I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange

[jeffandnicole]

Based on a small sample size of 1, there may be upwards of a full sign replacement program going on around Exit 60. 

On 295 this morning, this sign: https://goo.gl/maps/rLKeCrzRQg22 now has 4 shields on it, and reads something like:

NORTH   EAST        TO
    29       195     95  NJTPK

Was the entire sign replaced or did NJDOT just replace the three larger shields with four smaller ones?

I believe it was the entire sign.  It took me by surprise so I only had a last-second look at it. Now that I'm aware of it I'll try to grab a pic next time.

Per the design plans, the whole sign (each one in the sequence) is to be replaced.

Sweet!  I knew there was someone that knew the answer...I just couldn't recall who it was!

[ekt8750]

Very recently, PennDOT changed one or two I-95 North ramp signage south of the PA Turnpike crossing that originally listed Trenton to New York.  One of those changes occurred on a recent installation along Princeton Ave. in Northeast Philadelphia as part of the PA 73/Cottman Ave. interchange signage.

BGS circa Aug. 2017

A photo showing the very recent update was posted in a Facebook forum (not sure if the poster is a member of this forum) and shows the New York text in Highway Gothic.  This is probably the only BGS among the newer installments wide enough to support the longer text (due to the spacing between two words).

That said, why is PennDOT even bothering with replacing Trenton legends with New York legends at all south of the PA Turnpike crossing/interchange?  Regardless of what route numbers the Delaware Expressway carries, it's still the fastest and most logical route to Trenton... at least up to the US 1 Morrisville/Langhorne interchange (current Exits 46A-B/Future Exits 5A-B).

I would use Trenton and New York to cover both routes south of the interchange. Mainline I-95 goes to New York and the Delaware Expressway continues on to get you to Trenton. There's other examples of this, closest being right across the river with the North-South Freeway. I-76 and NJ 42 are both signed with Atlantic City as a secondary control although neither route ends anywhere near it.

[PHLBOS]

I would use Trenton and New York to cover both routes south of the interchange. Mainline I-95 goes to New York and the Delaware Expressway continues on to get you to Trenton.

I would too & back when FHWA/MUTCD didn't go into a hissy fit over the use of two control cities for ramp and pull-through signs for the same direction; such would be the solution.

But here's the thing... is the lack of a New York listing really a problem for this particular stretch of I-95 (between I-676 and PA 132)?  Even had the originally-planned I-95 via the Somerset Freeway been built, the route still bypassed Trenton's city limits and PennDOT would've still used Trenton for its I-95 signage at least up to the US 1 Morrisville/Langhorne interchange (Exit 46A-B/Future Exit 5A-B).

IMHO, PennDOT's either overcompensating or providing a solution that's in search for a problem.

[roadman65]

To answer the question of why Trenton.

Why does PennDOT use Carlisle from Chambersburg north on I-81?  It should be Harrisburg from the state line to PA 581.

Oh, PA 581, Wertzville Road, and US 11/15 all get Harrisburg as well!  Those are in the city's vicinity best served from local roads especially from US 11 & 15 NB.  Who heading north on the two us routes from Wormleysburg will need to take I-81 to go to Harrisburg?

PennDOT uses small cities over large ones, even Hazleton over Wilkes-Barre from Front Street northward on I-81.  Even Chester over Wilmington on I-95 the other way, or even Plymouth Meeting over Allentown on the Blue Route considering the Extension has the same route number now.

[AMLNet49]

Soon these overlays will come down then this picture will be a part of history.

And yet that horrible, wrinkled, off-color patch for the arrow will remain. Was that really necessary, do we need that exact arrow over a very similar looking arrow?

When you're driving under it, the patch color looks the same as the green sign behind it. Cameras seem to capture something that makes it look much darker!

And the arrow behind it was ugly, so yes it was needed!!

Could it have been that bad? Worse than this patch that looks like it was pulled out of the garbage?

Seriously though what’s up with that arrow? The rest of that greenout looks fine, most greenout looks fine, not good, but at least fine. They aren’t a bubbled, wrinkled mess like this. Can we get a new patch when they open this so the photos aren’t marred by that monstrosity?

Ive seen it in person it’s just as glaringly separate from the rest of the sign as it appears here. Although the color is closer to the main sign in person as the previous poster said, it still appears to be almost a separate sign that should like have a white border around it with another shield in there or something, as if it’s a gore point sign embedded in a BGS. And it has a very weird 3D effect, it’s not even close to flush.

