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Author Topic: Garden State Parkway  (Read 222669 times)

famartin

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1150 on: September 13, 2018, 01:56:25 PM »

RE: ACE signing, that was a conscious decision because the ACE shield doesn't have enough recognition and the text is too small to be legible at speed.

That argument would suggest not signing the Parkway and Turnpike trailblazers either, since neither of them can be read at speed either.  Anyone not familiar with the area driving around probably has no clue what they are until they take a closer look.  It is kind of a disservice to the SJTA to not have included it, since the obvious goal of including the NJTP and GSP symbol in signs is to increase recognition.
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famartin

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1151 on: September 13, 2018, 01:59:25 PM »

RE: ACE signing, that was a conscious decision because the ACE shield doesn't have enough recognition and the text is too small to be legible at speed.

That argument would suggest not signing the Parkway and Turnpike trailblazers either, since neither of them can be read at speed either.  Anyone not familiar with the area driving around probably has no clue what they are until they take a closer look.  It is kind of a disservice to the SJTA to not have included it, since the obvious goal of including the NJTP and GSP symbol in signs is to increase recognition.

On a related note to signs that are hard to read, I only recently noticed that the train station symbol on the Woodcrest Station exit on I-295 says PATCO.  It took me a bit before I realized they had created a new Meadowlands logo, too (I'm guessing that was quite a few years ago now, but only recently have I spent a lot of time driving around New Jersey again).  So really, the only reason to include markers like that on signs is to increase recognition (which it does).
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famartin

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1152 on: September 13, 2018, 02:08:42 PM »

RE: ACE signing, that was a conscious decision because the ACE shield doesn't have enough recognition and the text is too small to be legible at speed.

That argument would suggest not signing the Parkway and Turnpike trailblazers either, since neither of them can be read at speed either.  Anyone not familiar with the area driving around probably has no clue what they are until they take a closer look.  It is kind of a disservice to the SJTA to not have included it, since the obvious goal of including the NJTP and GSP symbol in signs is to increase recognition.

On a related note to signs that are hard to read, I only recently noticed that the train station symbol on the Woodcrest Station exit on I-295 says PATCO.  It took me a bit before I realized they had created a new Meadowlands logo, too (I'm guessing that was quite a few years ago now, but only recently have I spent a lot of time driving around New Jersey again).  So really, the only reason to include markers like that on signs is to increase recognition (which it does).

One final point I'll add (and I realize I probably should've combined these three posts)... the idea that the ACE symbol is not very recognizable is a very, shall I say, "North Jersey" perspective.  Its certainly very recognizable to people in South Jersey, and probably in Philly too.
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bzakharin

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1153 on: September 13, 2018, 02:20:09 PM »

RE: ACE signing, that was a conscious decision because the ACE shield doesn't have enough recognition and the text is too small to be legible at speed.

That argument would suggest not signing the Parkway and Turnpike trailblazers either, since neither of them can be read at speed either.  Anyone not familiar with the area driving around probably has no clue what they are until they take a closer look.  It is kind of a disservice to the SJTA to not have included it, since the obvious goal of including the NJTP and GSP symbol in signs is to increase recognition.

On a related note to signs that are hard to read, I only recently noticed that the train station symbol on the Woodcrest Station exit on I-295 says PATCO.  It took me a bit before I realized they had created a new Meadowlands logo, too (I'm guessing that was quite a few years ago now, but only recently have I spent a lot of time driving around New Jersey again).  So really, the only reason to include markers like that on signs is to increase recognition (which it does).

One final point I'll add (and I realize I probably should've combined these three posts)... the idea that the ACE symbol is not very recognizable is a very, shall I say, "North Jersey" perspective.  Its certainly very recognizable to people in South Jersey, and probably in Philly too.
I don't know about recognizeability, but certain local roads in South Jersey are as littered with "TO [ACE]" signs as they are with "TO [GSP]" signs in North Jersey, for example NJ 41 has them as far north as Haddonfield, and NJ 124 has the Parkway ones as far west as Morristown. That said, the ACE trailblazers on highway signs are limited to NJ 42 (and the ACE itself of course), and even then, only approaching the split.
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famartin

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1154 on: September 13, 2018, 02:34:39 PM »

RE: ACE signing, that was a conscious decision because the ACE shield doesn't have enough recognition and the text is too small to be legible at speed.

