I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange

[famartin]

Trenton and Baltimore would be the most proper control cities to be used at the GSP interchange.  Trenton is the state capital and the next large city heading southwards.  Baltimore would be eventually accessed whether one chooses to take the Turnpike or I-95 so it is appropriate to both roads.

Philadelphia needs only to be listed, as it is, at Exit 6.  I-95 is the route to follow there.

Wilmington should only be listed at Exit 2.  The Turnpike does not go to Wilmington and most intercity travelers are heading to Baltimore and further south and not to Wilmington.  Wilmington should not be used as a control city on the Turnpike.

Most traffic on the middle Turnpike is heading from one metro (NYC) to the other (Philly) or vice versa. Only the fairly small amount of traffic below exit 3 is actually bypassing Philly, and undoubtedly some traffic NB isn't going to NYC, but you get the point. The turnpike does not actually reach any of its control cities except for the GWB approach. Yet, NYC is the sole NB control city (GWB is not a city), while Newark, Trenton, Camden and Wilmington are all used SB. Philly is snubbed, but of course it is... the NJTA is in NYC's back yard and they don't care about Philly any more than any other North Jerseyan does.

[roadman65]

Allentown is also not mentioned going WB on I-78 from Newark as well.  Clinton is used at some places cause that was an original US 22 control city as it was along that route (and still is) Somerville, Clinton, Phillipsburg, and Easton.  Somerville is bypassed by I-78 and that is why the next town of Clinton is used, then Phillipsburg and Easton are used alternatively from I-287 westward.

Allentown and Harrisburg should only be used from Newark westward.  Allentown is PA's 3rd largest city and much bigger than Easton and out of all three Lehigh Valley cities it is the largest and should be included and Easton omitted as US 22 places really are not that prominent anymore for the freeway travelers.    Plus I-78 only has one exit for the city as well.  However, copying over is what takes place even in Arizona where Los Angeles is control city on I-40 though the road ends in Barstow and two other interstates are needed to get there from the end all because US 66 (the road it replaced in AZ) went there.  Ditto in Vegas as I-15 is signed for LA too instead of San Diego, cause of US 91, the road it replaced went there. 

[NJRoadfan]

The signs at Exit 129 on the GSP use Trenton in the northbound direction and Camden in the southbound direction. Changing Camden to Philadelphia would make more sense there as I-287 and the GSP are commonly used as a route for New England traffic heading south vs. taking I-287 the whole way.

[famartin]

Trenton and Baltimore would be the most proper control cities to be used at the GSP interchange.  Trenton is the state capital and the next large city heading southwards.  Baltimore would be eventually accessed whether one chooses to take the Turnpike or I-95 so it is appropriate to both roads.

Philadelphia needs only to be listed, as it is, at Exit 6.  I-95 is the route to follow there.

Wilmington should only be listed at Exit 2.  The Turnpike does not go to Wilmington and most intercity travelers are heading to Baltimore and further south and not to Wilmington.  Wilmington should not be used as a control city on the Turnpike.

Most traffic on the middle Turnpike is heading from one metro (NYC) to the other (Philly) or vice versa. Only the fairly small amount of traffic below exit 3 is actually bypassing Philly, and undoubtedly some traffic NB isn't going to NYC, but you get the point. The turnpike does not actually reach any of its control cities except for the GWB approach. Yet, NYC is the sole NB control city (GWB is not a city), while Newark, Trenton, Camden and Wilmington are all used SB. Philly is snubbed, but of course it is... the NJTA is in NYC's back yard and they don't care about Philly any more than any other North Jerseyan does.

Just realized this statement is false, as the turnpike does go to Newark. Woops. So, by the definition of cities the turnpike actually reaches, Newark is the only valid control city currently used, aside from GWB.

[famartin]

One other comment regarding the control cities... out of all the ones currently used, Trenton actually makes least sense since the Turnpike bypasses it the MOST of any control city currently used.

NB -
NYC (NJTA roadway gets to about a mile from the city line)
GWB (reaches the approach)

SB -
Newark (passes right through)
Trenton (closest pass is about 4.7 miles from the city line)
Camden (closest pass is about 2 miles from the city line)
Wilmington (closest pass is about 1 mile from the city line)

And Philly, the ignored destination? The Philly city limits reach to about 3 miles from the turnpike at closest. Almost 2 miles closer than Trenton.

[jeffandnicole]

Philly not being used as a control city in the past was the *correct* decision to make. I frequently encountered confused southbound motorists at Interchange 1 thinking they were still on I-95, and expected to go thru Philly. Adding Philly as a control city would have compounded that confusion.

[Beltway]

Philly not being used as a control city in the past was the *correct* decision to make. I frequently encountered confused southbound motorists at Interchange 1 thinking they were still on I-95, and expected to go thru Philly. Adding Philly as a control city would have compounded that confusion.