[bzakharin]

I am surprised that wasn't done with a cover-up in the first place. Those two signs were put up at the same time by the same contractor after all. Will the pull-thrus north of here (that say "Thru Traffic") be replaced entirely?

While the contractor could've placed I-95 shields for the northbound ramp & pull-through signs at this location; they decided not to due to the absence of the direct-connection with the PA Turnpike at the time (such would've been an issue for I-95 southbounders). 

The two signs are next to each other on the gantry and went up at the same time. Why did they put I-95 South with green-out on one sign, but not I-95 North on the other?

The THRU TRAFFIC pull-throughs north of this location were erected prior to NJTA adopting more MUTCD-style signage.  My guess is that those signs will remain but will have I-95 shields placed on them in the foreseeable future; these sign layouts were planned with the supplemental I-95 shields in mind.

I'm talking about the signs at exits 7, 7A, and 8, which were put up at about the same time as the ones at exits 6 and 8A, when the truck lanes were being built. I'm still not sure why the former got "Thru Traffic", while the latter got "New York" (and why at Exit 5 north it's "Thru Traffic" while south it was "Wilmington" which was later taped over with "Camden")

[vdeane]

I would use Trenton and New York to cover both routes south of the interchange. Mainline I-95 goes to New York and the Delaware Expressway continues on to get you to Trenton.

I would too & back when FHWA/MUTCD didn't go into a hissy fit over the use of two control cities for ramp and pull-through signs for the same direction; such would be the solution.

But here's the thing... is the lack of a New York listing really a problem for this particular stretch of I-95 (between I-676 and PA 132)?  Even had the originally-planned I-95 via the Somerset Freeway been built, the route still bypassed Trenton's city limits and PennDOT would've still used Trenton for its I-95 signage at least up to the US 1 Morrisville/Langhorne interchange (Exit 46A-B/Future Exit 5A-B).

IMHO, PennDOT's either overcompensating or providing a solution that's in search for a problem.

I-95 did go by the Trenton metro area, so it would have been the route to Trenton.  However, with I-95 being rerouted, it won't go anywhere near Trenton, thus New York is appropriate.

[Beltway]

Why does PennDOT use Carlisle from Chambersburg north on I-81?  It should be Harrisburg from the state line to PA 581.

Major decision point / junction point with the Turnpike?

[jp the roadgeek]

I would use Trenton and New York to cover both routes south of the interchange. Mainline I-95 goes to New York and the Delaware Expressway continues on to get you to Trenton.

I would too & back when FHWA/MUTCD didn't go into a hissy fit over the use of two control cities for ramp and pull-through signs for the same direction; such would be the solution.

But here's the thing... is the lack of a New York listing really a problem for this particular stretch of I-95 (between I-676 and PA 132)?  Even had the originally-planned I-95 via the Somerset Freeway been built, the route still bypassed Trenton's city limits and PennDOT would've still used Trenton for its I-95 signage at least up to the US 1 Morrisville/Langhorne interchange (Exit 46A-B/Future Exit 5A-B).

IMHO, PennDOT's either overcompensating or providing a solution that's in search for a problem.

I-95 did go by the Trenton metro area, so it would have been the route to Trenton.  However, with I-95 being rerouted, it won't go anywhere near Trenton, thus New York is appropriate.

I would use New York as a control city on I-95 North from Center City up to Woodhaven Rd, then from Woodhaven Rd to the interchange I would use "95 North TO 295 New York/Trenton" . I would specifically not put a direction on any reference to 295 until the interchange itself,  so not to confuse the long distance driver when 295 "reverses direction"  at the state line.

[bzakharin]

I-95 did go by the Trenton metro area, so it would have been the route to Trenton.  However, with I-95 being rerouted, it won't go anywhere near Trenton, thus New York is appropriate.

But I-95 was never the best way to get to Trenton past US 1, so it was always an indirect route.

I would use New York as a control city on I-95 North from Center City up to Woodhaven Rd, then from Woodhaven Rd to the interchange I would use “95 North TO 295 New York/Trenton”. I would specifically not put a direction on any reference to 295 until the interchange itself,  so not to confuse the long distance driver when 295 “reverses direction” at the state line.

I'd think that the further south you are the more likely it is that you are taking I-95 to some relatively local destination, such as Trenton (actually even more likely somewhere in PA if not just within Philly) as opposed to New York, so I'm not sure why you'd only sign Trenton north of Woodhaven Road, unless you sign something more local (Northeast Philadelphia?) south of there.