That argument would suggest not signing the Parkway and Turnpike trailblazers either, since neither of them can be read at speed either.  Anyone not familiar with the area driving around probably has no clue what they are until they take a closer look.  It is kind of a disservice to the SJTA to not have included it, since the obvious goal of including the NJTP and GSP symbol in signs is to increase recognition.

On a related note to signs that are hard to read, I only recently noticed that the train station symbol on the Woodcrest Station exit on I-295 says PATCO.  It took me a bit before I realized they had created a new Meadowlands logo, too (I'm guessing that was quite a few years ago now, but only recently have I spent a lot of time driving around New Jersey again).  So really, the only reason to include markers like that on signs is to increase recognition (which it does).

One final point I'll add (and I realize I probably should've combined these three posts)... the idea that the ACE symbol is not very recognizable is a very, shall I say, "North Jersey" perspective.  Its certainly very recognizable to people in South Jersey, and probably in Philly too.
I don't know about recognizeability, but certain local roads in South Jersey are as littered with "TO [ACE]" signs as they are with "TO [GSP]" signs in North Jersey, for example NJ 41 has them as far north as Haddonfield, and NJ 124 has the Parkway ones as far west as Morristown. That said, the ACE trailblazers on highway signs are limited to NJ 42 (and the ACE itself of course), and even then, only approaching the split.

If by "Highway" you mean "Freeway", I would argue your last point is mainly because the only freeways that connect to the ACE are 42 and the GSP, and as mentioned, they used to be on the GSP signs too. 
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bzakharin

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1155 on: September 13, 2018, 03:19:44 PM »

If by "Highway" you mean "Freeway", I would argue your last point is mainly because the only freeways that connect to the ACE are 42 and the GSP, and as mentioned, they used to be on the GSP signs too. 
I do mean freeway. I've lapsed into local speak I guess. But for example I-295 sticks a "TO [Turnpike shield]" on just about every exit BGS where there is a Turnpike entrance nearby. There are no such signs for the ACE via NJ 42. I-76 has Turnpike shield on BGS's but no ACE shields.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1156 on: September 13, 2018, 03:36:23 PM »

The worst AC Expressway shields are those with 'Connector' written inside them.  Completely unreadable at slow speeds; much less at highway speeds.
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storm2k

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1157 on: September 13, 2018, 04:20:30 PM »

RE: ACE signing, that was a conscious decision because the ACE shield doesn't have enough recognition and the text is too small to be legible at speed.

On a related note to signs that are hard to read, I only recently noticed that the train station symbol on the Woodcrest Station exit on I-295 says PATCO.  It took me a bit before I realized they had created a new Meadowlands logo, too (I'm guessing that was quite a few years ago now, but only recently have I spent a lot of time driving around New Jersey again).  So really, the only reason to include markers like that on signs is to increase recognition (which it does).

The NJ Transit and Amtrak logos on this sign are hard to see at speed as well.
That argument would suggest not signing the Parkway and Turnpike trailblazers either, since neither of them can be read at speed either.  Anyone not familiar with the area driving around probably has no clue what they are until they take a closer look.  It is kind of a disservice to the SJTA to not have included it, since the obvious goal of including the NJTP and GSP symbol in signs is to increase recognition.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 10:57:19 PM by storm2k »
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Don'tKnowYet

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1158 on: September 13, 2018, 07:36:10 PM »

RE: ACE signing, that was a conscious decision because the ACE shield doesn't have enough recognition and the text is too small to be legible at speed.

That argument would suggest not signing the Parkway and Turnpike trailblazers either, since neither of them can be read at speed either.  Anyone not familiar with the area driving around probably has no clue what they are until they take a closer look.  It is kind of a disservice to the SJTA to not have included it, since the obvious goal of including the NJTP and GSP symbol in signs is to increase recognition.

On a related note to signs that are hard to read, I only recently noticed that the train station symbol on the Woodcrest Station exit on I-295 says PATCO.  It took me a bit before I realized they had created a new Meadowlands logo, too (I'm guessing that was quite a few years ago now, but only recently have I spent a lot of time driving around New Jersey again).  So really, the only reason to include markers like that on signs is to increase recognition (which it does).

One final point I'll add (and I realize I probably should've combined these three posts)... the idea that the ACE symbol is not very recognizable is a very, shall I say, "North Jersey" perspective.  Its certainly very recognizable to people in South Jersey, and probably in Philly too.

