NY Thruway Exit 21A-B

[Ian]

Hey all!

I have been going on the New York Thruway (the I-87 portion) for as long as I can remember and I have noticed that going north, exit 21B comes before exit 21A. Why is this? Does it have something to do with in case of confusion of motorists by-passing Albany from I-90? What?

Also, why is there even an exit 21A-B off the Thruway. They are at least 10 miles in separation between the two and exit 21 is more than that to the south. Why not continue with the numbers from exit 21 (as in exit 21B be exit 22, exit 21A be exit 23 etc.)

Just my questions.
Ian

[akotchi]

I would imagine that Exits 21A and 21B were constructed after the exit sequence numbers were installed, and NYSTA did not want to renumber the exits.  Similar things happened on the NJ and PA Turnpikes (before the latter went to milepost based numbering).

I think it is also within the ticket system, so some confusion may have resulted from that change.

Milepost based exit numbers would be a better idea, but this toll road has its complications with that concept. . .

[Duke87]

^^^Yup, that's it.

After the Thruway opened, a new interchange was added between exits 21 and 22, and numbered 21A (normal practice with sequential numbering). Later still, another new interchange was added between 21 and 21A... so for lack of anything better, it was numbered 21B.
It's far from the only case of sloppy exit numbering in New York, but it's one of the more egregious.


As for using a distance based system, I see no practical reason why mileposts for I-87 and I-90 couldn't be used in lieu of mileposts for the thruway mainline. It's just that I can't see the Thruway Authority cooperating with such an idea.

[Alps]

You could definitely make it happen.  The key would be to have a barrier toll between Exit 24's ramps.  Turn in your ticket, pay, get a new ticket.  a) It would be an incentive to get E-ZPass (you would build express E-ZPass lanes into the plaza) and b) you could simply issue different tickets, each with the correct exit numbers.  All you would have to do is untoll B2 and B3, then make B1 into one last barrier toll for both the Extension and I-90.  Everyone has to pay (flat rate for I-90 traffic, Thruway Exit 22 rate from the Thruway).

[vdeane]

<snip>

[akotchi]

How would the current Exit 24 tolling work, then?  Separate plazas on the branches, or dedicated lanes like at 16E/18E in New Jersey?

Seems also like you would need separate lanes for the Extension plaza, because of the different toll collection methods for I-90 and Thruway traffic.

Seems like a lot of reorganization to change exit numbers from sequential to milepost, though . . . Might be easier to just add an E or W (for I-90 exits) or an N or S (for I-87 exits) to the ticket.

[Alps]

How would the current Exit 24 tolling work, then?  Separate plazas on the branches, or dedicated lanes like at 16E/18E in New Jersey?

Add a toll plaza west of B1 on the Berkshire Extension for the ticket-based.  Then keep the existing I-90 toll but charge $1 for it.  Have dedicated lanes there so that you don't get charged at both tolls.

Seems also like you would need separate lanes for the Extension plaza, because of the different toll collection methods for I-90 and Thruway traffic.

Seems like a lot of reorganization to change exit numbers from sequential to milepost, though . . . Might be easier to just add an E or W (for I-90 exits) or an N or S (for I-87 exits) to the ticket.

Well it's one way to go about it, is all.

[Duke87]

The whole 87/90 interchange needs to be redone anyway, milepost numbering or not. Havung to take two exit ramps to continue on 87 is just inexcusable.

The way to deal with it is simple:

- take the existing "dead end" of the Northway at US 20 and tie it directly into the Thruway with a Y split. Put a toll plaza just north of US 20. Traffic exiting for US 20 can use Crossgates Mall.
- remove the two ramps at the existing interchange that duplicate this movement.

Now, when you milepost the exits:

- use mileposts for 87 and 90 outright, in proper direction of index (this includes B1, B2, and B3 for 90).
- sign/number staying on the Thruway as the exit and continuing on 87 or 90 as the pullthrough both at 24 and B1.

A reconfiguring of interchange B1 to streamline through movements on I-90 wouldn't hurt, either.

[vdeane]

The Thruway does want to create more direct access for I-87, but as ez-pass-only lanes.  I doubt they would ever have separate numbering on I-90 and I-87, but this would be ideal.

[xcellntbuy]

A long, long time ago, Exit 21B was added to the Thruway and it was nothing less than classic rural NIMBY.  I believe it was in the late 1970s.

