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Author Topic: New York State Thruway  (Read 266810 times)

Beltway

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1625 on: September 18, 2019, 11:06:57 AM »

Is any new right-of-way needed?  If not, I don't see where they would have any say in the matter.  The Thruway has a very wide right-of-way, enough to handle a 6-lane widening project.
You realize this is a territory of sovereign nation (aka reservation), and the tribe retained land ownership, granting only easement for the road?  Even validity of that easement is being disputed by Senecas...

What exactly does that mean?   That they could claim ownership of the highway and use it for whatever purpose they want?
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1626 on: September 18, 2019, 11:42:14 AM »

Is any new right-of-way needed?  If not, I don't see where they would have any say in the matter.  The Thruway has a very wide right-of-way, enough to handle a 6-lane widening project.
You realize this is a territory of sovereign nation (aka reservation), and the tribe retained land ownership, granting only easement for the road?  Even validity of that easement is being disputed by Senecas...

What exactly does that mean?   That they could claim ownership of the highway and use it for whatever purpose they want?
Pretty much. It is their land and it is not subject to NYS laws. Treaties are between Senecas and Congress,  NYS is a third party here and there is little, if anything, state can legally do.

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Rothman

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1627 on: September 18, 2019, 11:57:35 AM »

The Senecas also have a history of laying burning tires across highways when relations get really sour.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1628 on: September 18, 2019, 11:58:40 AM »

Is any new right-of-way needed?  If not, I don't see where they would have any say in the matter.  The Thruway has a very wide right-of-way, enough to handle a 6-lane widening project.

As noted, the issue isn't right-of-way; volumes on that segment are around 27K per day, so a widening isn't even warranted. The issue is the deteriorated pavement quality - almost to the point of being a gravel road - exacerbated by years of winter weather and heavy truck traffic. You can get some idea of what it's like in Street View, but the most recent is from 2016, and it's gotten much worse since then.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1629 on: September 18, 2019, 12:08:18 PM »

Is any new right-of-way needed?  If not, I don't see where they would have any say in the matter.  The Thruway has a very wide right-of-way, enough to handle a 6-lane widening project.

As noted, the issue isn't right-of-way; volumes on that segment are around 27K per day, so a widening isn't even warranted. The issue is the deteriorated pavement quality - almost to the point of being a gravel road - exacerbated by years of winter weather and heavy truck traffic. You can get some idea of what it's like in Street View, but the most recent is from 2016, and it's gotten much worse since then.


From my prior travels through that area, even avoiding the stretch altogether -- exiting at US-20 in Irving (Exit 58) and rejoining at Exit 57-A -- isn't a bad idea.  For one thing, you can purchase no-name gasoline tax-free within the Seneca Reservation along US-20, and the road isn't loaded with too many traffic lights.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1630 on: September 18, 2019, 03:23:06 PM »

From my prior travels through that area, even avoiding the stretch altogether -- exiting at US-20 in Irving (Exit 58) and rejoining at Exit 57-A -- isn't a bad idea.  For one thing, you can purchase no-name gasoline tax-free within the Seneca Reservation along US-20, and the road isn't loaded with too many traffic lights.

I have been known to do that. The rez stations that look like modern gas stations generally have decent gas.

No.  The State absolutely will not do it without an agreement.

State will end up giving in to the Senecas in the end.

This. Similar thing happened with NY 17 through the Allegheny Reservation. NY won't do anything that might provoke the Senecas, because they HAVE been known to increase tensions. At this point, the Thruway through there needs a full reconstruction. It'll be a while before that happens.
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Beltway

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1631 on: September 18, 2019, 04:12:29 PM »

Is any new right-of-way needed?  If not, I don't see where they would have any say in the matter.  The Thruway has a very wide right-of-way, enough to handle a 6-lane widening project.
As noted, the issue isn't right-of-way; volumes on that segment are around 27K per day, so a widening isn't even warranted. The issue is the deteriorated pavement quality - almost to the point of being a gravel road - exacerbated by years of winter weather and heavy truck traffic. You can get some idea of what it's like in Street View, but the most recent is from 2016, and it's gotten much worse since then.

So the highway has been there for over 60 years.  They have to ask for permission before they can rehab the pavement?
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1632 on: September 18, 2019, 04:16:23 PM »

So the highway has been there for over 60 years.  They have to ask for permission before they can rehab the pavement?

