North American Union

[US 41]

I sort of think a NAU would be a good idea. I would only support the US and Canada being in it though. Open borders between the US and Canada would make trade and travel so much easier. I read that if the US and Canada combined their economies that we would have a larger economy than all the other countries in the world combined. Most of you will probably think that this is a bad idea, but it seems to work pretty good in Europe. There is now an ECU between Russia, Belarus, and Kazakstan. There is now no border patrol between those countries.

[exit322]

Sorry, the Alanland thread is closed.

[Pete from Boston]

I sort of think a NAU would be a good idea. I would only support the US and Canada being in it though.

English can be its official language (take that, Mexico).

[bandit957]

You don't have to have an NAU to have open borders.

And the EU is undemocratic and largely bad for workers.

[corco]

I support the idea of open borders.

The problem is that the US thinks that due to Canada's more lax immigration policies, opening the border would allow for the free flow of terrorists into America, turning it into a nightmarish hellscape.

Canada thinks that due to the US's lax gun laws, opening the border would allow for the free flow of guns into Canada, turning it into a nightmarish hellscape.

This in addition to several other issues. Honestly, I'd bet we see Canada enter Schengen or the British one before the US border is opened.

[english si]

it seems to work pretty good in Europe.

Open borders with the USA and Canada are a good idea. Ditto a 4 freedoms (movement of people, goods, services and capital) agreement that doesn't evolve into a Customs Union (as trading Canada would be hidden behind a US-desired protectionist high tariff).

[Big John]

I sort of think a NAU would be a good idea. I would only support the US and Canada being in it though.

English can be its official language (take that, Mexico).

Try getting Quebec to agree to that.

[Brandon]

I sort of think a NAU would be a good idea. I would only support the US and Canada being in it though.

English can be its official language (take that, Mexico).

Try getting Quebec to agree to that.

NON!

[Pete from Boston]

I sort of think a NAU would be a good idea. I would only support the US and Canada being in it though.

English can be its official language (take that, Mexico).

Try getting Quebec to agree to that.

NON!

Oh, Québec won't have anything to do with this.

[SteveG1988]

In the trucking industry NAFTA allows for some trade with semis.

I can take a load from Buffalo NY to Toronto ON, but not from Toronto ON to Monticon NB. But i can get a load in Toronto and deliver it to Buffalo. Canadian carriers have the same rule too. Cannot do US to US delivery, but can do US to Can and Can to US. It is just like an airline not based in the USA. Virgin Atlantic cannot connect US cities, but Virgin America can, since it is based in the USA.

What i would like to see is where 100% of debit and credit cards would work on both sides of the border without a single fee, and have a locked exchange rate. Will that mean the US Dollar and Canadian Dollar will cease to exist, and an "Amero" formed...no, more like acceptance is not mandatory on either side, but banks will be able to convert it to the national currency if a business deposits it, without fees.


Will this ever happen?

No. Just like Quebec...the USA has the south that wants everything to be "amurrican" no metric units, no dual language stuff, etc.

[vdeane]

What i would like to see is where 100% of debit and credit cards would work on both sides of the border without a single fee, and have a locked exchange rate. Will that mean the US Dollar and Canadian Dollar will cease to exist, and an "Amero" formed...no, more like acceptance is not mandatory on either side, but banks will be able to convert it to the national currency if a business deposits it, without fees.

Simply getting the cards to work properly at all everywhere will be an issue in and of itself.  Canadians cannot pay at the pump already due to their different zip code format.  And with Canada's adoption of chip-and-pin and America's coming adoption of chip-and-signature (it will be VERY difficult to obtain a true chip-and-pin card because our banks don't want to deal with the PIN), the use of American credit cards in Canada will only get more spotty until it becomes like the present situation in Europe (I believe I've read that it's already impossible to use an American card to pay at some gas pumps in Canada).

[ghYHZ]

.........the use of American credit cards in Canada will only get more spotty until it becomes like the present situation in Europe (I believe I've read that it's already impossible to use an American card to pay at some gas pumps in Canada).

Yes....but the card is not refused......just not as convenient. You have to take that extra step of going into the gas-bar to sign the receipt.

