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Author Topic: New York State Thruway  (Read 305204 times)

machias

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1925 on: June 26, 2020, 01:35:10 PM »

If NYSTA is converting from their traditional toll-ticket type system to a main-line barrier system like Massachusetts did on I-90, that would leave them free to renumber the exits by Interstate route. It would eliminate the problem of two exits with the same number, which would have been an issue in the traditional toll system.

But it might cause a problem with 911 callers to the Twy. Authority communications center reporting an incident say at Exit 24 and then the question would be well which Exit-24? And trust me half the callers would get it wrong when asked which Interstate route they were on. Food for thought.

Are we sure the same 911 center would be answering a call for an emergency at Exit 24, which would be about 450 miles from the other Exit 24?
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lstone19

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1926 on: June 26, 2020, 01:48:56 PM »

NO...  The mileage should default to either I-90 or I-87, starting at the southern/western terminus, as stated by the MUTCD.  They can keep the Thruway miles from the NYC line to Ripley as an internal reference or similar.  Having the first exit on I-90 be "Exit 496" is only going to confuse travelers even further than they already are on our convoluted system of highways.

We will just have to disagree. I doubt most travelers will be confused because as I stated, I doubt most have any awareness that roads are normally numbered west to east. The only people who will notice are those who know the standard and they won't be confused, at worst they'll wonder why it's backwards.

When I spent much of my time in NYS, I knew very few people who referred to parts of the Thruway by route number (maybe I-95 for the NE Thruway but not for the mainline). Thanks to the long ago goofy routing of I-87 via what's now I-684, thinking of the segment south of Albany as I-87 never reached significance because for many years it wasn't in its entirety. Go back 50 years and if you were giving someone directions from Albany to NYC, would you say " take I-87 south to Newburgh, then the unnumbered Thruway to Suffern, then I-87 to Elmsford, and then I-87 to NYC" or would you just say "take the Thruway south to NYC".

While the MUTCD may say otherwise, to me an established name like the "New York State Thruway" is just as valid a highway designator as is a route number and since numbering relative to one designation creates a conflict with numbering relative to the other, something has to give. To me, it's always been Thruway first and number second. Until and unless the Thruway name goes away, IMHO, it needs to be numbered as one road and not a mix of the underlying route numbers.
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vdeane

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1927 on: June 26, 2020, 01:54:49 PM »

If NYSTA is converting from their traditional toll-ticket type system to a main-line barrier system like Massachusetts did on I-90, that would leave them free to renumber the exits by Interstate route. It would eliminate the problem of two exits with the same number, which would have been an issue in the traditional toll system.

But it might cause a problem with 911 callers to the Twy. Authority communications center reporting an incident say at Exit 24 and then the question would be well which Exit-24? And trust me half the callers would get it wrong when asked which Interstate route they were on. Food for thought.
Physically, it's a hybrid system, with none of the "ticket" systems including the switch from I-90 to I-87 or the area around it.  As for how it will be billed, I'm not sure, but the fact that none of the new mainline gantries have names suggests that they may bill as a virtual ticket system, like MA does.

So if the NYSTA moves to mileage exit numbers, unless their goal is to de-emphasize the Thruway name (I doubt it) in favor of the route numbers, I'd still prefer it be from 0 at the NYC line to 496 at Ripley and not try to distinguish between I-87 and I-90.
One thing to keep in mind is that NY never emphasized the Thruway to the same degree as neighboring states emphasized their toll roads, at least not in my lifetime.  Reassurance markers are just I-87 or just I-90.  Even some guide signs don't include the Thruway.  Meanwhile, the MassPike and NJ Turnpike post their shields religiously, and the PTC has gigantic oversized shields at Turnpike junctions.

This ultimately comes down to the question of who are roads numbered for.  Locals will adapt, but someone from out of the area who hasn't even heard of the Thruway could get confused, especially as it isn't emphasized on signs.
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lstone19

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1928 on: June 26, 2020, 03:34:17 PM »

One thing to keep in mind is that NY never emphasized the Thruway to the same degree as neighboring states emphasized their toll roads, at least not in my lifetime.  Reassurance markers are just I-87 or just I-90.  Even some guide signs don't include the Thruway.  Meanwhile, the MassPike and NJ Turnpike post their shields religiously, and the PTC has gigantic oversized shields at Turnpike junctions.

