AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel  (Read 104653 times)

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 9598
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 23
  • Location: Seattle and Tacoma, WA Vancouver, BC | Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: April 24, 2019, 08:21:38 PM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #650 on: February 11, 2019, 07:03:09 PM »

Looks like demolition will be delayed a bit. At least we can have our last, last, last goodbye.


I'm a little sad that people have been vandalizing the old signs.
Is there any talk of signs or other parts of the viaduct being placed in a museum?

The overhead signs had already been vandalized prior to the viaduct closing.

The space-age sign gantry will be preserved by MOHAI, but no word on the US-99 sign.
Logged
Avid user of bit.ly. I would never post malicious links, but if you'd like to verify my links for peace of mind, feel free to use either of these sites. Thanks!

https://wheregoes.com/
http://getlinkinfo.com/

Duke87

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5167
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Queens, NY
  • Last Login: Today at 12:49:56 AM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #651 on: February 11, 2019, 07:47:52 PM »

Traffic was extremely light for the conditions. People did as they were told and avoided driving...and it worked pretty great.

The Times reported on it: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/the-cars-just-disappeared-what-happened-to-the-90000-cars-a-day-the-viaduct-carried-before-it-closed/
They also knew it was temporary. That needs to be factored in as well.

Not sure how many people can reasonably adjust their schedule for three whole weeks. It was a temporary closure, but most people still had to get to work, go to school, etc. Transit and bikes seem to have picked up the slack, since the roads obviously didn't (the congestion wasn't much different than normal). It's not like the entirety of Hwy 99's users just up and left Seattle for three weeks.

The key question here is time. How long did it take the people using transit and bikes to get to work during the closure, and how long did it take when they drove?

If it normally takes me 30 minutes to commute by car, I might be willing to grin and bear a 60 minute commute via an alternative mode or combination of modes for three weeks knowing it's temporary. But I would not take kindly to suggestion that that longer commute should become the new normal.

On the other hand, if it normally takes me 30 minutes to commute by car and the alternative also takes 30 minutes... well, then it's not a big deal to make that change long term.
Logged
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Bruce

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2026
  • Transit Commuter

  • Age: 21
  • Location: Snohomish County, WA
  • Last Login: Today at 01:57:49 AM
    • Wikipedia
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #652 on: February 11, 2019, 11:48:06 PM »

I think people do have a tolerance for longer commutes by alternate modes, given that the time in transit can be used somewhat productively or leisurely (e.g. using your phone, which should be a big no-no for drivers).

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 928
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Last Login: Today at 05:57:05 AM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #653 on: February 12, 2019, 01:36:11 AM »

I think people do have a tolerance for longer commutes by alternate modes, given that the time in transit can be used somewhat productively or leisurely (e.g. using your phone, which should be a big no-no for drivers).
What kind of people? I would heavily disagree if we're talking about most people with families.
Logged

Henry

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4689
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Chicago, IL/Seattle, WA
  • Last Login: April 24, 2019, 10:28:05 AM
    • Henry Watson's Online Freeway
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #654 on: February 12, 2019, 10:27:42 AM »

Ever since the Loma Prieta earthquake of 1989, I have been scared to drive on double-decker freeways, especially in earthquake-prone areas like Seattle, but I wouldn't mind driving in tunnels at all, so that is a welcome change for me. Not to mention the forthcoming Embarcadero-esque transformation of the Alaskan Way.
Logged
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 9598
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 23
  • Location: Seattle and Tacoma, WA Vancouver, BC | Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: April 24, 2019, 08:21:38 PM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #655 on: February 12, 2019, 06:07:23 PM »

I think people do have a tolerance for longer commutes by alternate modes, given that the time in transit can be used somewhat productively or leisurely (e.g. using your phone, which should be a big no-no for drivers).
What kind of people? I would heavily disagree if we're talking about most people with families.

I think families (well, everyone) appreciate a consistent commute. Thing is with driving, it can really vary a lot. Especially with crashes or weather. Buses can be impacted by those things too, but less so with bus lanes. Light rail and metro trains are rarely affected by weather (and certainly not traffic), so they consistently take the same time to get from A to B.