The original mainline of I-95 was not competed thru Pennsylvania until 1985, so using Philadelphia as a control city would have been problematic before then.

Then the connection to the Turnpike was only completed in 2018, so with the cancellation of the Somerset Freeway, a completed I-95 thru Philadelphia did not exist until then.

[PHLBOS]

Trenton and Baltimore would be the most proper control cities to be used at the GSP interchange.  Trenton is the state capital and the next large city heading southwards.  Baltimore would be eventually accessed whether one chooses to take the Turnpike or I-95 so it is appropriate to both roads.

Agree with using Trenton.  Disagree with using Baltimore.  OTOH, a mileage sign listing Baltimore (w/Philadelphia and Wilmington) along the southbound mainline I-95/Turnpike just south of the GSP might be useful.

Philadelphia needs only to be listed, as it is, at Exit 6.  I-95 is the route to follow there.

Agree to a point.  As previously mentioned, occasional mileage signs listing Philadelphia along the southbound mainline would be helpful.

Wilmington should only be listed at Exit 2.

Since both Exits 4 and 3 list Camden on their signs; the use of Wilmington at those two interchanges are both justified.  It's worth noting, and probably mentioned several pages back, that the southbound pull-through sign at Exit 5 was changed from Wilmington to Camden shortly after those new signs were erected.  The two-line Camden/Wilmington pull-through at Exit 6 is fine.

The Turnpike does not go to Wilmington and most intercity travelers are heading to Baltimore and further south and not to Wilmington.  Wilmington should not be used as a control city on the Turnpike.

The same exact argument can be made regarding NYC; the Turnpike itself does not enter it and I-95 only skims across the upper-end of Manhattan and the Bronx.  I'm sure a sizeable portion of northbound I-95 traffic is going beyond NYC; note that the northern portion of the GSP has a truck prohibition so such can't be used as a bypass for them.

The bottom line here is that (& like it or not) Wilmington, while smaller than Baltimore, is Delaware's largest city and the road beyond the NJ Turnpike indeed enters the southern end of that region.  Using it for southbound NJ Turnpike signage south of Exit 5 is justified.  Personally, I would've been fine with using the old-school Delaware Memorial Bridge listings for those signs but, for some reason, the NJTA decided not to deviate from MUTCD policy of listing only actual cities for control legends despite such being done at the northern end for the GWB listings.  Talk about inconsistency.

I remember having this discussion before.  The only thing that drives me crazy is using Philadelphia as a control city northbound at Exit 6.  You're already past the city at that point, and would have taken Exit 2 for the airport/southern suburbs, Exit 3 for Center City, or Exit 4 for Northeast Philly. SB Exit 6 should read: I-95 SOUTH TO I-276 WEST [PATP Logo] Philadelphia/Harrisburg, while NB controls should be Bristol or Valley Forge, and Harrisburg.  Listing Philly NB is almost as ridiculous as MassDOT using NYC as a control at Exit 9 Eastbound on the Mass Pike.

I hear you on that MassDOT sign.  That one should've been prevented; either the prior Sturbridge/Hartford, CT legend or just a Hartford, CT legend would've sufficed.  However, in the case of Exit 6; Philadelphia is used for the northbound signs because such is the next immediate destination along I-95 southbound.  The only time I saw Bristol (PA) used as an I-95 control city was on older ramp signage for I-95 northbound coming from the Betsy Ross Bridge.  Like the listing of Hartford on that eastbound I-90 Exit 9 signage in MA (most coming from western MA would use I-91 south to get to Hartford); the use of Philadelphia for the northbound Exit 6 signage is somewhat unavoidable.

The signs at Exit 129 on the GSP use Trenton in the northbound direction and Camden in the southbound direction. Changing Camden to Philadelphia would make more sense there as I-287 and the GSP are commonly used as a route for New England traffic heading south vs. taking I-287 the whole way.

IMHO, and I stated such several pages back, the only reason for the Camden listing on those southbound signs was because the prior exit for US 1 South (Exit 130B, originally Exit 130) already lists Trenton and has done so (along w/New Brunswick on older signs) well before the completion of NJ 29 and the western piece of I-195.  IMHO, Exit 130B should've been signed for New Brunswick and the southbound Exit 129 BGS' should listed Trenton instead of Camden.  Note: the southbound entrance ramp sign beyond the toll plaza only lists Trenton. 

The original mainline of I-95 was not competed thru Pennsylvania until 1985, so using Philadelphia as a control city would have been problematic before then.

Coming from the north, that missing piece of I-95 by the airport wouldn't have mattered since such is well south of Center City.