This ultimately comes down to the question of who are roads numbered for.  Locals will adapt, but someone from out of the area who hasn't even heard of the Thruway could get confused, especially as it isn't emphasized on signs.


Valerie, you are quite a but younger than me so your take is interesting (but I'm glad you included "at least not in my lifetime"). You may well be correct that they're de-emphasizing the name (I remember three or four years ago that it seemed every single press release at http://www.thruway.ny.gov/news/pressrel/index.html started "Thruway Authority Announces ..." (now only about half do) as if getting the Thruway Authority name out front and center was the most important thing.

But the Thruway name is not going away anytime soon. My opinion is if they want to number the I-87 and I-90 segments separately, they first need to make name modifications so that the main line isn't all "New York Thruway". You'd want to keep Thruway in the name but just like there is the New England Thruway and Niagara Thruway, maybe Hudson River Thruway for the I-87 segment and for I-90, Lake Erie Thruway for Pennsylvania to Buffalo, Erie Canal Thruway for Buffalo to Albany, and Berkshire Thruway for the current Berkshire Spur. Start emphasizing those names for a few years so people start using them instead of the generic "Thruway", then renumber. Otherwise, you will lead to confusion when people aren't sure what part of "the Thruway" they're on.

What you don't want to do is turn it into the confused mess that is the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Looking at their website, I see they have renumbered the I-95 section. Which means that for the traveler heading westbound off the NJ Turnpike, the exit numbers, in order, are 42, , then take exit 40 to stay on the Turnpike, 351, 343, 340, 339, 20, 333 (and then finally decreasing to the Ohio line). Using the I-476 exit number (20) on the Turnpike mainline is just plain stupid (and I confirmed on Google Street View that that is what they did). They really should bury the Pennsylvania Turnpike name as it just creates the expectation of a consistency that is no longer there.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1929 on: June 26, 2020, 05:10:09 PM »

In this area (western NY, several hundred miles west of I-87), "Thruway" and "I-90" are basically synonyms.
To me, the part of the Thruway south of Albany is just I-87, not the Thruway. That's how I avoid confusion with the Thruway that I know and love: I-90  :)
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1930 on: June 26, 2020, 05:43:46 PM »

Having figured out what the mileage based exits would be for I-87 and I-90 as individual highways, there would only be 2 instances of duplicate exit numbers on the mainline (the Exit 1 on I-87 would be on the Deegan).  Exit 10 A/B on I-87 would be in Yonkers for Mile Square Rd and the Cross County and Exit 10 on I-90 would be in Westfield for NY 394 (about 483 miles apart).  The other would be Exit 68, which on I-87 would be in Newburgh for I-84/NY 17K and on I-90 would be for NY 400/NY 16 in West Seneca (about 368 miles apart).
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1931 on: June 26, 2020, 05:44:59 PM »

In this area (western NY, several hundred miles west of I-87), "Thruway" and "I-90" are basically synonyms.
To me, the part of the Thruway south of Albany is just I-87, not the Thruway. That's how I avoid confusion with the Thruway that I know and love: I-90  :)

And yet I’m of an age where the Thruway south of Albany would never be called I-87 because for so many years, much of it wasn’t. And throw in how I-87 made its way from the Northway to the Thruway (we do love to think of those things here). Today’s Thruway Exit 24, as bad as it is for I-87, is a vast improvement of the one from 40+ years ago, a simple trumpet indistinguishable from any other trumpet with southbound I-87 entering via the inside loop of the trumpet. Both I-87 and I-90 back then exited and entered the Thruway via slow ramps no faster than any other interchange.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1932 on: June 26, 2020, 11:04:51 PM »

In Westchester county, I've never heard people refer to the highway as the "thruway", I've only ever heard 87... I think the I-87 shields have a big effect over here.
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Rothman

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1933 on: June 26, 2020, 11:51:59 PM »

In this area (western NY, several hundred miles west of I-87), "Thruway" and "I-90" are basically synonyms.
To me, the part of the Thruway south of Albany is just I-87, not the Thruway. That's how I avoid confusion with the Thruway that I know and love: I-90  :)

And yet I’m of an age where the Thruway south of Albany would never be called I-87 because for so many years, much of it wasn’t. And throw in how I-87 made its way from the Northway to the Thruway (we do love to think of those things here). Today’s Thruway Exit 24, as bad as it is for I-87, is a vast improvement of the one from 40+ years ago, a simple trumpet indistinguishable from any other trumpet with southbound I-87 entering via the inside loop of the trumpet. Both I-87 and I-90 back then exited and entered the Thruway via slow ramps no faster than any other interchange.
Time for the old dog to learn new tricks.
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RobbieL2415

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1934 on: June 27, 2020, 11:57:29 PM »

Possibly stupid idea:

Give all exits in the Thruway system a letter prefix:

New England Thruway: NE-##
Berkshire Extension: already B-##
Thruway Mainline: M-##
Niagara Thruway: N-##
GSP Connector: G-##

Free I-90 would be given mileage-based exits from the split from the Berkshire Conn. to I-87.