A consistently long commute can be annoying, but it's much more tolerable by transit as you can do other things (as Bruce indicates).
Logged
Avid user of bit.ly. I would never post malicious links, but if you'd like to verify my links for peace of mind, feel free to use either of these sites. Thanks!

https://wheregoes.com/
http://getlinkinfo.com/

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 928
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Last Login: Today at 05:57:05 AM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #656 on: February 12, 2019, 08:01:20 PM »

I think people do have a tolerance for longer commutes by alternate modes, given that the time in transit can be used somewhat productively or leisurely (e.g. using your phone, which should be a big no-no for drivers).
What kind of people? I would heavily disagree if we're talking about most people with families.

I think families (well, everyone) appreciate a consistent commute. Thing is with driving, it can really vary a lot. Especially with crashes or weather. Buses can be impacted by those things too, but less so with bus lanes. Light rail and metro trains are rarely affected by weather (and certainly not traffic), so they consistently take the same time to get from A to B.

A consistently long commute can be annoying, but it's much more tolerable by transit as you can do other things (as Bruce indicates).
I can't argue with that. However with autonomous cars on the horizon, planners should be aware they might not have this advantage for long they should be looking at every gimmick they can to entice more people to use mass transit. One great thing about mass transit is the social aspect would be enhanced with things like bars or gathering areas on trains VS. having the entire train designed to pack as many people on as possible. They could get away with this by increasing frequencies to make up for the lost seats.

I am on the verge of completely giving up on mass transit in LA entirely as loyal red line user. I have to wait nearly 20 minutes, 8-12 minutes on average, and it is awful. There is nothing to do at the stations besides bury your face in your phone, it doesn't foster a very interactive experience, then when the trains finally come they're packed and smell like shit. I want to support Metro, but it's getting very hard to do so. 
Logged

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 9598
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 23
  • Location: Seattle and Tacoma, WA Vancouver, BC | Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: April 24, 2019, 08:21:38 PM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #657 on: February 13, 2019, 12:40:32 AM »

I think people do have a tolerance for longer commutes by alternate modes, given that the time in transit can be used somewhat productively or leisurely (e.g. using your phone, which should be a big no-no for drivers).
What kind of people? I would heavily disagree if we're talking about most people with families.

I think families (well, everyone) appreciate a consistent commute. Thing is with driving, it can really vary a lot. Especially with crashes or weather. Buses can be impacted by those things too, but less so with bus lanes. Light rail and metro trains are rarely affected by weather (and certainly not traffic), so they consistently take the same time to get from A to B.

A consistently long commute can be annoying, but it's much more tolerable by transit as you can do other things (as Bruce indicates).
I can't argue with that. However with autonomous cars on the horizon, planners should be aware they might not have this advantage for long they should be looking at every gimmick they can to entice more people to use mass transit. One great thing about mass transit is the social aspect would be enhanced with things like bars or gathering areas on trains VS. having the entire train designed to pack as many people on as possible. They could get away with this by increasing frequencies to make up for the lost seats.

I don't think there's any telling how autonomous cars will change our transport network. Seems to me that they'll probably need a network of grade-separated roads where they can operate at 200mph or something. Not that that would be any faster than a bullet train! Or just drive at the speeds we do now, but...better than us.

Typically trains and buses are designed to cram people in so that they are as efficient as possible. This way, they can increase frequency and try and pay back the taxpayers. Hard to do when an entire train car is devoted to drinks. Those could always be added to stations, though.

I am on the verge of completely giving up on mass transit in LA entirely as loyal red line user. I have to wait nearly 20 minutes, 8-12 minutes on average, and it is awful. There is nothing to do at the stations besides bury your face in your phone, it doesn't foster a very interactive experience, then when the trains finally come they're packed and smell like shit. I want to support Metro, but it's getting very hard to do so.

I'm becoming a regular Washington Metro rider myself. My experience has been good, as the trains come usually every 2-6 minutes, are clean, well lit, and have cell service. But you're right, it's mostly a phone-in-face, earbuds-in experience. People who are commuting aren't really social to begin with, but that's especially so on transit because it's perceived as rude to be super chatty or loud (or obnoxious).