At the time Clarence D. "Larry" Lane (R) was the Assemblyman for the 102nd Assembly District and it was always rumored that he had a lot of political "pull" with the Thruway in his District which consisted of Columbia, Greene and southern Albany Counties.  Many of his constituents worked for the Thruway Authority.

Supposedly, Mr. Lane owned significant investment property in that part of Greene County and wanted "direct access."  Greene County, at the time, was also considered a Republican political "machine."  Mr. Lane retired from the Assembly and did not run for re-election in 1986.

If I remember correctly, there was also controversy over where to exactly build Exit 21B since it only accesses US 9W with a large trumpet interchange and not anywhere near the US 9W intersection with NY 81 and NY 385 in Coxsackie.

Viability of fuel businesses was a major issue with the building of Exit 21B as well, since the New Baltimore Service Area, accessible from both north- and southbound on the Thruway was nearby and so was the then-still-open Columbia and Rensselaer Service Areas just east of the Castleton Bridge on the Berkshire Spur.  Consequently, there has never been much business development at the Thruway entrance.  It has been many years since I have been in that area and usually only one truck-type business would be open at the Exit and many others shuttered.

Eventually the opening of the last two sections of Interstate 90 from Exits 10 (Miller Road), 11E-W (US 9 and 20) and 12 (US 9), around 1977, along with the completion of Exit 21B cut-off any major need for the Service Areas on the 8-mile section of the Berkshire Spur over the Castleton Bridge from Exits B-1 to Exit 21A and they were closed.  Business at those two Service Areas had dropped over 90%.  Eventually, the Service Areas were gated off and they became huge parking lots for new State Trooper cars and plows and maintenance equipment.

I would imagine the two buildings were torn down many years ago since the two Berkshire Spur Service Areas have been closed approximately 30 years now.

Correction courtesy of upstatenyroads.com:

Coxsackie Interchange 21B was opened at Milepost 124.5. The $2,400,000 interchange was financed with State funds.

Mark Alan

[agentsteel53]

Coxsackie.

Beavis and Butthead name towns?

[xcellntbuy]

Coxsackie is a Dutch-Algonquin word for the "hoot of the owl," according to wikipedia.  Lots of very old (17th century) Hudson Valley towns are still of Dutch-language origin reinterpreted from the Indian languages.  Many creeks are still called "kills," the Dutch word for same.

I always heard it pronounced a couple of different ways, cock-sack-ee like a "sack" of vegetables or cock-sock-ee, like the "socks" we wear.  Its a small village and has two huge prisons nearby.  The state prison was always referred to as "the work farm" when I growing up.  There was an enormous drive-in movie theatre on US 9W south of the village.  I believe it is still in operation.

Mark Alan

[02 Park Ave]

Did the Sleepy Hollow Lake PUD have anything to do with the opening of Exit 21B?

[vdeane]

Holy thread necro!

[Buffaboy]

Holy thread necro!

It appears as though when you posted here, you were around my age. Isn't it weird seeing something you wrote 7 years later?

[vdeane]

Yeah, this thread started way back when I was in high school*.  Definitely one of the earlier threads on the forum.

*Maybe.  Not sure the exact date I graduated, but it was around the time the OP was posed.

[SidS1045]

As for using a distance based system, I see no practical reason why mileposts for I-87 and I-90 couldn't be used in lieu of mileposts for the thruway mainline. It's just that I can't see the Thruway Authority cooperating with such an idea.

This idea may be as old as this posting, but...why not post both distances (per J.P. Wing's Upstate NY Roads site)?

[02 Park Ave]

For the I-87, how would the old Deagan and Northway mile numbers be stated?

[dgolub]

I would imagine that Exits 21A and 21B were constructed after the exit sequence numbers were installed, and NYSTA did not want to renumber the exits.  Similar things happened on the NJ and PA Turnpikes (before the latter went to milepost based numbering).

This is generally how sequentially numbered exits get letter suffixes.  Well, except when you have two exits for the same route in different directions and they number them a N-S, E-W, or A-B.

[vdeane]

For the I-87, how would the old Deagan and Northway mile numbers be stated?

One can safely ignore the Deegan for two reasons:
-If NYC uses mileposts at all, I don't think anyone pays attention to them
-they are the same

As for the Northway... maybe NOR?