I-87 exits will switch to mileage-based at the beginning of the Northway. The one exit on the non I-87 Northway for the Crossgates Mall becomes unnumbered.

Dual mile markers are displayed on I-87 from the beginning of the Mainline to the Northway.  Each mileage set follows its respective route. Every mile marker within the Thruway system will carry the same letter prefix. So, an example Mainline setup would be:

|NYST  |       | I-87 |
|   M    |       |   1   |
|   1     |       |   2   |
|   2     |       |   3   |
|   3     |
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storm2k

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1935 on: June 28, 2020, 12:18:44 PM »

One thing to keep in mind is that NY never emphasized the Thruway to the same degree as neighboring states emphasized their toll roads, at least not in my lifetime.  Reassurance markers are just I-87 or just I-90.  Even some guide signs don't include the Thruway.  Meanwhile, the MassPike and NJ Turnpike post their shields religiously, and the PTC has gigantic oversized shields at Turnpike junctions.

I've never understood quite how NYSTA or NYSDOT have tried to figure out how to emphasize that they're on the Thurway, because they don't put Thruway shields on their pullthrus or reassurance shields, but NYSDOT is pretty good about putting them on sign assemblies near Thruway interchanges. It is a stark contrast to the NJ Turnpike, which, until recently, really did its damnedest to deemphasize that a major super important interstate was signed along its route.
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cl94

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1936 on: June 28, 2020, 01:03:04 PM »

Possibly stupid idea:

Give all exits in the Thruway system a letter prefix:

New England Thruway: NE-##
Berkshire Extension: already B-##
Thruway Mainline: M-##
Niagara Thruway: N-##
GSP Connector: G-##

Free I-90 would be given mileage-based exits from the split from the Berkshire Conn. to I-87.

I-87 exits will switch to mileage-based at the beginning of the Northway. The one exit on the non I-87 Northway for the Crossgates Mall becomes unnumbered.

FHWA wants I-87 and I-90 to each have ONE set of exits as part of any switch. Basically, if they're switching, they want it to be done properly. Which means no more Thruway exit numbers.

Needless to say, NYSTA has no plans to switch anytime soon and you should expect 87 and 90 to be the last Interstates in the state to become distance-based.
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machias

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1937 on: June 28, 2020, 05:48:15 PM »

Possibly stupid idea:

Give all exits in the Thruway system a letter prefix:

New England Thruway: NE-##
Berkshire Extension: already B-##
Thruway Mainline: M-##
Niagara Thruway: N-##
GSP Connector: G-##

Free I-90 would be given mileage-based exits from the split from the Berkshire Conn. to I-87.

I-87 exits will switch to mileage-based at the beginning of the Northway. The one exit on the non I-87 Northway for the Crossgates Mall becomes unnumbered.

FHWA wants I-87 and I-90 to each have ONE set of exits as part of any switch. Basically, if they're switching, they want it to be done properly. Which means no more Thruway exit numbers.

Needless to say, NYSTA has no plans to switch anytime soon and you should expect 87 and 90 to be the last Interstates in the state to become distance-based.

NYSDOT should do some further good faith on renumbering and renumber “Free 90” in the Capital District with exit numbers starting at 349.
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vdeane

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1938 on: June 28, 2020, 09:53:20 PM »

Needless to say, NYSTA has no plans to switch anytime soon and you should expect 87 and 90 to be the last Interstates in the state to become distance-based.
Yeah, all those new gore signs they're putting up definitely don't have room for an extra digit, so they evidently expect to stay sequential for a while.
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RobbieL2415

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1939 on: June 29, 2020, 12:59:42 PM »

Possibly stupid idea:

Give all exits in the Thruway system a letter prefix:

New England Thruway: NE-##
Berkshire Extension: already B-##
Thruway Mainline: M-##
Niagara Thruway: N-##
GSP Connector: G-##

Free I-90 would be given mileage-based exits from the split from the Berkshire Conn. to I-87.