I'm no expert, but my understanding is yes, because of the decades-long feud, in which the Senecas are claiming the state didn't have the right to build the Thruway through there in the first place.
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Rothman

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1633 on: September 18, 2019, 05:06:11 PM »

Is any new right-of-way needed?  If not, I don't see where they would have any say in the matter.  The Thruway has a very wide right-of-way, enough to handle a 6-lane widening project.
As noted, the issue isn't right-of-way; volumes on that segment are around 27K per day, so a widening isn't even warranted. The issue is the deteriorated pavement quality - almost to the point of being a gravel road - exacerbated by years of winter weather and heavy truck traffic. You can get some idea of what it's like in Street View, but the most recent is from 2016, and it's gotten much worse since then.

So the highway has been there for over 60 years.  They have to ask for permission before they can rehab the pavement?
Wait...how long have the Senecas been there... :D
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Beltway

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1634 on: September 18, 2019, 05:10:27 PM »

So the highway has been there for over 60 years.  They have to ask for permission before they can rehab the pavement?
Wait...how long have the Senecas been there... :D

I would have thought that they worked all that out in the 1950s before they built the highway.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1635 on: September 18, 2019, 05:13:12 PM »

So the highway has been there for over 60 years.  They have to ask for permission before they can rehab the pavement?
Wait...how long have the Senecas been there... :D

I would have thought that they worked all that out in the 1950s before they built the highway.
As with all foreign nations, treaties and agreements change.
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Beltway

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1636 on: September 18, 2019, 05:42:13 PM »

So the highway has been there for over 60 years.  They have to ask for permission before they can rehab the pavement?
Wait...how long have the Senecas been there... :D
I would have thought that they worked all that out in the 1950s before they built the highway.
As with all foreign nations, treaties and agreements change.

Where else has something like this happened?  There are Indian reservations all over the country.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1637 on: September 18, 2019, 05:45:54 PM »



So the highway has been there for over 60 years.  They have to ask for permission before they can rehab the pavement?
Wait...how long have the Senecas been there... :D
I would have thought that they worked all that out in the 1950s before they built the highway.
As with all foreign nations, treaties and agreements change.

Where else has something like this happened?  There are Indian reservations all over the country.

Everywhere an American Indian nation asserted its sovereignty.
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thenetwork

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1638 on: September 18, 2019, 07:04:09 PM »

From my prior travels through that area, even avoiding the stretch altogether -- exiting at US-20 in Irving (Exit 58) and rejoining at Exit 57-A -- isn't a bad idea.  For one thing, you can purchase no-name gasoline tax-free within the Seneca Reservation along US-20, and the road isn't loaded with too many traffic lights.

I have been known to do that. The rez stations that look like modern gas stations generally have decent gas.

No.  The State absolutely will not do it without an agreement.

State will end up giving in to the Senecas in the end.

This. Similar thing happened with NY 17 through the Allegheny Reservation. NY won't do anything that might provoke the Senecas, because they HAVE been known to increase tensions. At this point, the Thruway through there needs a full reconstruction. It'll be a while before that happens.

Same thing is going on on the last remaining 2x2 segment of I-10 between Phoenix and Tucson.  AzDOT is getting nowhere in convincing the reservation there in widening the road there.
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Alps

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1639 on: September 18, 2019, 08:50:34 PM »

Is any new right-of-way needed?  If not, I don't see where they would have any say in the matter.  The Thruway has a very wide right-of-way, enough to handle a 6-lane widening project.

As noted, the issue isn't right-of-way; volumes on that segment are around 27K per day, so a widening isn't even warranted. The issue is the deteriorated pavement quality - almost to the point of being a gravel road - exacerbated by years of winter weather and heavy truck traffic. You can get some idea of what it's like in Street View, but the most recent is from 2016, and it's gotten much worse since then.