[Duke87]

For the I-87, how would the old Deagan and Northway mile numbers be stated?

One can safely ignore the Deegan for two reasons:
-If NYC uses mileposts at all, I don't think anyone pays attention to them
-they are the same

As for the Northway... maybe NOR?

Ugh, no. Nonono. No more multiple sets of numbers. The point of whipping the Thruway into line is lost if the Northway and free 90 are not also renumbered to as they should be.

The proper way for this to work is:
- Major Deegan uses exits 1A for Brook Ave through 9A for McLean Ave
- Thruway starts with exit 9B for Hall Place
- Where 87 leaves the Thruway, staying on the Thruway is signed as exit 157A for I-90 west, and 87 north/90 east is signed as the through route
- The Northway/I-90 junction becomes exit 157B for the stub to US 20, no exit number is assigned to staying on 87 or 90 since that'd cause more confusion than it's worth
- Numbers then continue up to the US 9 exit just shy of the border being exit 332
- Ripley exit on the thruway becomes exit 1
- Where 90 leaves the Thruway, staying on the Thruway is signed as exit 348A for I-87 south, and 90 east/87 north is signed as the through route
- from 90 westbound, 87 north is exit 348C and the stub to US 20 is exit 348B. 87 south is in theory 348A but again, no need to sign the number.
- the last exit on free 90 is 368A
- Where 90 rejoins the Thruway, it is signed as the through route and the Berkshire Spur towards Castleton bridge is signed as ext 368B from both directions on 90. From Castleton Bridge, neither direction on 90 has a signed exit number but you can put 368B on toll tickets if you need something.
- The last exit before the MA line for NY 22 becomes exit 387, the highest in the state.

Mile markers along all routes are posted to match the mileage of the interstate. The Thruway can keep its shield and name on signs but no longer has its own mile markers independent of the routes on it.

[vdeane]

I was referring to the upstatenyroads mile marker proposal, not the exit numbers.

[SidS1045]

As for the Northway... maybe NOR?

Or, following the illustrated example of TWY for Thruway, NWY?

[02 Park Ave]

Getting back to my recent question:

Did the Sleepy Hollow Lake PUD have anything to do with the opening of Exit 21B?

I asked it because Sleepy Hollow Lake was recently featured on HGTV.  The population density is low along the Town of Athens portion which is readily accessible from Exit 21.  However, it is more densely populated along the Town of Coxsackie portion and I was wondering if that had anything to do with the addition of Exit 21B.  As this thread directly deals with that exit, I thought that it was the best place to ask my question.

[shadyjay]

How 'bout this idea:

Renumber I-87 and I-90 based on mileage from their southern/western terminus'.   To avoid confusion in the Thruway ticket system, construct two new toll barriers:  one at a point between present Exits 22 & 23 on the I-87 portion and one at some point in the Schenectady area on I-90.  That way, the confusion of exit numbers by mileage on the ticket system is eliminated, since cash customers heading NB/WB would cash in their ticket at the Albany plaza, then get a new ticket outside Schenectady.  Each toll plaza would be designed like the Exit "15" (Harriman) plaza, with two high-speed EZ-Pass lanes and side lanes for cash (ticket).  Albany/Schenectady area motorists would benefit by having their section toll-free.  Exit modifications could be done through this area, such as extending the "Northway" south of US 20 to meet the Thruway (as mentioned above) without having to worry about the toll plaza/EZ-Pass gantry.  The I-87 ticket section can be called the "Hudson Valley Section" and the I-90 ticket section can be called the "Mohawk Section".  The section west of Buffalo out to PA is already called the "Erie Section". 

In addition, have the Thruway take control of the Deegan from I-278 up to the city/county line.  This would make the Thruway and I-87 have the same mile/exit sequence from the Bronx, right up to Albany.  Maybe offset the cost of the extra Thruway mileage (and the loss of the Albany area toll revenue) by reinstating two-way tolls at the New Rochelle barrier on the New England section, designed with 2 lanes of high-speed EZ-Pass traffic and side barriers for cash customers. 

We've seen NY roads change hands back-and-forth between NYSDOT and Thruway control... just look at I-84.  Right now, the New England Thruway is the only road in New York City that is maintained by the Thruway.  I don't see a reason why that concept can't be extended to the Deegan.