its the best option either.  I said the direct part which as substandard US 206 is compared to US 1 is still that.  Yes, I agree that US 1 is the best option for that and one I would use for sure.  And with the Downtown areas dead in modern US culture, US 1 ended up being the new commercial area like US 31 did when they bypassed Kokomo, IN.

[PHLBOS]

It's been 32 years since NJ decided to kill the Somerset Freeway.  I think it's time to stop holding grudges and get over the whole "It's New Jersey's fault make them deal with it".  It's hardly the only case where a highway wasn't completed, causing issues in other states (we can start with the lack of 95 going thru DC, forcing issues forever on the Capital Beltway).

Nobody here is arguing over the alternate routings of I-95 due to cancelled projects; what's being discussed here is the renumbering of the old I-95 segments the aren't or no longer will be part of such.

In the DC case, the inner-segment of I-95 (Henry Shirley Highway) in VA & DC was simply redesignated as I-395 and that was that.

In the Boston area, the Northeast Expressway was redesignated as US 1 and the Central Artery/South Station Tunnel/Pulaski Skyway was redesignated as an extension of I-93.

In those 2 cases, there were no real known debates regarding the newly assigned numbers for the former I-95 sections.

And yes, I do hold NJ more responsible than PA for not building the Somerset Freeway (and hence, triggering the renumbering, whatever it turns out to be); However, I do hold PTC & PennDOT equally if not more responsible for literally dragging their feet on building the PA Turnpike/Delaware Expressway interchange.  This thing should've been built (in its current design configuration) at least 20 years ago.  Heck, it was only 14-15 years from the time the proposed I-95 segment in MA from Peabody to Revere was killed off to when the interchange with MA 128 in Peabody was completed and open to traffic.  Using that timetable, the PA Turnpike interchange should've been completed circa 1996-97.

While future 295 in PA is definitely more N/S, it will hardly be the first time a highway's routing doesn't totally agree with the cardinal direction.  In fact, 295 in Delaware is clearly more East-West, and looking at a map doesn't appear to ever run in the proper direction (295 North is mostly going ESE until after you cross the bridge into NJ).  Even current 295 in NJ is mainly running mostly East-West, and in several cases Northbound 295 is actually going slightly south, and vice versa.

I do agree that the I-295 segment in DE running E/W but signed N/S can appear somewhat odd; but at least, in that case, the overall heading (to the Trenton, NJ area) was still N/S.  The same can't be said for the I-95 segment from the PA Turnpike to the Scudder Falls Bridge.

So, there needs to be a decision whether to allow 295's cardinal directions to go North then West then South (and North then East the South) in about a 8 mile distance, or just simply go East then South (and North then West).

Agreed, which is the premise for this whole discussion.   

[mrsman]

I know I've stated this somewhere upthread that my preferred solution is to have the section of I-95 between US 1 and the Turnpike be designated as I-695.  In that way, it is similar to what you have in the SF Bay Area:  I-280 and I-680 are two N-S freeways heading from San Jose to San Francisco or Walnut Creek that happen to be the same roadway in San Jose, where they meet at US 101.

But since the authorities have decided to designate this part of I-95 as I-295, it will certainly lead to confusion.  I think, as others mentioned, the best way to minimize (but not eliminate) the confusion would be to designate the section from the river to US 1 in NJ as being E/W.  Another idea, might be naming the different sections of the road different names, to help with the traffic reports.  So the section in PA should be known as the Delaware Expressway and the section in NJ north of I-195 should be known as the Trenton Beltway and the section in NJ south of I-195 should be known as the Eastbank Expressway.

[dgolub]

I know I've stated this somewhere upthread that my preferred solution is to have the section of I-95 between US 1 and the Turnpike be designated as I-695.  In that way, it is similar to what you have in the SF Bay Area:  I-280 and I-680 are two N-S freeways heading from San Jose to San Francisco or Walnut Creek that happen to be the same roadway in San Jose, where they meet at US 101.

But since the authorities have decided to designate this part of I-95 as I-295, it will certainly lead to confusion.  I think, as others mentioned, the best way to minimize (but not eliminate) the confusion would be to designate the section from the river to US 1 in NJ as being E/W.  Another idea, might be naming the different sections of the road different names, to help with the traffic reports.  So the section in PA should be known as the Delaware Expressway and the section in NJ north of I-195 should be known as the Trenton Beltway and the section in NJ south of I-195 should be known as the Eastbank Expressway.

