Crimea

[US 41]

Is Crimea part of Russia or is it its own country that joined the Russian Federation, like for example Croatia joining the EU? Notice I'm not asking if its part of Ukraine, because Ukraine is pretty much done there. They also have their own issues. Also are there any plans to change the highway numbering system in Crimea so it doesn't match Ukraine's?

[Brandon]

I believe that Russia is annexing Crimea outright, just like Germany did with the Sudetenland in 1938.

[Thing 342]

I believe that Russia is annexing Crimea outright, just like Germany did with the Sudetenland in 1938.

No. Crimea voted to declare itself an independent republic from Ukraine, and then it agreed to become a constituent republic of the Russian Federation. (Similar to a US state)

[english si]

I believe that Russia is annexing Crimea outright, just like Germany did with the Sudetenland in 1938.

No. Crimea voted to declare itself an independent republic from Ukraine, and then it agreed to become a constituent republic of the Russian Federation. (Similar to a US state)

basically the same thing, but with a pretence of democracy. The referendum, where electoral fraud clearly took place is the fig leaf that Russia is using to create enough doubt to avoid massive censure.

Oh, and the independence was done without asking the public - just as the coup that took place in Kiev was undemocratic (and similar to the kind of mob action that gave Hitler the Sudenland), the Crimean Governmental response was just as much so.

[CNGL-Leudimin]

Crimea is Ukraine. Russia pretends to have annexed it. Done.

[ET21]

Ukraine: this generation's East-West Germany 

[corco]

Ukraine: this generation's East-West Germany 

This is not that at all, no matter how you perceive the politics. That was a war-torn country made up of one primary ethnic group occupied by two opposing outside factions. This is a territorial dispute over a piece of territory that has been part of both entities' boundaries at various points in history, and contains folks from both ethnic groups. If shit continues to go down in mainland Ukraine, that's a weird sort of buffer state dispute- it's almost more like the Poland or Finland or Baltic States of this generation.


To bring this back on topic sort of, Google pushed out updates. For most of the world, if you go to Google Maps, there's a dashed line indicating that it is part of Russia but a flexible border. Google Maps Ukraine shows no border, as the rest of the world did recently, and Google Maps Russia shows a solid line indicating Crimea as definitively being part of Russia.

[hotdogPi]

In Soviet Russia, Crimea annexes YOU!

[Duke87]

For most of the world, if you go to Google Maps, there's a dashed line indicating that it is part of Russia but a flexible border. Google Maps Ukraine shows no border, as the rest of the world did recently, and Google Maps Russia shows a solid line indicating Crimea as definitively being part of Russia.

Gotta love local pandering. Showing it as a disputed border is, of course, the most accurate way of doing it. But then, politics. Good business to try and piss off as few of your customers as you can.

This does bug me because I tend to have this old-fashioned idea that two people looking at the same map should see the same thing. But of course, Google is Google, and that went out the window with them years ago. Everything is personalized to the specific user.


The question is begged, though: if you go to Google maps (or any other Google site) from Crimea, which version does it direct you to?

[Alps]

For most of the world, if you go to Google Maps, there's a dashed line indicating that it is part of Russia but a flexible border. Google Maps Ukraine shows no border, as the rest of the world did recently, and Google Maps Russia shows a solid line indicating Crimea as definitively being part of Russia.

Gotta love local pandering. Showing it as a disputed border is, of course, the most accurate way of doing it. But then, politics. Good business to try and piss off as few of your customers as you can.

This does bug me because I tend to have this old-fashioned idea that two people looking at the same map should see the same thing. But of course, Google is Google, and that went out the window with them years ago. Everything is personalized to the specific user.


The question is begged, though: if you go to Google maps (or any other Google site) from Crimea, which version does it direct you to?

In Soviet Ukraine, border define you!

[vdeane]

As far as I'm concerned, the people of Crimea voted to join Russia, so they should be free to do so without interference.  At this point I can't find a non-biased source to confirm or deny allegations of vote fraud, but Crimea is mostly ethnic Russians who never asked to be part of Ukraine, so a very high percentage voting to join Russia is not inconceivable.

There is almost no neutral journalism on the subject either.  The American and European media is very anti-Russian, and the Russian media is so pro-Russia that it's comical.  This isn't a good guys vs. bad guys fight.  There are no good guys here.  It's worth noting that American/EU involvement in the former Soviet republics explicitly broke a promise the US made to Gorbachev during the fall of the USSR.  Also, Russia has a naval base to Crimea, which is Russia's only access to the Mediterranean.  Russia is well aware that international alignments can change quickly and that they need to be prepared for invasion even from countries that aren't a threat in the here and now.  Because the terrain is so flat, that means depth.  They don't have that right now thanks to the expansion of the EU and NATO.

They're really between a rock and a hard place.  The EU wants to impose austerity.  Russia wants Ukraine in its sphere of influence.  Ukraine can't go its own way due to debt.  There's really no good option here, and either way, things won't end well for the Ukrainian people.  The whole Crimea issue is essentially a pissing contest between the US and Russia.