[jeffandnicole]

I tried diving a little deeper into the NJ Turnpike website regarding the new signing project, but it doesn't appear their search function is working.  I did locate though that some of the signage being added/replaced will be on NJDOT right of way, including but not limited to Routes 130, 206 and 32.  I also tried to figure out if Philadelphia would be a control city in the future, but no luck.

As for the past...remember: The NJ Turnpike is kinda in new territory here.  Formerly it was basically one highway (north to south): NYC to the Delaware Memorial Bridge.  It never entered Philly, and Philly was signed for both Interchanges 3 and 4.  What applied prior to 2018 really doesn't apply in full anymore, as we see with many of the changes that have already been undertaken. 

Now, it can be considered a path that goes two ways:  The NJ Turnpike, from NYC to the Delaware Memorial Bridge, and I-95, which goes from NYC to Exit 6.  Hopefully, this contract will address deficiencies in the signage, especially related to control cities, reflecting how motorists may be looking at and referring to the highway.

For a similar comparsion - look at I-70 thru PA, where it overlaps the PA Turnpike for a while (keep your personal opinions to yourself in regards to the interchange that shall not be named).

[Beltway]

The original mainline of I-95 was not competed thru Pennsylvania until 1985, so using Philadelphia as a control city would have been problematic before then.

Coming from the north, that missing piece of I-95 by the airport wouldn't have mattered since such is well south of Center City.

But the airport is still in Philadelphia.  Coming from the north, PA I-95 didn't have an inter-state linkup in any case.

[PHLBOS]

The original mainline of I-95 was not competed thru Pennsylvania until 1985, so using Philadelphia as a control city would have been problematic before then.

Coming from the north, that missing piece of I-95 by the airport wouldn't have mattered since such is well south of Center City.

But the airport is still in Philadelphia.  Coming from the north, PA I-95 didn't have an inter-state linkup in any case.

Actually, half of PHL is situated in the neighboring Tinicum Township, Delaware County.  While such may not matter to the lay person; it does matter where an improvement project takes place on airport/adjacent property (i.e. different cast of characters for the permit applications and submittals).

Prior to the completion of the 1985 leg at the airport interchange; one coming from the south was forced off onto PA 291 (at current Exit 10).  From there, one would follow PA 291 eastbound to Island Ave..  From there, one would turn right and follow Island Ave. southbound to Enterprise Ave.  From there, one would turn left (via a now-gone jughandle) onto Enterprise Ave. and follow it to I-95 northbound (current Exit 15) just prior to the double-decker Girard Point Bridge.  For one heading south from Center City, they would do the reverse.

That said, unless one's destination was PHL, Chester, a neighboring Delaware County suburb, or even northern Delaware (example: Claymont); the then-missing link at PHL was irrelevant for one coming from NYC or central NJ.

Prior to the linking of I-195 to the northern piece of I-295 in the very early 1990s; if one wanted to connect to the old I-95 in Mercer County NJ; the best way to do such would be to take Exit 8 off the NJ Turnpike and follow NJ 33 westbound (including the US 130 concurrency) to I-295 northbound and follow to the I-95 southbound at where the would-be Somerset Freeway (I-95) interchange was located (the 95/295 handoff location shifted east to the US 1 interchange circa 1994).  Another option would be to continue along NJ 33 to US 1 south and take that into PA and take US 13 south (Bristol Pike) and follow to PA 413 and pick up I-95 there (current Exit 39).

While the above routing wasn't the most convenient nor expedient; it did provide a way to link with I-95 in Mercer County & PA.

A more typical pre-interchange (& one I've used many times over the years) routing between I-95 in Bucks County, PA and the NJ Turnpike was, of course, using Exit 6 and crossing into PA and taking the very first exit (Delaware Valley, old Exit 29/358, current Exit 42) and follow US 13 south to PA 413 north to I-95.  As we all now know, the new interchange-connection eliminates using US 13/PA 413 anymore.

[jaip]

I am long time follower of AA roads. This is my first post! Here is the reply I got from MdTA several months back regarding I-95 N signs. I guess they will not change signs despite completion of interchange.

We appreciate your interest in our facilities. Guide sign destinations are an important part of our freeway navigational system, which provides unfamiliar motorists with destinations and landmarks as directional guidance.  As a result, guide sign destinations are used at numerous locations along an Interstate Highway, including along approach roadways and at key decision points along the length of the roadway.

Within Maryland, I-95 northbound is signed using the destination "NEW YORK" for guide signs along the I-95 Mainline and approach roadways between Caton Avenue (Exit 50) and the Delaware State Line.  This provides a clear and consistent message for all motorists regarding the northbound route destination.  When northbound motorists reach Delaware they are provided with guidance to take I-95 North to reach "PHILADELPHIA" and I-295/The NJ Turnpike to reach "NY-NJ".