[Alps]

I'm talking about the signs at exits 7, 7A, and 8, which were put up at about the same time as the ones at exits 6 and 8A, when the truck lanes were being built. I'm still not sure why the former got "Thru Traffic", while the latter got "New York" (and why at Exit 5 north it's "Thru Traffic" while south it was "Wilmington" which was later taped over with "Camden")

There were several different contracts for the widening. While they all were overseen together, it's possible that the middle ones had signs manufactured before the policy changeover to use destinations, while the end interchanges got their signs more recently.

[PHLBOS]

I would use Trenton and New York to cover both routes south of the interchange. Mainline I-95 goes to New York and the Delaware Expressway continues on to get you to Trenton.

I would too & back when FHWA/MUTCD didn't go into a hissy fit over the use of two control cities for ramp and pull-through signs for the same direction; such would be the solution.

But here's the thing... is the lack of a New York listing really a problem for this particular stretch of I-95 (between I-676 and PA 132)?  Even had the originally-planned I-95 via the Somerset Freeway been built, the route still bypassed Trenton's city limits and PennDOT would've still used Trenton for its I-95 signage at least up to the US 1 Morrisville/Langhorne interchange (Exit 46A-B/Future Exit 5A-B).

IMHO, PennDOT's either overcompensating or providing a solution that's in search for a problem.

I-95 did go by the Trenton metro area, so it would have been the route to Trenton.  However, with I-95 being rerouted, it won't go anywhere near Trenton, thus New York is appropriate.

While I-95 is indeed being rerouted further away from Trenton, the Delaware Expressway itself (originally intended to be one route) still heads towards Mercer County, New Jersey.  Additionally, Trenton is a capital city.  Having a primary route signed for such from the next nearest city (Philadelphia in this case) is logical & makes sense regardless of how many times a highway changes route numbers.

That said & as previously stated, I can see reason for adding New York to some of the existing I-95 northbound signs in Philadelphia and Lower Bucks County (for the PA 63, 132 & 413 interchanges) but not replacing Trenton for such.

[vdeane]

But I-95 was never the best way to get to Trenton past US 1, so it was always an indirect route.

I'd say the metro area is more important than whether I-95 physically enters the city.  They have to use something.  Should I-90 not use Buffalo, since it doesn't enter the city?

[jeffandnicole]

Drove thru the 95/PA Tpk interchange under construction this morning, and as a passenger I could get a better look around.  While the overpasses have their concrete set, there is an amazing amount of work left to do on the non-elevated portions of the ramps, along with present day I-95 itself. At the speed PA works at, 4 months appears to be a very optimistic estimate to have these ramps open. 

On the ramps themselves, there's areas where the dirt still hasn't been fully graded yet.  On 95 proper, they are still at the base dirt level, still needing to prepare for the concrete pour.

Can all of this be done within 4 month's time?  Of course.  But I was quite shocked at the amount of work needed to be done still along here.

The concrete roadway south of this area is in atrocious condition as well.  If this was a business, people would pay to continue taking the NJ Turnpike rather than follow 95 in PA!



This sign now says 95, New York / Central Phila.  It no longer uses Trenton.  Appears to be a completely new sign.  https://goo.gl/maps/UU2CUdkGcsM2

[PHLBOS]

One has to wonder whether PennDOT or DRPA depending on location will alter their I-95 northbound signage for the three DRPA bridges coming from NJ?

Granted, it's initially a bit odd seeing Trenton on signage just after leaving the Garden State (previous DRPA signage for I-95 north from the Betsy Ross Bridge included Bristol along with Trenton in its legend); how much more awkward or weirder would it be to see New York on signs while Philly-bound leaving South Jersey?

Changing the I-95 northbound ramp signs for the other roads in Philly & Lower Bucks County is one thing but those particular signs for traffic leaving NJ shouldn't change at all IMHO.

[theroadwayone]

Drove thru the 95/PA Tpk interchange under construction this morning, and as a passenger I could get a better look around.  While the overpasses have their concrete set, there is an amazing amount of work left to do on the non-elevated portions of the ramps, along with present day I-95 itself. At the speed PA works at, 4 months appears to be a very optimistic estimate to have these ramps open. 

On the ramps themselves, there's areas where the dirt still hasn't been fully graded yet.  On 95 proper, they are still at the base dirt level, still needing to prepare for the concrete pour.

Can all of this be done within 4 month's time?  Of course.  But I was quite shocked at the amount of work needed to be done still along here.

The concrete roadway south of this area is in atrocious condition as well.  If this was a business, people would pay to continue taking the NJ Turnpike rather than follow 95 in PA!