I-295 in New Jersey already has a name.  It's called the Camden Freeway, but, like most highways in New Jersey, it gets called by its number and most people have no clue what the name is.

[jeffandnicole]

How could: "In New Jersey, 295 is slow from 73 to 42" be more confusing than "In New Jersey, the Eastbank Expressway is slow from 73 to 42"?  An unsigned nickname to a highway can be confusing to locals that use the highway everyday.  Those not from the area will have absolutely no clue what route the report is referring to.

A few longstanding ones - the Schuylkill Expressway and the Blue Route - are routinely heard, but outside of that most highway nicknames are rarely mentioned.  You can probably include Route 42 as the nickname for I-76 in NJ as well.  But that's the exception rather than the rule.  In fact, I know on these forums it has been mentioned some people get upset when they are visiting a city and they hear the route nickname rather than the route number.  And these are people that know the roads better than others!

I don't think there's going to be all that much confusion...much less than what people are making it out to be.  The most important thing is that 295 will be split up between the states, and the traffic reports always make mention to the state they're referring to.  Even if you miss that, the report would say something like "In Oxford Valley, 295 North is jammed", or "We have a new problem on 295 South in Bordentown".  The worst would be if there's a problem involving 295 at a route that crosses the highway at least twice; they would need to be communicated to know which interchange they're truly talking about.  US 1 is easy: PA or NJ. Route 29 is a little tougher, although exit numbers would help, or saying "at the 29/195 interchange" would clearly note the location. 

Throughout the country, there are beltways that are completed 1/2 to 3/4 around a city.  And full beltways can even be more confusing in my opinion.  Almost always, there's going to be at least another route that crosses the beltway twice.

Would I have preferred another number between the PA Turnpike and US 1 in NJ?  Yeah.  But is stating it as 295 going to cause people to become totally clueless as to how to refer to the highway?  Nah.

[dgolub]

How could: "In New Jersey, 295 is slow from 73 to 42" be more confusing than "In New Jersey, the Eastbank Expressway is slow from 73 to 42"?  An unsigned nickname to a highway can be confusing to locals that use the highway everyday.  Those not from the area will have absolutely no clue what route the report is referring to.

A few longstanding ones - the Schuylkill Expressway and the Blue Route - are routinely heard, but outside of that most highway nicknames are rarely mentioned.  You can probably include Route 42 as the nickname for I-76 in NJ as well.  But that's the exception rather than the rule.  In fact, I know on these forums it has been mentioned some people get upset when they are visiting a city and they hear the route nickname rather than the route number.  And these are people that know the roads better than others!

There's a simple way to deal with this: Put the name on the signs under or next to the numbers.  NYC does this everywhere.  You'll see plenty of signs for "Henry Hudson Parkway," "Brooklyn-Queens Expressway," "Bruckner Expressway," "Cross Bronx Expressway," "Long Island Expressway," "Van Wyck Expressway," etc. etc.  It works great, and if someone tells you to get on the Van Wyck, you don't have to know that it's the same thing as I-678.

[jeffandnicole]

How could: "In New Jersey, 295 is slow from 73 to 42" be more confusing than "In New Jersey, the Eastbank Expressway is slow from 73 to 42"?  An unsigned nickname to a highway can be confusing to locals that use the highway everyday.  Those not from the area will have absolutely no clue what route the report is referring to.

A few longstanding ones - the Schuylkill Expressway and the Blue Route - are routinely heard, but outside of that most highway nicknames are rarely mentioned.  You can probably include Route 42 as the nickname for I-76 in NJ as well.  But that's the exception rather than the rule.  In fact, I know on these forums it has been mentioned some people get upset when they are visiting a city and they hear the route nickname rather than the route number.  And these are people that know the roads better than others!

There's a simple way to deal with this: Put the name on the signs under or next to the numbers.  NYC does this everywhere.  You'll see plenty of signs for "Henry Hudson Parkway," "Brooklyn-Queens Expressway," "Bruckner Expressway," "Cross Bronx Expressway," "Long Island Expressway," "Van Wyck Expressway," etc. etc.  It works great, and if someone tells you to get on the Van Wyck, you don't have to know that it's the same thing as I-678.