Using "NEW YORK" as the guide sign destination clearly captures all north bound motorists regardless of their ultimate destination without presenting information which could confuse motorists destined for an interim destination.  It also maintains consistency with signing along all approach roadways and in adjacent jurisdictions.

Federal regulations limit the number of destinations which can be shown on guide signs to two per sign, which allows the display of one destination in each direction (i.e. New York and Washington, DC).  Adding additional destinations causes confusion for motorists at a time when they are processing significant amounts of information as part of the driving task.

We appreciate your concern of the signing message; however, we are unable to accommodate your request at this time. 

[Beltway]

MdTA:
Using "NEW YORK" as the guide sign destination clearly captures all north bound motorists regardless of their ultimate destination without presenting information which could confuse motorists destined for an interim destination.  It also maintains consistency with signing along all approach roadways and in adjacent jurisdictions.

So it is not a conspiracy after all!  Seems pretty logical to me.

[jaip]

I wrote a follow up email requesting inclusion of Philadelphia on mileage signs. MdTA did not bother to reply. Now, that does raise suspicion of "conspiracy"  if any.

[sprjus4]

Federal regulations limit the number of destinations which can be shown on guide signs to two per sign, which allows the display of one destination in each direction (i.e. New York and Washington, DC).  Adding additional destinations causes confusion for motorists at a time when they are processing significant amounts of information as part of the driving task.

Well, clearly North Carolina doesn't follow this rule.

[Beltway]

I wrote a follow up email requesting inclusion of Philadelphia on mileage signs. MdTA did not bother to reply. Now, that does raise suspicion of "conspiracy"  if any.

Well, they don't include the other intervening major cities such as Wilmington, Camden, Trenton and Newark either.   

My only 'nit' would be the use of "New York" when "New York City" would be more specific as to what part of the state that they were referring to.

[famartin]

MdTA:
Using "NEW YORK" as the guide sign destination clearly captures all north bound motorists regardless of their ultimate destination without presenting information which could confuse motorists destined for an interim destination.  It also maintains consistency with signing along all approach roadways and in adjacent jurisdictions.

So it is not a conspiracy after all!  Seems pretty logical to me.

Actually sounds like bureaucratic BS to me... the list of control cities are selected by the states, but clearly Maryland has thumbed its nose at both Delaware and Pennsylvania in that regard, since they only sign "New York" when "Wilmington" is the next proper I-95 control city and "Philadelphia" the next major city.

[02 Park Ave]

Philadelphia is inconsequential and there is no reason for it to be listed.

[famartin]

Philadelphia is inconsequential and there is no reason for it to be listed.

[1995hoo]

....

We appreciate your concern of the signing message; however, we are unable to accommodate your request at this time" .

The highlighted word is clearly incorrect. They're perfectly "able" to change the signs to use some other city, they're simply unwilling to do so. (With that said, having "New York" on the signs has never bothered me, but that could easily be because I've seen it for essentially my whole life so I've never seen anything else used on that road.)

[jp the roadgeek]

My only 'nit' would be the use of "New York" when "New York City" would be more specific as to what part of the state that they were referring to.

THANK YOU!!  I totally agree with this whenever I see "New York" used as a control city.  There is one sign near the Hynes Convention Center that says "90 West/New York"  when in reality (and on every other control sign" it is "90 West/ Albany NY" (and I-90 doesn't even get within 140 miles of NYC),   At least at Exit 9 on the Pike MassDOT uses New York City.   CTDOT has a habit of using N.Y. City; however, the spelled out words can fit on a single line of a BGS (and I'm not sure if N.Y. City is MUTCD compliant). 

[jaip]

....

We appreciate your concern of the signing message; however, we are unable to accommodate your request at this time" .

The highlighted word is clearly incorrect. They're perfectly "able" to change the signs to use some other city, they're simply unwilling to do so. (With that said, having "New York" on the signs has never bothered me, but that could easily be because I've seen it for essentially my whole life so I've never seen anything else used on that road.)

Yep, typical bureaucratic response. MD seems to have some grudge against DE and PA.

[jaip]

 

Philadelphia is inconsequential and there is no reason for it to be listed.

as inconsequential as any other city in US outside of NYC, LA, and  Chicago.

[Alps]

Philadelphia is inconsequential and there is no reason for it to be listed.

as inconsequential as any other city in US outside of NYC, LA, and  Chicago.

Yeah, the next destination on i-95 NB should be Wilmington.

[Duke87]

My only 'nit' would be the use of "New York" when "New York City" would be more specific as to what part of the state that they were referring to.

Oh, but it's a city in a different state from where the sign is located. It should therefore be "New York NY".

*ducks*