This sign now says 95, New York / Central Phila.  It no longer uses Trenton.  Appears to be a completely new sign.  https://goo.gl/maps/UU2CUdkGcsM2

My grandparents could get that done in less time, and they're dead.

[roadman65]

But I-95 was never the best way to get to Trenton past US 1, so it was always an indirect route.

I'd say the metro area is more important than whether I-95 physically enters the city.  They have to use something.  Should I-90 not use Buffalo, since it doesn't enter the city?

I-95 North for Trenton used to use Yardley and the old US 1 (now US 1 Business) was signed for Trenton.  All the control signs leaving Philly would direct you north on I-95 to the former US 1 exit and US 1 into Trenton.

Even on US 1 which goes right to Trenton, has the control city for I-95 north as Trenton.  I-95 goes way north of the Downtown of the city and you have to zig back to Trenton on NJ 29 if you let the signs for Trenton now control you. 

I mentioned the same thing in Enola on US 11 & 15 as the ramp for I-81 Northbound uses Harrisburg when Harrisburg is located east of US 11 & 15 several miles to the south.  PennDOT is using both Front and Cameron Streets as the two I-81 exits signed for PA's capital, so US 11 & 15 are south of those two exits so following Protocol would have Harrisburg on I-81 really north of Enola despite its awkward location.

However, some states remedy it by taking into consideration what locals experience hence KDOT along I-35 in Kansas.  As soon as one enters Olathe, all signs for I-35 N Bound begin to use Des Moines instead of Kansas City despite you are still no where near Kansas City and not even close to its first exit.  They figure locals know where their principal city of their own metro are is and how to get to it. Though the MUTCD says its to be signed up until one reaches that point.  Even FDOT jumps the gun on I-275 north of Tampa  by signing St. Pete instead of Tampa as the Center of Tampa is just south of I-4's exchange, but that one could be considered iffy as the Tampa City Limits cover I-275 up until after Livingston Avenue crosses the freeway and one could argue I-275's first southbound exit at Bearss Avenue is at Tampa cause its in the city limits at that point.

[storm2k]

But I-95 was never the best way to get to Trenton past US 1, so it was always an indirect route.

I'd say the metro area is more important than whether I-95 physically enters the city.  They have to use something.  Should I-90 not use Buffalo, since it doesn't enter the city?

I-95 North for Trenton used to use Yardley and the old US 1 (now US 1 Business) was signed for Trenton.  All the control signs leaving Philly would direct you north on I-95 to the former US 1 exit and US 1 into Trenton.

Even on US 1 which goes right to Trenton, has the control city for I-95 north as Trenton.  I-95 goes way north of the Downtown of the city and you have to zig back to Trenton on NJ 29 if you let the signs for Trenton now control you. 

I mentioned the same thing in Enola on US 11 & 15 as the ramp for I-81 Northbound uses Harrisburg when Harrisburg is located east of US 11 & 15 several miles to the south.  PennDOT is using both Front and Cameron Streets as the two I-81 exits signed for PA's capital, so US 11 & 15 are south of those two exits so following Protocol would have Harrisburg on I-81 really north of Enola despite its awkward location.

However, some states remedy it by taking into consideration what locals experience hence KDOT along I-35 in Kansas.  As soon as one enters Olathe, all signs for I-35 N Bound begin to use Des Moines instead of Kansas City despite you are still no where near Kansas City and not even close to its first exit.  They figure locals know where their principal city of their own metro are is and how to get to it. Though the MUTCD says its to be signed up until one reaches that point.  Even FDOT jumps the gun on I-275 north of Tampa  by signing St. Pete instead of Tampa as the Center of Tampa is just south of I-4's exchange, but that one could be considered iffy as the Tampa City Limits cover I-275 up until after Livingston Avenue crosses the freeway and one could argue I-275's first southbound exit at Bearss Avenue is at Tampa cause its in the city limits at that point.

I think it will remain Trenton. 95 may veer off the roadway at the new interchange, but the original roadway itself will still head towards Trenton. North of the Route 1 exit, I would be just fine with them using Princeton as the next control city since 95/295 passes through there on its way around the Trenton suburbs (even though NJDOT used Lawrence as a control city at old Exit 2 in Ewing, which does not compute to me).

[PHLBOS]

Even on US 1 which goes right to Trenton, has the control city for I-95 north as Trenton.  I-95 goes way north of the Downtown of the city and you have to zig back to Trenton on NJ 29 if you let the signs for Trenton now control you.