Two thoughts come to kind.  1.  Guide signs are designed for non-familiar users.  2.  Recognition by locals doesn't justify signing created or proposed by locals, if you will.  The DRBA' s logo for the Cape May Ferry is an embarrassment, or should I say, that the embarrassment is that they tried to introduce it into a highway setting.  South jersey and it's proliferation of Lucy the Elephant signs as an acceptable trailblazer is poor practice by their road authorities/decision makers.

The GSP has done nothing wrong by omitting the ACE Route Marker for Interchange 38.  Too much information in an interstate-to-interstate setting can be a problem, especially for the aforementioned non-familiar user.
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famartin

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1159 on: September 13, 2018, 07:55:29 PM »

RE: ACE signing, that was a conscious decision because the ACE shield doesn't have enough recognition and the text is too small to be legible at speed.

That argument would suggest not signing the Parkway and Turnpike trailblazers either, since neither of them can be read at speed either.  Anyone not familiar with the area driving around probably has no clue what they are until they take a closer look.  It is kind of a disservice to the SJTA to not have included it, since the obvious goal of including the NJTP and GSP symbol in signs is to increase recognition.

On a related note to signs that are hard to read, I only recently noticed that the train station symbol on the Woodcrest Station exit on I-295 says PATCO.  It took me a bit before I realized they had created a new Meadowlands logo, too (I'm guessing that was quite a few years ago now, but only recently have I spent a lot of time driving around New Jersey again).  So really, the only reason to include markers like that on signs is to increase recognition (which it does).

One final point I'll add (and I realize I probably should've combined these three posts)... the idea that the ACE symbol is not very recognizable is a very, shall I say, "North Jersey" perspective.  Its certainly very recognizable to people in South Jersey, and probably in Philly too.

Two thoughts come to kind.  1.  Guide signs are designed for non-familiar users.  2.  Recognition by locals doesn't justify signing created or proposed by locals, if you will.  The DRBA' s logo for the Cape May Ferry is an embarrassment, or should I say, that the embarrassment is that they tried to introduce it into a highway setting.  South jersey and it's proliferation of Lucy the Elephant signs as an acceptable trailblazer is poor practice by their road authorities/decision makers.

The GSP has done nothing wrong by omitting the ACE Route Marker for Interchange 38.  Too much information in an interstate-to-interstate setting can be a problem, especially for the aforementioned non-familiar user.
I would agree... except that the equally illegible GSP and NJTP markers are plastered all over highway signs, so its contradictory to have not also posted the ACE blazer. Hence my opening comment.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1160 on: September 13, 2018, 10:35:05 PM »

I'd say the NJTP trailblazers are extremely recognizable. The 4 large letters are the important part of that sign. The "Turnpike" written in small letters isn't as easily seen, but like the state written on an Interstate shield, it's not all that important.
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famartin

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1161 on: September 14, 2018, 07:06:56 AM »

I'd say the NJTP trailblazers are extremely recognizable. The 4 large letters are the important part of that sign. The "Turnpike" written in small letters isn't as easily seen, but like the state written on an Interstate shield, it's not all that important.
If you are a local, sure. Think about it from the perspective of someone who’s never visited the area, though.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1162 on: September 14, 2018, 08:18:57 AM »

I'd say the NJTP trailblazers are extremely recognizable. The 4 large letters are the important part of that sign. The "Turnpike" written in small letters isn't as easily seen, but like the state written on an Interstate shield, it's not all that important.
If you are a local, sure. Think about it from the perspective of someone who’s never visited the area, though.

Based on all the traffic I watch coming up thru Delaware into NJ and onto the Turnpike, they don't seem to have an issue with it.  And I've been doing that trip myself since 1993, well before GPSs...and still, never seemed to be an issue.
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odditude

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1163 on: September 14, 2018, 10:53:09 AM »

I'd say the NJTP trailblazers are extremely recognizable. The 4 large letters are the important part of that sign. The "Turnpike" written in small letters isn't as easily seen, but like the state written on an Interstate shield, it's not all that important.
If you are a local, sure. Think about it from the perspective of someone who’s never visited the area, though.

Based on all the traffic I watch coming up thru Delaware into NJ and onto the Turnpike, they don't seem to have an issue with it.  And I've been doing that trip myself since 1993, well before GPSs...and still, never seemed to be an issue.
additionally, note that adjacent states' agencies no issues with the recognizability of the Turnpike shield (for example, on I-95 NB in Delaware approaching the I-295 split).
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famartin

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1164 on: September 14, 2018, 10:53:20 AM »

I'd say the NJTP trailblazers are extremely recognizable. The 4 large letters are the important part of that sign. The "Turnpike" written in small letters isn't as easily seen, but like the state written on an Interstate shield, it's not all that important.
If you are a local, sure. Think about it from the perspective of someone who’s never visited the area, though.