There's a simpler way: Call it 295.

[ekt8750]

Throughout the country, there are beltways that are completed 1/2 to 3/4 around a city.  And full beltways can even be more confusing in my opinion.  Almost always, there's going to be at least another route that crosses the beltway twice.

I would think beltways are pretty easy to discern if you just use the "inner loop/outer loop" designations that Baltimore and Washington use.

[storm2k]

How could: "In New Jersey, 295 is slow from 73 to 42" be more confusing than "In New Jersey, the Eastbank Expressway is slow from 73 to 42"?  An unsigned nickname to a highway can be confusing to locals that use the highway everyday.  Those not from the area will have absolutely no clue what route the report is referring to.

A few longstanding ones - the Schuylkill Expressway and the Blue Route - are routinely heard, but outside of that most highway nicknames are rarely mentioned.  You can probably include Route 42 as the nickname for I-76 in NJ as well.  But that's the exception rather than the rule.  In fact, I know on these forums it has been mentioned some people get upset when they are visiting a city and they hear the route nickname rather than the route number.  And these are people that know the roads better than others!

There's a simple way to deal with this: Put the name on the signs under or next to the numbers.  NYC does this everywhere.  You'll see plenty of signs for "Henry Hudson Parkway," "Brooklyn-Queens Expressway," "Bruckner Expressway," "Cross Bronx Expressway," "Long Island Expressway," "Van Wyck Expressway," etc. etc.  It works great, and if someone tells you to get on the Van Wyck, you don't have to know that it's the same thing as I-678.

Except it's been known for 50-someodd years as 295. All the signs call it 295. The maps show it as 295. Locals know it as 295. Giving it a name for the sake of a name would be pointless and stupid and just add to confusion rather than remove it. Put signs up naming it and everyone is still going to say "Get on 295 to exit blah blah". Why ruin what works?

[PHLBOS]

I know I've stated this somewhere upthread that my preferred solution is to have the section of I-95 between US 1 and the Turnpike be designated as I-695.

My original thought was to have the entire I-95/295 stretch from the PA Turnpike to I-195/NJ 29 be designated as I-695; the PA section would be N/S and the NJ section would be E/W.  However, having the 695/295 handoff at US 1 can work as well and would involve no mile marker/exit number changes on the Jersey side.

Another idea, might be naming the different sections of the road different names, to help with the traffic reports.

Since we're dealing with existing roadways here; such renaming would not work unless such was well established when the roads were first built.  While I-95 through PA is also known as the Delaware Expressway (and some early-generation signage had such listed along with the I-95 shields); the I-95 moniker, in that case, reasonated better with local motorists and traffic reporters. 

OTOH, the Schuylkill (I-76) and the Blue Route (I-476) were cases where names (the former was renumbered at least once and the latter being more of a nickname) just clicked with the motorists and reporters.  Such were also initially planned, and in the case of the Schuylkill, designed and built prior to the Interstate Highway System being fully established.

There's a simple way to deal with this: Put the name on the signs under or next to the numbers.  NYC does this everywhere.  You'll see plenty of signs for "Henry Hudson Parkway," "Brooklyn-Queens Expressway," "Bruckner Expressway," "Cross Bronx Expressway," "Long Island Expressway," "Van Wyck Expressway," etc. etc.  It works great, and if someone tells you to get on the Van Wyck, you don't have to know that it's the same thing as I-678.

IIRC, such an approach no longer flies with the FHWA and I believe (I could be mistaken) that newer signage in the NYC area has since phased out the placing of road names on the main signs.

As I mentioned above, the planning of those highways in metro-NYC and the fore-mentioned I-76 & 476 in Greater-Philly pre-dated the Interstate Highway Act of 1956; such might explain why the road names/nicknames took a greater hold for the above but not for I-95 & 295.

You can probably include Route 42 as the nickname for I-76 in NJ as well.

Personally, once the I-95/295 switch takes place; how much do you want to bet that newscasters & traffic reporters will still refer to the I-95 stretch north of the Turnpike and in NJ as I-95? 

It's a reasonably safe bet that they're not going to refer to the PA Turnpike east of the new interchange nor the PA Connector of the NJ Turnpike as I-95.  So an incident along the new northbound I-95 lanes will still be referred to as the eastbound Turnpike lanes.