From my prior travels through that area, even avoiding the stretch altogether -- exiting at US-20 in Irving (Exit 58) and rejoining at Exit 57-A -- isn't a bad idea.  For one thing, you can purchase no-name gasoline tax-free within the Seneca Reservation along US-20, and the road isn't loaded with too many traffic lights.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1640 on: September 18, 2019, 09:00:07 PM »

I don't quite get this. If the original easement to build the road is legal (have the courts ruled on this?) then doesn't the State have the legal right to maintain the road that the Senecas allowed them to build in a contract of some sort back in 1954? Isn't the original agreement still legally binding? And wouldn't it have included language that the State was legally responsible for maintenance of the road? I can't believe that such a stipulation would been overlooked.

But then again we're talking about a Thruway Authority that didn't think beyond a fifty-year lifespan (Tappan Zee Br.) Maybe they really never thought about having to repave the road some years later.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1641 on: September 18, 2019, 09:05:02 PM »

I don't quite get this. If the original easement to build the road is legal (have the courts ruled on this?) then doesn't the State have the legal right to maintain the road that the Senecas allowed them to build in a contract of some sort back in 1954? Isn't the original agreement still legally binding? And wouldn't it have included language that the State was legally responsible for maintenance of the road? I can't believe that such a stipulation would been overlooked.
I can understand the issues of acquiring more right-of-way and obtaining that from an Indian nation, such as the proposed US-219 freeway projects in WNY.

But if they are simply rehabbing pavement and/or adding lanes within the existing right-of-way, like you say the rule of law and the courts should allow and support those actions.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1642 on: September 18, 2019, 09:05:20 PM »

I don't quite get this. If the original easement to build the road is legal (have the courts ruled on this?) then doesn't the State have the legal right to maintain the road that the Senecas allowed them to build in a contract of some sort back in 1954? Isn't the original agreement still legally binding? And wouldn't it have included language that the State was legally responsible for maintenance of the road? I can't believe that such a stipulation would been overlooked.

But then again we're talking about a Thruway Authority that didn't think beyond a fifty-year lifespan (Tappan Zee Br.) Maybe they really never thought about having to repave the road some years later.

You're talking international treaties now, not just legislation.

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1643 on: September 18, 2019, 09:16:04 PM »

Point taken Alps, but who has final authority on this? I assume the Federal Courts, or (no sarcasm intended) would it have to be decided by the United Nations if it's an international treaty?
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1644 on: September 18, 2019, 10:43:26 PM »

Since when does the UN oversee bilateral treaties? :D

Federal courts would hold certain jurisdiction.

It's just the fact of the matter due to the current legal framework that an agreement needs to be had between NYSTA and the Seneca Nation.  That's really the end of it.

You guys who want to send the Army have them again are free to feel that way, but good luck with seeing those horrible political optics come to fruition. :D
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1645 on: September 19, 2019, 07:33:18 AM »

But then again we're talking about a Thruway Authority that didn't think beyond a fifty-year lifespan (Tappan Zee Br.) Maybe they really never thought about having to repave the road some years later.

Those circumstances were different. Most steel girder highway bridges were designed with a 50 or so year lifespan (from what I recall reading in a trade magazine a while back), and steel bridges like the Tappan Zee were notoriously difficult and costly to maintain and inspect. Additionally, material shortages during the Korean War led to shortcuts in the bridge's materials and it was only designed for a 50-year lifespan with a modest amount of vehicles traveling over it (totally not the case today).
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1646 on: September 19, 2019, 07:39:08 AM »

What highway agency was looking 50 years into the future in the 1950s with respect to its designs? 
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1647 on: September 19, 2019, 08:12:19 PM »

New Jersey Turnpike Authority was at least more than other similar agencies. The huge tri-level overpass where the Garden State Pkwy. crosses over the Turnpike was built with substantial room for Turnpike expansion. And their bridges over Newark Bay and the Passaic and Hackensack Rivers, all built around the same time as the Thruway haven't needed replacement from deterioration.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 08:14:49 PM by SignBridge »
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1648 on: September 19, 2019, 08:18:36 PM »

The sovereignty of Indian tribes is not absolute.  They are still under Federal jurisdiction and all those laws apply.  Most state laws also apply, save for those which conflict with Tribal law.  Generally, the Tribal courts only handle disputes between its members.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1649 on: September 19, 2019, 09:49:58 PM »

As noted, the issue isn't right-of-way […]

So what, then, is the issue? What specific law or treaty condition—or even general principle—do the Senecas cite that would prevent NYSTA from carrying out maintenance on the highway? (The article isn't immediately readable to all of us.)
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