We're now into the second generation of chip & pin cards. Here's the new CIBC-Tim Horton's VISA with buttons built-into the card that light up depending on the account you're using. Pay with VISA.....or with your accumulated points.

https://www.cibc.com/ca/visa/doubledouble-visa-card.html   

[Dr Frankenstein]

Canadians cannot pay at the pump already due to their different zip code format.

It does work in many places. Suppose your Canadian postal code is H1A5B2, you type 15200 at the pump (but few people know the trick).

And with Canada's adoption of chip-and-pin and America's coming adoption of chip-and-signature (it will be VERY difficult to obtain a true chip-and-pin card because our banks don't want to deal with the PIN), the use of American credit cards in Canada will only get more spotty until it becomes like the present situation in Europe

Geez, what's wrong with American banks?

(I believe I've read that it's already impossible to use an American card to pay at some gas pumps in Canada).

True, but I think it might have been that way prior to the introduction of chip-and-pin.

[english si]

have a locked exchange rate.

Gold standard? or something like the Exchange Rate Mechanism?

There's a reason why even the most ardent Europhiles only see the Euro as a long term aim for the UK - the failure of the 'Eternal Recession Mechanism'. Of course, in Ireland and Greece and Spain it had the opposite effect: cheap money propping up a boom which then collapsed spectacularly...

[vdeane]

.........the use of American credit cards in Canada will only get more spotty until it becomes like the present situation in Europe (I believe I've read that it's already impossible to use an American card to pay at some gas pumps in Canada).

Yes....but the card is not refused......just not as convenient. You have to take that extra step of going into the gas-bar to sign the receipt.

In the US, if you want to pay inside, you have to guess before your pump your gas how much it will cost you to fill up and pre-pay.  I refuse to pay inside for that reason.  Is that not the case in Canada?

Geez, what's wrong with American banks?

They don't want to pay for the upgrade.  With chip-and-signature, they can pass all the costs onto merchants by mandating new readers if the merchant doesn't want to become 100% liable for fraudulent transactions.  With chip-and-pin, they actually have to upgrade their own infrastructure in addition to issuing new cards.  Plus they have to deal with the typical American resistance to change and fear the people won't accept entering a PIN, even though it's more convenient.

True, but I think it might have been that way prior to the introduction of chip-and-pin.

I wonder what caused that, then.  I hope this won't be a factor for the Quebec City meet as the credit card exchange rate is much better than the cash one (though I'll hopefully be able to avoid buying fuel in Canada anyways).

[realjd]

.........the use of American credit cards in Canada will only get more spotty until it becomes like the present situation in Europe (I believe I've read that it's already impossible to use an American card to pay at some gas pumps in Canada).

Yes....but the card is not refused......just not as convenient. You have to take that extra step of going into the gas-bar to sign the receipt.

In the US, if you want to pay inside, you have to guess before your pump your gas how much it will cost you to fill up and pre-pay.  I refuse to pay inside for that reason.  Is that not the case in Canada?

If you want to fill up completely you can almost always just leave your credit card with the clerk and they'll turn on the pump without a limit letting you pay up when you're done.

[hbelkins]

In the US, if you want to pay inside, you have to guess before your pump your gas how much it will cost you to fill up and pre-pay.  I refuse to pay inside for that reason.  Is that not the case in Canada?

My guess is most people don't fill up. I haven't filled up in 1,000 miles, and about the only driving I've done is from home to work, and maybe a couple of trips to town (5 miles one-way) on weekends. My luck runs such that if I fill up, the price of gas immediately goes down a dime the next day, so I just get about $20 at a time.

I remember when prepay with cash first came on the scene in my area. I could take a $20 bill inside to prepay for a fill-up, and get change back.

[mgk920]

.........the use of American credit cards in Canada will only get more spotty until it becomes like the present situation in Europe (I believe I've read that it's already impossible to use an American card to pay at some gas pumps in Canada).

Yes....but the card is not refused......just not as convenient. You have to take that extra step of going into the gas-bar to sign the receipt.

In the US, if you want to pay inside, you have to guess before your pump your gas how much it will cost you to fill up and pre-pay.  I refuse to pay inside for that reason.  Is that not the case in Canada?

If you want to fill up completely you can almost always just leave your credit card with the clerk and they'll turn on the pump without a limit letting you pay up when you're done.