But you highlight an issue with transit. It's only any good if its frequent and clean. All I can say is, you have to be ready with your wallet if you want that. But it can't just happen overnight. In the same way that road widening are lengthy and costly, transit upgrades can take a while and cost a fair amount. But as a measure of "people per square foot", it's still a wiser investment long-term.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 12:44:50 AM by jakeroot »
Logged
Avid user of bit.ly. I would never post malicious links, but if you'd like to verify my links for peace of mind, feel free to use either of these sites. Thanks!

https://wheregoes.com/
http://getlinkinfo.com/

MantyMadTown

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 574
  • UW-Madison

  • Age: 20
  • Location: Madison, WI
  • Last Login: Today at 03:38:28 AM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #658 on: February 13, 2019, 02:10:43 AM »

I don't think there's any telling how autonomous cars will change our transport network. Seems to me that they'll probably need a network of grade-separated roads where they can operate at 200mph or something. Not that that would be any faster than a bullet train! Or just drive at the speeds we do now, but...better than us.

I don't think we can achieve speeds that high unless we get manually-driven cars off the road entirely. You just can't get drivers to drive at that speed.
Logged
Forget the I-41 haters

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 928
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Last Login: Today at 05:57:05 AM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #659 on: February 13, 2019, 03:49:16 AM »


I think families (well, everyone) appreciate a consistent commute. Thing is with driving, it can really vary a lot. Especially with crashes or weather. Buses can be impacted by those things too, but less so with bus lanes. Light rail and metro trains are rarely affected by weather (and certainly not traffic), so they consistently take the same time to get from A to B.

A consistently long commute can be annoying, but it's much more tolerable by transit as you can do other things (as Bruce indicates).

I don't think there's any telling how autonomous cars will change our transport network. Seems to me that they'll probably need a network of grade-separated roads where they can operate at 200mph or something. Not that that would be any faster than a bullet train! Or just drive at the speeds we do now, but...better than us.

Typically trains and buses are designed to cram people in so that they are as efficient as possible. This way, they can increase frequency and try and pay back the taxpayers. Hard to do when an entire train car is devoted to drinks. Those could always be added to stations, though.[/quote]I still believe we are far enough away from widespread level 5 autonomous cars where transit planners can be comfortable they will still have the advantage of mass transit being superior over solo car driving, allowing for its users to safely multitask and such. There are pros and cons to each mode of transit on this one is just hard to beat.

I don't propose an entire train car be dedicated to drinks, but I would think on intercity lines such as MetroLink a level could be dedicated to a full service bar and perhaps a theatre room on each train. I don't think it would work on subways or light-rail but as you said, I think stations could be rethought and redesigned. I honestly don't know how other countries are in this respect, but when considering that it's also important to factor in their car culture as well.

Still, I agree we likely won't fully know the implications of fully self driving cars. This sort of technology, if one considers it to be AI, has the possibility to become the new industrial revolution, IMHO. 

I'm becoming a regular Washington Metro rider myself. My experience has been good, as the trains come usually every 2-6 minutes, are clean, well lit, and have cell service. But you're right, it's mostly a phone-in-face, earbuds-in experience. People who are commuting aren't really social to begin with, but that's especially so on transit because it's perceived as rude to be super chatty or loud (or obnoxious).

But you highlight an issue with transit. It's only any good if its frequent and clean. All I can say is, you have to be ready with your wallet if you want that. But it can't just happen overnight. In the same way that road widening are lengthy and costly, transit upgrades can take a while and cost a fair amount. But as a measure of "people per square foot", it's still a wiser investment long-term.
Yeah I will usually keep to myself on transit as to be mindful of others. I think however there is still something to be said being around others with the potential of interaction which is why I rate a higher social experience being a pro for mass transit over cars.