To bring the issue closer to home so that people can get a less US-centric perspective: imagine if Cuba seized control of Guantanamo Bay and Russia or China sent troops to help them.

[Alps]

So if Florida voted to secede, we'd just let them? Bullshit.

[corco]

So if Florida voted to secede, we'd just let them? Bullshit.

We especially would if the Cubans filled the state with armed soldiers just prior to the referendum.

[Alps]

So if Florida voted to secede, we'd just let them? Bullshit.

We especially would if the Cubans filled the state with armed soldiers just prior to the referendum.

Or we'd declare war on Cuba. Not an option for Ukraine. Sovereign territory should never be violated from without. (Without once being the antonym of within)

[english si]

As far as I'm concerned, the people of Crimea voted to join Russia, so they should be free to do so without interference.

voter interference like the Russian army camping out there?

At this point I can't find a non-biased source to confirm or deny allegations of vote fraud

photos of pre-marked ballots? Even the people calling the coup in Kiev a horrible thing were posting/retweeting those pictures.

but Crimea is mostly ethnic Russians who never asked to be part of Ukraine, so a very high percentage voting to join Russia is not inconceivable.

Crimea is 57% ethnic Russian. Even if you account for the other 43% boycotting the poll, the very high percentage that was the result was a serious swing from the opinion poll done in January.

Sure, the Ukrainian government went from pro-Russia to anti-Russia (not really pro-EU) thanks to the coup. But Crimea was apparently independent (done by hastily-voted-on-by-regional-governments unilateral declaration that no one recognised*), so the Ukrainian government's stance on Russia didn't matter as the choice was independence or Russia.

*not Russia, not Transnistria, not South Ossetia, not Kosovo, no one. They talked about the Kosovo process, but Germany recognised it instantly, and much of Europe within an hour or two. That Russia didn't recognise Crimean sovereignty, nor any of the Russia-loving breakaway republics that support each other for statehood.

They're really between a rock and a hard place.  The EU wants to impose austerity.  Russia wants Ukraine in its sphere of influence.  Ukraine can't go its own way due to debt.  There's really no good option here, and either way, things won't end well for the Ukrainian people.

The EU doesn't want to impose austerity, at least as a primary aim. The EU's aim is the same as the Russians - have Ukraine in its sphere of influence. Oh, and out of Russia's!

The Russians, AFAICS, seem more open to Ukraine dealing with both them and the EU, ditto the pro-Russian Ukrainians. But that's the 'little European' mentality of many in the EU at play.

The whole Crimea issue is essentially a pissing contest between the US and Russia.

So the elections weren't free-and-fair, but Russia pushing the US to see how far the US would go? a big change in stance in this sentence from the others.

Oh, and where is the EU in that?

[corco]

The whole Crimea issue is essentially a pissing contest between the US and Russia.

So the elections weren't free-and-fair, but Russia pushing the US to see how far the US would go? a big change in stance in this sentence from the others.

Oh, and where is the EU in that?

I don't see this as really having anything to do with America. This has very, very little to do with the United States, and we've responded in kind. It's about Europe and Russia and the balance of power in that region. The US certainly has an interest in that, but it's not about us. The US, as often happens despite what we Americans like to believe, really isn't that important here.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Russia wants Crimea. Crimea wants Russia. Ukraine, the EU, and the US can complain and stomp their feet all they want but as far as I'm concerned they can go be part of Russia.

[vdeane]

Regardless of whether the US should be involved, the US government IS involving itself.  And it's been poking Russia ever since the Soviet Union fell.  And Russia owns the base where all the troops were stationed.

I have things to do, so I'm gonna primarily respond with news quotes.  Though AlterNet is more pro-Russia on its Ukraine coverage than I'd like (in particular, it tends to ignore that the Ukrainian president ruled like a ruthless dictator), it's the best I've found.  The only other source I can really recommend and am familiar with is Dan Carlin's Common Sense (episodes 270-272).

On the EU:

Not that they have much time for the EU, which has been pushing Ukraine to  sign an association agreement, offering loans for austerity, as part of a German-led drive to open up Ukraine for western companies. It was  Viktor Yanukovych's abandonment of the EU option — after which Putin offered a $15bn bailout — that triggered the protests.

http://www.alternet.org/world/fascists-oligarchs-and-western-expansion-explaining-ukraines-crisis

On the alleged election fraud:

Admittedly, the leaflets were designed to be nearly identical to the real ballots. There are two important differences, however. Unlike the official ballot announced earlier this week by Crimean election head Mikhail Malyshev, the leaflets were printed on white paper. (The actual ballots are being printed on yellow paper.) The paper size of the leaflets also seems to be larger than the dimensions that Malyshev advertised this Tuesday. Finally, of course, there is the booming red checkmark on the leaflets. If you look carefully at RBC's picture, you'll see that the box around the checkmark doesn't close completely. There is a small space left unfilled, making it impossible even to suggest that the vote was cast after the ballot was printed.