Based on all the traffic I watch coming up thru Delaware into NJ and onto the Turnpike, they don't seem to have an issue with it.  And I've been doing that trip myself since 1993, well before GPSs...and still, never seemed to be an issue.

Well remember, all the signs also say either “New Jersey Turnpike” or “New Jersey - New York”. If only a NJTP blazer was posted, I’m sure there’d be a lot more lost motorists.
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famartin

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1165 on: September 14, 2018, 10:55:29 AM »

And again, we’re getting away from the issue here. I am fine and in fact would encourage posting of ALL trailblazers. The point is that on prominent signage, the NJTA omitted another agency’s.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1166 on: September 14, 2018, 12:07:54 PM »

And again, we’re getting away from the issue here. I am fine and in fact would encourage posting of ALL trailblazers. The point is that on prominent signage, the NJTA omitted another agency’s.

But as Alps mentioned, it was a collaborative decision to do so.

As part of the project, the NJTA widened the AC Expressway's overpass over the Parkway, so it's not as if the NJTA ignored the other agencies' facilities completely; in fact they gave it a nice upgrade.
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BrianP

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1167 on: September 14, 2018, 01:06:42 PM »

As part of the project, the NJTA widened the AC Expressway's overpass over the Parkway, so it's not as if the NJTA ignored the other agencies' facilities completely; in fact they gave it a nice upgrade.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was a compromise. So they deserve little if any credit.  Because flyover ramps are really called for there.  There should be flyover ramps at least for northbound to westbound and maybe to a lesser extent southbound to eastbound.  I say that since the former is a two-lane loop ramp. 
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1168 on: September 14, 2018, 01:34:28 PM »

As part of the project, the NJTA widened the AC Expressway's overpass over the Parkway, so it's not as if the NJTA ignored the other agencies' facilities completely; in fact they gave it a nice upgrade.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was a compromise. So they deserve little if any credit.  Because flyover ramps are really called for there.  There should be flyover ramps at least for northbound to westbound and maybe to a lesser extent southbound to eastbound.  I say that since the former is a two-lane loop ramp. 

Totally agree that flyover ramps are needed.  But that's really a whole different ballgame; not one that is easily done, especially in NJ.
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famartin

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1169 on: September 14, 2018, 09:49:02 PM »

And again, we’re getting away from the issue here. I am fine and in fact would encourage posting of ALL trailblazers. The point is that on prominent signage, the NJTA omitted another agency’s.

But as Alps mentioned, it was a collaborative decision to do so.

As part of the project, the NJTA widened the AC Expressway's overpass over the Parkway, so it's not as if the NJTA ignored the other agencies' facilities completely; in fact they gave it a nice upgrade.
You misread his post. He said it was a conscious decision, not a collaborative one.
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02 Park Ave

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1170 on: October 13, 2018, 02:49:53 PM »

Was Route 19 originally part of the Parkway?  I drove on it today for the first time it appears that it might have been.
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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1171 on: October 13, 2018, 03:09:41 PM »

Was Route 19 originally part of the Parkway?  I drove on it today for the first time it appears that it might have been.
It was originally planned as a Parkway spur to Paterson, but it was built as a full freeway.

roadman65

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1172 on: October 13, 2018, 10:25:33 PM »

https://goo.gl/maps/9TrgGFScyxB2 Is the Exit 7S gore sign with the SB GSP shield the only guide for the WB (or even EB as ditto for the other side) ACE for the Parkway South?
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jeffandnicole

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1173 on: October 14, 2018, 08:18:44 AM »

https://goo.gl/maps/9TrgGFScyxB2 Is the Exit 7S gore sign with the SB GSP shield the only guide for the WB (or even EB as ditto for the other side) ACE for the Parkway South?

https://goo.gl/maps/MigV5tZfUG92
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NJRoadfan

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Re: Garden State Parkway
« Reply #1174 on: October 14, 2018, 09:55:49 PM »

So far, only the Cape May and Bloomfield barrier tolls have been converted to full service only (that I've seen). With the elimination of the exact change lanes, they are switching to the MUTCD standard "FULL SERVICE" lane graphics at the plaza. Naturally the one (!) staffed lane at the Cape May plaza had a long line of cars at it.
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