LA Metro is a complete mess, IMO. In this case, I find myself supporting quality over quantity. LA is desperately trying to build a vast rail network but at what cost? Bus service which accounts for a super majority of its ridership? It's existing rail lines which are falling in disrepair? Likewise with Van Nuys-San Fernando line(as is the case with Expo Line), it's essentially a glorified streetcar. You have to ask yourself, unless one lives right next to an expo line station, what is the advantage of taking the train in this case? That's even harder to justify if said person has a car just due to the long wait times at each station outside of rush hour.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 03:51:17 AM by Plutonic Panda »
Logged

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 928
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Last Login: Today at 05:57:05 AM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #660 on: February 13, 2019, 03:54:23 AM »

I don't think there's any telling how autonomous cars will change our transport network. Seems to me that they'll probably need a network of grade-separated roads where they can operate at 200mph or something. Not that that would be any faster than a bullet train! Or just drive at the speeds we do now, but...better than us.

I don't think we can achieve speeds that high unless we get manually-driven cars off the road entirely. You just can't get drivers to drive at that speed.
Two possibilities. One is that "manual(not referring to gear shifting)" driving will be outlawed either on certain corridors or perhaps entirely in certain areas. The other are new networks built perhaps like HO/T or Express lanes where self driving cars are able to achieve higher speeds.
Logged

MantyMadTown

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 574
  • UW-Madison

  • Age: 20
  • Location: Madison, WI
  • Last Login: Today at 03:38:28 AM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #661 on: February 13, 2019, 02:53:30 PM »

I don't think there's any telling how autonomous cars will change our transport network. Seems to me that they'll probably need a network of grade-separated roads where they can operate at 200mph or something. Not that that would be any faster than a bullet train! Or just drive at the speeds we do now, but...better than us.

I don't think we can achieve speeds that high unless we get manually-driven cars off the road entirely. You just can't get drivers to drive at that speed.
Two possibilities. One is that "manual(not referring to gear shifting)" driving will be outlawed either on certain corridors or perhaps entirely in certain areas. The other are new networks built perhaps like HO/T or Express lanes where self driving cars are able to achieve higher speeds.

Those sound like reasonable accommodations. If autonomous vehicles are allowed to travel at such high speeds, they should have designated roads for them but hopefully they won't take up so many of the roads that manual drivers won't have any roads to travel on. If I had an unlimited budget, I would create new roads specifically for autonomous vehicles to travel on, and designate express lanes for the rest (i.e. the most heavily traveled freeways).
Logged
Forget the I-41 haters

Bruce

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2026
  • Transit Commuter

  • Age: 21
  • Location: Snohomish County, WA
  • Last Login: Today at 01:57:49 AM
    • Wikipedia
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #662 on: February 13, 2019, 07:45:21 PM »

The US 99 sign is gone.

MNHighwayMan

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3630
  • Blue and gold forever!

  • Age: 27
  • Location: Des Moines
  • Last Login: Today at 01:26:46 AM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #663 on: February 13, 2019, 07:49:50 PM »

That has to mean that someone saved it then, right?
Logged

silverback1065

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2897
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Indianapolis
  • Last Login: April 22, 2019, 09:50:11 PM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #664 on: February 13, 2019, 07:54:17 PM »

That has to mean that someone saved it then, right?

contractor probably kept it. if the dot doesn't want it, they usually keep it. 
Logged

Bruce

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2026
  • Transit Commuter

  • Age: 21
  • Location: Snohomish County, WA
  • Last Login: Today at 01:57:49 AM
    • Wikipedia
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #665 on: February 16, 2019, 09:38:09 PM »

Viaduct demolition has officially begun on the mainline:


Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 928
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Last Login: Today at 05:57:05 AM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #666 on: February 16, 2019, 09:57:05 PM »

What’s the estimated completion date for the demolition and construction of whatever they are building in it’s place?
Logged

Bruce

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2026
  • Transit Commuter

  • Age: 21
  • Location: Snohomish County, WA
  • Last Login: Today at 01:57:49 AM
    • Wikipedia
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #667 on: February 16, 2019, 10:22:09 PM »

The demolition should be complete by the end of June.