Several years ago, some of the I-95 northbound Trenton ramp signs north of the PA Turnpike crossing were replaced with ones using Princeton; including this one at US 1 Morrisville/Langhorne interchange (although the one along US 1 northbound, based on GSV was not replaced).

The likely reasoning for having Trenton signed along I-95 northbound all the way up to the Scudder Fall Bridge may have been based on an old (now long-dead) proposal that would've had NJ 29 being a full-blown expressway at I-95.

I think it will remain Trenton. 95 may veer off the roadway at the new interchange, but the original roadway itself will still head towards Trenton. North of the Route 1 exit, I would be just fine with them using Princeton as the next control city since 95/295 passes through there on its way around the Trenton suburbs (even though NJDOT used Lawrence as a control city at old Exit 2 in Ewing, which does not compute to me).

You might want to look back at the previous posts.  This sub-topic started as a result of sightings of I-95 northbound ramp signage well south of the PA Turnpike crossing now having New York on the signs instead of Trenton; the existing BGS' were modified not replaced. 

As far as using Lawrence for the now I-295 signage.  Given that the new designation is signed for the opposite direction that I-95 was; seeing a sign that reads 295 SOUTH Lawrence is less awkward than 295 SOUTH Princeton.  One could argue that the use of Princeton, at least for the I-295 northbound signage south of US 1 (Exit 67A-B) theoretically dates back to when the I-95/Somerset Freeway proposal was still alive.

[bzakharin]

North of the Route 1 exit, I would be just fine with them using Princeton as the next control city since 95/295 passes through there on its way around the Trenton suburbs (even though NJDOT used Lawrence as a control city at old Exit 2 in Ewing, which does not compute to me).

295 (old 95) does not enter Princeton. Lawrence was probably signed because that is where I-95 (used to) become I-295 at the US 1 interchange. That said, Princeton is a more meaningful control city there, and it is used Northbound north of Trenton.

[akotchi]

Lawrence, in my opinion, was just a one-off . . . what was at (old) Exit 2 before the structure was replaced was a small I-95 north to NJTP pull through without a control city.

There are only two I-295 south pull-throughs proposed along the former I-95 segment:  one entering New Jersey (similar to pictured above) and at Scotch Road (old Exit 3).  The former is the only one showing Princeton.  Overhead signs on the interchange crossroads, such as at Route 31, are the only other ones showing the I-295 South/Princeton combination.  I think there was a sniff of the awkward nature of this message during the design.

As to the rest of the control city debate . . . I would just like to see some consistency in the finished product, i.e.
Trenton/New York from NE Philly -- I have to believe that using only one city is because of the structural consequences of a bigger sign -- New York was probably chosen as the longer distance city.
Trenton/Princeton on I-295 to U.S. 1 -- New York on new I-95.
Princeton north of U.S. 1 -- Morrisville/Trenton on U.S. 1 north
Camden beginning at Exit 67.

[jeffandnicole]

Of I-295's control cities, Camden, Princeton and Trenton are never entered as well

295 is a loop, bypass or beltway; however you want to term an even 3 digit interstate route.  And it does what it's supposed to do.  Most people just think of Philly as the city bypassed, however, 295 bypasses Wilmington, Camden, Trenton and Princeton.  In reality, it's about as perfect as an even 3 di as you can get in terms of definition.  (In terms of congestion, UGH!!)

The only control cities that 295 enters aren't proper control cities: Delaware Memorial Bridge and Delaware.

[bzakharin]

I think of a perfect 3di as one that allows traffic between two big cities to bypass one or more big cities in between (or if the parent interstate bypasses a city, allow access into it). In this sense, 295 is only doing its job between I-95 in Delaware and the NJ Turnpike, which is doing most of the bypassing. The rest of 295 is a local commuter route.

[Beltway]

I think of a perfect 3di as one that allows traffic between two big cities to bypass one or more big cities in between (or if the parent interstate bypasses a city, allow access into it). In this sense, 295 is only doing its job between I-95 in Delaware and the NJ Turnpike, which is doing most of the bypassing. The rest of 295 is a local commuter route.

The NJ Turnpike is a bypass, and I-295 adds capacity to the corridor and provides frequent local access points.  I-295 has both local access and bypass functions.

[Alps]

I think of a perfect 3di as one that allows traffic between two big cities to bypass one or more big cities in between (or if the parent interstate bypasses a city, allow access into it). In this sense, 295 is only doing its job between I-95 in Delaware and the NJ Turnpike, which is doing most of the bypassing. The rest of 295 is a local commuter route.

So in New Jersey, only I-280 is a "perfect 3di" in your sense.