[jeffandnicole]

You can probably include Route 42 as the nickname for I-76 in NJ as well.

Personally, once the I-95/295 switch takes place; how much do you want to bet that newscasters & traffic reporters will still refer to the I-95 stretch north of the Turnpike and in NJ as I-95? 

It's a reasonably safe bet that they're not going to refer to the PA Turnpike east of the new interchange nor the PA Connector of the NJ Turnpike as I-95.  So an incident along the new northbound I-95 lanes will still be referred to as the eastbound Turnpike lanes.

Interestingly, the portion of 95 between the PA Turnpike and NJ's US 1 isn't mentioned a whole lot on traffic reports. Daily congestion occurs near the Scudder Falls Bridge.  When that does make a report, the area is usually referred to by the bridge's name on traffic reports, so that probably won't change.

And I seriously doubt they'll say 95 when an incident is on the Turnpike.  As it is, they never say "On I-76...", "On I-276...", or "On I-476..."; it's always "On the (PA) Turnpike..."

[cpzilliacus]

And I seriously doubt they'll say 95 when an incident is on the Turnpike.  As it is, they never say "On I-76...", "On I-276...", or "On I-476..."; it's always "On the (PA) Turnpike..."

I hope they make it clear when they are talking about  the Northeast Extension as opposed to the East-West Mainline.

[PHLBOS]

Interestingly, the portion of 95 between the PA Turnpike and NJ's US 1 isn't mentioned a whole lot on traffic reports. Daily congestion occurs near the Scudder Falls Bridge.  When that does make a report, the area is usually referred to by the bridge's name on traffic reports, so that probably won't change.

While true, I have indeed heard traffic reporters on KYW 1060 AM, NJ 101.5 FM and Sirrius/XM 132 use I-95 references with regards to the Scudder Falls Bridge; example: "I-95 traffic from the Scudder Falls Bridge to...".

And I seriously doubt they'll say 95 when an incident is on the Turnpike.  As it is, they never say "On I-76...", "On I-276...", or "On I-476..."; it's always "On the (PA) Turnpike..."

I don't think I've ever heard the PA Turnpike referred to by route number(s) in traffic reports.

I hope they make it clear when they are talking about the Northeast Extension as opposed to the East-West Mainline.

When there's traffic or an incident along the NE Extension; they do indeed refer to it as "the Northeast Extension".  When they say just "Pennsylvania Turnpike"; they're referring to the E/W Mainline Turnpike.

[bzakharin]

Interestingly, the portion of 95 between the PA Turnpike and NJ's US 1 isn't mentioned a whole lot on traffic reports. Daily congestion occurs near the Scudder Falls Bridge.  When that does make a report, the area is usually referred to by the bridge's name on traffic reports, so that probably won't change.

While true, I have indeed heard traffic reporters on KYW 1060 AM, NJ 101.5 FM and Sirrius/XM 132 use I-95 references with regards to the Scudder Falls Bridge; example: "I-95 traffic from the Scudder Falls Bridge to...".

I think the point is that they mention the bridge by name and most people recognize it regardless of what route number is attached to it. Of course that doesn't help the non-locals if they keep referring to it as I-95. The bridge is not signed after all.

And I seriously doubt they'll say 95 when an incident is on the Turnpike.  As it is, they never say "On I-76...", "On I-276...", or "On I-476..."; it's always "On the (PA) Turnpike..."

I don't think I've ever heard the PA Turnpike referred to by route number(s) in traffic reports.

Actually, 476 is mentioned sometimes when both the Blue Route and the NE Extension have problems. "Further north on 476, the Northeast Extension..."

It is curious that Philadelphia reports say "The Turnpike" so much without specifying which when in NJ, which is a huge chunk of the listening are "The Turnpike" means something else (though of course the NJ Turnpike doesn't go East-West).

[PHLBOS]

Interestingly, the portion of 95 between the PA Turnpike and NJ's US 1 isn't mentioned a whole lot on traffic reports. Daily congestion occurs near the Scudder Falls Bridge.  When that does make a report, the area is usually referred to by the bridge's name on traffic reports, so that probably won't change.

While true, I have indeed heard traffic reporters on KYW 1060 AM, NJ 101.5 FM and Sirrius/XM 132 use I-95 references with regards to the Scudder Falls Bridge; example: "I-95 traffic from the Scudder Falls Bridge to...".