I don't know, the stations around here in the Appleton, WI area don't do that.  I pump, pay cash inside and then head out.



Mike

[oscar]

.........the use of American credit cards in Canada will only get more spotty until it becomes like the present situation in Europe (I believe I've read that it's already impossible to use an American card to pay at some gas pumps in Canada).

Yes....but the card is not refused......just not as convenient. You have to take that extra step of going into the gas-bar to sign the receipt.

In the US, if you want to pay inside, you have to guess before your pump your gas how much it will cost you to fill up and pre-pay.  I refuse to pay inside for that reason.  Is that not the case in Canada?

I have to do that sometimes in Canada, with my card charged before I go back outside to pump, and if I guess wrong I either leave with less than a full tank of gas (cutting into the station's sales) or go back inside for a chargeback (hassle for both me and the station).  Fortunately, that's never happened to me in the more remote places where you dare not leave town with less than a full tank of gas -- there I can usually just leave my credit card inside and then go back inside to settle up once I've done pumping.

Occasionally I'll luck out and stop at a gas station where I can pay at the pump even with a U.S.-issued credit card.

[NJRoadfan]

They don't want to pay for the upgrade.  With chip-and-signature, they can pass all the costs onto merchants by mandating new readers if the merchant doesn't want to become 100% liable for fraudulent transactions.  With chip-and-pin, they actually have to upgrade their own infrastructure in addition to issuing new cards.  Plus they have to deal with the typical American resistance to change and fear the people won't accept entering a PIN, even though it's more convenient.

All the readers will support Chip-and-PIN anyway (they all have PIN pads for debit cards). Most folks already have the ability to set a PIN on their credit cards in order to use ATMs for cash advances. The infrastructure is there, its just a matter of activating it.

[ghYHZ]

.........the use of American credit cards in Canada will only get more spotty until it becomes like the present situation in Europe (I believe I've read that it's already impossible to use an American card to pay at some gas pumps in Canada).

Yes….but the card is not refused……just not as convenient. You have to take that extra step of going into the gas-bar to sign the receipt.

In the US, if you want to pay inside, you have to guess before your pump your gas how much it will cost you to fill up and pre-pay.  I refuse to pay inside for that reason.  Is that not the case in Canada?

If you want to fill up completely you can almost always just leave your credit card with the clerk and they'll turn on the pump without a limit letting you pay up when you're done.

I don't know, the stations around here in the Appleton, WI area don't do that.  I pump, pay cash inside and then head out.



Mike

Same here in the Maritimes......just pump then pay inside. You'll see pay in advance in some of the larger centres or it might be required between 10pm and 6am.

[vdeane]

They don't want to pay for the upgrade.  With chip-and-signature, they can pass all the costs onto merchants by mandating new readers if the merchant doesn't want to become 100% liable for fraudulent transactions.  With chip-and-pin, they actually have to upgrade their own infrastructure in addition to issuing new cards.  Plus they have to deal with the typical American resistance to change and fear the people won't accept entering a PIN, even though it's more convenient.

All the readers will support Chip-and-PIN anyway (they all have PIN pads for debit cards). Most folks already have the ability to set a PIN on their credit cards in order to use ATMs for cash advances. The infrastructure is there, its just a matter of activating it.

The first sentence is true, but actually adopting chip-and-pin means that banks must also be able to process "offline PIN" transactions, which would require a change on their end, not the merchant's.  That's the issue here.  They don't want to pay for it.

Setting a PIN for cash advances will NOT make the credit card work as a chip-and-pin card abroad.  First of all, that is often a separate PIN from the transaction one.  Second, the cards will still attempt chip-and-signature at any reader that supports it (which is essentially all of them, even at automated kiosks that can't process signature transactions or businesses that require a PIN) since it's the default, and neither yourself nor the merchant has any way to override this.

[Pete from Boston]

.........the use of American credit cards in Canada will only get more spotty until it becomes like the present situation in Europe (I believe I've read that it's already impossible to use an American card to pay at some gas pumps in Canada).

Yes….but the card is not refused……just not as convenient. You have to take that extra step of going into the gas-bar to sign the receipt.

In the US, if you want to pay inside, you have to guess before your pump your gas how much it will cost you to fill up and pre-pay.  I refuse to pay inside for that reason.  Is that not the case in Canada?