The waterfront revitalization is being done in stages, concurrent with the redevelopment of the state ferry terminal at Colman Dock (which is planned to be finished in 2023).

The main project, creating the boulevard and park along Alaskan Way, should be opened to traffic in 2021 and finished completely in 2023. The new elevated parks and overlooks, along with the rebuilt ferry terminal bridge, will open around the same time.



This Seattle Times article has a lot of details about what the new waterfront will look like, assuming full funding and construction.

compdude787

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 450
  • Age: 23
  • Location: Lynnwood, WA
  • Last Login: April 19, 2019, 09:24:42 PM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #668 on: February 16, 2019, 11:55:39 PM »

I'm really looking forward to the new waterfront!

compdude787

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 450
  • Age: 23
  • Location: Lynnwood, WA
  • Last Login: April 19, 2019, 09:24:42 PM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #669 on: February 17, 2019, 12:21:32 AM »

I just uploaded a video showing the Alaskan Way Viaduct, as well as a video showing the walk through the new tunnel filmed on February 2nd. I know I already posted it elsewhere on the forum, (here), but I though it would be appropriate to post it here as well. Enjoy!

Bruce

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2026
  • Transit Commuter

  • Age: 21
  • Location: Snohomish County, WA
  • Last Login: Today at 01:57:49 AM
    • Wikipedia
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #670 on: February 18, 2019, 09:03:19 PM »

The north end of the viaduct is very much gone:

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 928
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Last Login: Today at 05:57:05 AM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #671 on: February 18, 2019, 09:44:28 PM »

If the Big Dig wasn't enough; I'm hoping once the waterfront and boulevard portion opens, it can show cities that investments like this, though costly and prone to overruns/missed deadlines, are worth it in the end.
Logged

Bruce

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2026
  • Transit Commuter

  • Age: 21
  • Location: Snohomish County, WA
  • Last Login: Today at 01:57:49 AM
    • Wikipedia
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #672 on: February 18, 2019, 11:08:32 PM »

If the Big Dig wasn't enough; I'm hoping once the waterfront and boulevard portion opens, it can show cities that investments like this, though costly and prone to overruns/missed deadlines, are worth it in the end.

I think we've long come to the conclusion that the whole tunnel wasn't needed. Hopefully cities do learn that highway removal is easy and painless once you cut through all the psuedoscience.

compdude787

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 450
  • Age: 23
  • Location: Lynnwood, WA
  • Last Login: April 19, 2019, 09:24:42 PM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #673 on: February 19, 2019, 02:04:02 AM »

If the Big Dig wasn't enough; I'm hoping once the waterfront and boulevard portion opens, it can show cities that investments like this, though costly and prone to overruns/missed deadlines, are worth it in the end.

I think we've long come to the conclusion that the whole tunnel wasn't needed. Hopefully cities do learn that highway removal is easy and painless once you cut through all the psuedoscience.

Well, it's still nice to have an alternate thru route through downtown. I-5 should not be the only high-capacity road through downtown. 99 functions as a nice reliever route, especially in the afternoons when traffic is really bad on I-5 SB in north Seattle.

Building the tunnel was a good compromise between getting that ugly viaduct off the waterfront and maintaining an alternate high-capacity route through downtown. It was 100% worth it in the end. I'll miss the views from the viaduct, but I'm looking forward to experiencing the waterfront without the viaduct and being able to enjoy the views while getting some exercise.

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 9598
  • U/Wash - Urban Design

  • Age: 23
  • Location: Seattle and Tacoma, WA Vancouver, BC | Arlington, VA
  • Last Login: April 24, 2019, 08:21:38 PM
Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
« Reply #674 on: February 19, 2019, 02:27:55 AM »

I think they're going to need to do some serious work near the north portal, if the backups towards Republican aren't reduced after the Dearborn exit opens. Miles-long backups within days of opening is not a good long-term indicator of its ability to handle traffic.
Logged
Avid user of bit.ly. I would never post malicious links, but if you'd like to verify my links for peace of mind, feel free to use either of these sites. Thanks!

https://wheregoes.com/
http://getlinkinfo.com/

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.