I think the point is that they mention the bridge by name and most people recognize it regardless of what route number is attached to it. Of course that doesn't help the non-locals if they keep referring to it as I-95. The bridge is not signed after all.

Just where in this thread did I, or anybody else for that matter, insinuate that the Scudder Falls Bridge was being referred to (or will be referred to) as just the route number?  I believe we're all in agreement that the bridge is (and will still be) referred to by name due to it being either a landmark or location along I-95 (Future I-295).

BTW, here's what one encounters while heading into NJ via the Scudder Falls Bridge. 

It is curious that Philadelphia reports say "The Turnpike" so much without specifying which when in NJ, which is a huge chunk of the listening are "The Turnpike" means something else (though of course the NJ Turnpike doesn't go East-West).

In all fairness, Jeffandnicole did have (PA) listed in parenthesis in the post you quoted.  Traffic reporters in the Delaware Valley do indeed refer to the PA & NJ Turnpikes by their respective state names.

Side bar: while the mainline NJ Turnpike doesn't run E/W; its branches/spurs (I-78 near Bayonne and the PA Turnpike Connector) do.

[bzakharin]

I live in the area and they most certainly do just say "The Turnpike" for the PA Turnpike about 70% of the time. As for the various extensions on either turnpike, they are a non-issue because they all have unique names (as in there is no Northeast Extension on the NJ Turnpike, etc) and these names are always used, sometimes by themselves as in "delays on the Northeast Extension".

[J N Winkler]

Looks like it's going to be I-295 - not 195 or 395.

This change was not well timed for PennDOT ECMS 95444, one of the I-95/Turnpike interchange contracts, which has 151 sheets dedicated to the I-95 redesignation.  The plans originally called for I-95 to become I-395 north of the Turnpike, and the decision to make it I-295 instead necessitated the issuance of 88 replacement sheets as part of the third addendum.

[noelbotevera]

Looks like it's going to be I-295 - not 195 or 395.

This change was not well timed for PennDOT ECMS 95444, one of the I-95/Turnpike interchange contracts, which has 151 sheets dedicated to the I-95 redesignation.  The plans originally called for I-95 to become I-395 north of the Turnpike, and the decision to make it I-295 instead necessitated the issuance of 88 replacement sheets as part of the third addendum.

Not everything is set in stone yet - that PDF is a month dated, and between then and now, the route designations are planning to switch. I-195 used to be the one who was gonna be extended into PA, but then the FHWA changed their minds to I-295. Unless there is a more recent PDF noting this, I think this is the best we can work with.

[dgolub]

There's a simple way to deal with this: Put the name on the signs under or next to the numbers.  NYC does this everywhere.  You'll see plenty of signs for "Henry Hudson Parkway," "Brooklyn-Queens Expressway," "Bruckner Expressway," "Cross Bronx Expressway," "Long Island Expressway," "Van Wyck Expressway," etc. etc.  It works great, and if someone tells you to get on the Van Wyck, you don't have to know that it's the same thing as I-678.

IIRC, such an approach no longer flies with the FHWA and I believe (I could be mistaken) that newer signage in the NYC area has since phased out the placing of road names on the main signs.

As I mentioned above, the planning of those highways in metro-NYC and the fore-mentioned I-76 & 476 in Greater-Philly pre-dated the Interstate Highway Act of 1956; such might explain why the road names/nicknames took a greater hold for the above but not for I-95 & 295.

Yeah, I've heard that it's not strictly MUTCD-compliant, but it's much more user-friendly for an area like NYC or certain parts of Long Island where no one knows what the numbers are anyway.

[SignBridge]

As far as I know all signing in the five boroughs of NYC shows both the highway's name and number, in a long standing deal with NYS DOT that began in about 1970. That deal came about from public pressure and the efforts of then legendary NYC traffic commissioner Henry Barnes. I haven't seen any new signs that don't show the road name. This practice is only in New York City, not in any other surrounding areas.

It's worth noting that some of those NYC signs are too large and too wordy in conflict with the recommendations of the FHWA.

[NJRoadfan]

Part of the problem with highway names in NYC is that they tend to have multiple route numbers associated with them. For example, the Cross Bronx is I-95 and I-295, while the Bruckner is I-278 and I-95.