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/03/15/russias-crimea-ballot-fraud-that-wasnt/

So if Florida voted to secede, we'd just let them? Bullshit.

I personally would, though I realize most Americans wouldn't.  Though in my ideal world, all of humanity would be united in a democratic one-world government with no political/economic elite allowed.

No money either.  It completely contradicts human nature, but I'm not a fan of human nature anyways.

[US 41]

So the US should have just let the Confederacy go and slavery continue back in 1861?

[corco]

Regardless of whether the US should be involved, the US government IS involving itself.  And it's been poking Russia ever since the Soviet Union fell.  And Russia owns the base where all the troops were stationed.

The US is very minimally involved- we've imposed some token sanctions but we're mostly acting in support of the EU because our membership in the UN Security Council and in NATO requires us to. Russia isn't doing this because of the US, it's doing this because it's worried Ukraine will become too connected to the European Union.

[vdeane]

So the US should have just let the Confederacy go and slavery continue back in 1861?

Short version: I support the right of the people to decide whether or not to secede as long as nobody is harmed.
Addendum: I'm pretty sure that there was no popular vote on the issue; the legislatures decided it fully.

The US is very minimally involved- we've imposed some token sanctions but we're mostly acting in support of the EU because our membership in the UN Security Council and in NATO requires us to. Russia isn't doing this because of the US, it's doing this because it's worried Ukraine will become too connected to the European Union.

The government's rhetoric begs to differ.  Plus the US is involved in just about everything.

The Security Council is a whole nother issue... let's not get into that.  I could rant about it all day.

[Brandon]

So the US should have just let the Confederacy go and slavery continue back in 1861?

Short version: I support the right of the people to decide whether or not to secede as long as nobody is harmed.
Addendum: I'm pretty sure that there was no popular vote on the issue; the legislatures decided it fully.

And some parts of the southern states refused to go, while others had dual governments (Kentucky, Missouri).  Eastern Tennessee sent many troops to the Union while southern Illinois sent a fair number to the Confederacy.

Vastly different situation than having one country send in troops prior to an "election" and then conducting the "election".

One needs to bring up the history of these places (Crimea, Ukraine) before one can fully assess the situation.

Crimea was not originally Russian.  It has gone back end forth between empires for centuries.  It's been Byzantine and Ottoman, as well as its own Khanate.  Russia then annexed the peninsula in 1783 under Catherine the Great.  Most of the people there were Crimean Tartars during this time period.  A war was fought in the area to prevent further Russian expansion at the expense of the Ottoman Empire.

Later, under Stalin, the Tartars were deported to Siberia while Russians were brought in.  Stalin was rather famous for population transfers (OK, deporting people to Siberia and dropping them off there with no supplies - one reason I really hate the man - he did it to my relatives).  After Stalin, in 1954, Crimea was transferred to Ukraine.

Ukraine is a bit different story, one caught between east and west.  Ukraine really began as part of the Kievan Rus.  This is where most modern Russians believe that Ukraine really is a part of Russia - Ukrainians beg to differ.  Moscow grew in power after the Rus was overrun by the Mongols, and the area now known as Ukraine was separated from Moscow.  By the 16th Century, Ukraine was almost entirely a part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.  Yes, it was a part of historic Poland.

Ukraine was then subject to the Three Partitions of Poland in the late 18th Century.  Part was taken by Austria, part was taken by Russia.  The Russians then attempted to suppress the Ukrainian language in favor of Russification.  The Austrians just let things be.  Post-WWI, about one-half of Ukraine was in the Soviet Union, and one-half was in Poland.  The part in the Soviet Union was subject to the Holodomor in the 1930s (believed to be an ethnic cleansing event).  It was not until the Invasion of Poland by both the Nazis and the Soviets that Ukraine, as we know it today, was united again.  Because of this, western Ukraine has always looked west, and eastern Ukraine tends to look east (due to the effects of Russification).  It's also one reason why the Ukrainians are reluctant to have Russian as a recognized national language.  They tried for independence after WWI, some allied with the Germans in WWII (until the Nazis decided to kill off the Ukrainians), and finally obtained independence after the breakup of the Soviet Union (an event that has never sat well with Russians).

Some of Putin's language indicates that he wishes to restore the Russian Empire.  That means it's not just Georgia, it's not just Crimea, but also the possibility of Finland, the Baltic States, and Poland being on his target list as well.

[Scott5114]

I understand the last time Russia invaded Finland, it did not go so well for the Russians. Putin would have to be crazy to try again–invading Finland would certainly provoke a much stronger response from the EU, and the US would probably get involved as well.

[agentsteel53]

So if Florida voted to secede, we'd just let them? Bullshit.

I am okay with this.  where's the meme of Bugs Bunny sawing off the droopdong?

[sammi]

So if Florida voted to secede, we'd just let them? Bullshit.

I am okay with this.  where's the meme of Bugs Bunny sawing off the droopdong?