If you want to fill up completely you can almost always just leave your credit card with the clerk and they'll turn on the pump without a limit letting you pay up when you're done.

I don't know, the stations around here in the Appleton, WI area don't do that.  I pump, pay cash inside and then head out.



Mike

Same here in the Maritimes......just pump then pay inside. You'll see pay in advance in some of the larger centres or it might be required between 10pm and 6am.

This is pretty much an antiquated concept around here.  Too many drive-offs. 

[The Nature Boy]

.........the use of American credit cards in Canada will only get more spotty until it becomes like the present situation in Europe (I believe I've read that it's already impossible to use an American card to pay at some gas pumps in Canada).

Yes....but the card is not refused......just not as convenient. You have to take that extra step of going into the gas-bar to sign the receipt.

In the US, if you want to pay inside, you have to guess before your pump your gas how much it will cost you to fill up and pre-pay.  I refuse to pay inside for that reason.  Is that not the case in Canada?

If you want to fill up completely you can almost always just leave your credit card with the clerk and they'll turn on the pump without a limit letting you pay up when you're done.

I don't know, the stations around here in the Appleton, WI area don't do that.  I pump, pay cash inside and then head out.



Mike

Same here in the Maritimes......just pump then pay inside. You'll see pay in advance in some of the larger centres or it might be required between 10pm and 6am.

This is pretty much an antiquated concept around here.  Too many drive-offs.

In South Carolina, I've seen state issued stickers at gas stations that warn you that driving off could cost you your license. The funny thing is that none of these gas stations allow you to pump before paying.

I've never used my card to pump gas in Canada but I've had no trouble using it otherwise. I do sometimes run into problems with ATMs not accepting my card though.

(As a side note, all this talk of Canada is making me crave Harvey's and poutine)

[mtantillo]

They don't want to pay for the upgrade.  With chip-and-signature, they can pass all the costs onto merchants by mandating new readers if the merchant doesn't want to become 100% liable for fraudulent transactions.  With chip-and-pin, they actually have to upgrade their own infrastructure in addition to issuing new cards.  Plus they have to deal with the typical American resistance to change and fear the people won't accept entering a PIN, even though it's more convenient.

All the readers will support Chip-and-PIN anyway (they all have PIN pads for debit cards). Most folks already have the ability to set a PIN on their credit cards in order to use ATMs for cash advances. The infrastructure is there, its just a matter of activating it.

The first sentence is true, but actually adopting chip-and-pin means that banks must also be able to process "offline PIN" transactions, which would require a change on their end, not the merchant's.  That's the issue here.  They don't want to pay for it.

Setting a PIN for cash advances will NOT make the credit card work as a chip-and-pin card abroad.  First of all, that is often a separate PIN from the transaction one.  Second, the cards will still attempt chip-and-signature at any reader that supports it (which is essentially all of them, even at automated kiosks that can't process signature transactions or businesses that require a PIN) since it's the default, and neither yourself nor the merchant has any way to override this.

I honestly think a lot of the hype over chip cards is overblown. First, why on earth would a bank need to process an offline transaction? All credit card transactions that I've ever done have required real-time authentication, to prove that you have enough money in your account (debit with PIN) or that you have available credit (credit with signature). Plus they have to make sure the card is still valid and not stolen. If I report the card stolen, how would an "offline" merchant know to reject my card if it isn't somehow communicating with the bank?

I have a chip-and-signature card. Works great in both the US and Europe. Usually it spits out a receipt for me to sign and hand to the cashier, but one time it asked for a PIN. I typed in my cash advance PIN and it worked.

My bank tried to make it seem like mag stripe cards would never work in Europe, which is totally not true. As someone I know put it, in commerce, and especially the tourism industry, they want your money, and they will make sure they have a way to get it.

One reason I'm not a fan of a PIN is that you don't get rewards points when you use a PIN (because those process as debit), in order to get reward points, you have to sign and not enter a PIN, because signature = credit.

I've had my card rejected at gas pumps in Canada, which I attributed to being in a different country. So I went inside and presented the card, paid for the gas along with my snacks, and it worked just fine. Agree that pay-in-advance is annoying, but I know my car well enough to be able to estimate how much it costs to fill (a calculator helps with conversions in Canada, and I can round down by a couple of dollars).