I-87 exits will switch to mileage-based at the beginning of the Northway. The one exit on the non I-87 Northway for the Crossgates Mall becomes unnumbered.

FHWA wants I-87 and I-90 to each have ONE set of exits as part of any switch. Basically, if they're switching, they want it to be done properly. Which means no more Thruway exit numbers.

Needless to say, NYSTA has no plans to switch anytime soon and you should expect 87 and 90 to be the last Interstates in the state to become distance-based.
I don't associate the individual Interstate numbers with the Thruway Mainline. I don't know of anyone who disagrees.

IMO if the FHWA wants to say that the Thruway is part of I-87 and I-90, it should be signed but not touch the exit numbers. I know this goes against every regulation in the book. The Thruway predates the Interstate system, it has a historical significance to the State of New York, and for the purpose of preserving that history the exit numbers should reflect it's history.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 01:04:06 PM by RobbieL2415 »
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KEVIN_224

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1940 on: June 29, 2020, 08:31:08 PM »

I would renumber the exits and mileposts according to I-90 and I-87, much like the Pennsylvania Turnpike does with the mainline and NE extension, or what Connecticut does with I-95 and I-395. It makes more sense that way I think, and it's less confusing to not just people who live there, but newcomers and travelers too.

No longer in Connecticut. I-395 from the I-95 split in Waterford north to the MA border is now mileage-based exiting.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1941 on: June 30, 2020, 12:13:49 AM »

Possibly stupid idea:

Give all exits in the Thruway system a letter prefix:

New England Thruway: NE-##
Berkshire Extension: already B-##
Thruway Mainline: M-##
Niagara Thruway: N-##
GSP Connector: G-##

Free I-90 would be given mileage-based exits from the split from the Berkshire Conn. to I-87.

I-87 exits will switch to mileage-based at the beginning of the Northway. The one exit on the non I-87 Northway for the Crossgates Mall becomes unnumbered.

FHWA wants I-87 and I-90 to each have ONE set of exits as part of any switch. Basically, if they're switching, they want it to be done properly. Which means no more Thruway exit numbers.

Needless to say, NYSTA has no plans to switch anytime soon and you should expect 87 and 90 to be the last Interstates in the state to become distance-based.
I don't associate the individual Interstate numbers with the Thruway Mainline. I don't know of anyone who disagrees.

IMO if the FHWA wants to say that the Thruway is part of I-87 and I-90, it should be signed but not touch the exit numbers. I know this goes against every regulation in the book. The Thruway predates the Interstate system, it has a historical significance to the State of New York, and for the purpose of preserving that history the exit numbers should reflect it's history.
I disagree. Now you know of someone.

Buffaboy

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1942 on: July 02, 2020, 12:20:23 AM »

http://archive.is/WI01X

This came up on my feed today.  With everything else going on, its somehow a priority to rename the Thruway?   :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Fredrick Douglass is an American hero.

But it's frivolous to rename the Thruway for no reason. It's not productive at all, it's merely symbolism.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1943 on: July 02, 2020, 12:26:53 AM »

In Westchester county, I've never heard people refer to the highway as the "thruway", I've only ever heard 87... I think the I-87 shields have a big effect over here.

It might also be due to that fact that it's a free road in Westchester County IIRC
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1944 on: July 02, 2020, 12:48:24 AM »

http://archive.is/WI01X

This came up on my feed today.  With everything else going on, its somehow a priority to rename the Thruway?   :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Fredrick Douglass is an American hero.

But it's frivolous to rename the Thruway for no reason. It's not productive at all, it's merely symbolism.
That's the same way I felt about renaming Hempstead LIRR station and the adjacent bus terminal for Rosa Parks. She may have been great for taking on Jim Crow in the public transit system of the deep south, but from what I recall, there were no whites only seats on the buses of any of the predecessors to the MSBA.

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jp the roadgeek

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1945 on: July 02, 2020, 02:16:59 AM »

In Westchester county, I've never heard people refer to the highway as the "thruway", I've only ever heard 87... I think the I-87 shields have a big effect over here.

It might also be due to that fact that it's a free road in Westchester County IIRC

There is a toll gantry in Ardsley. 
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1946 on: July 02, 2020, 07:45:32 AM »

In Westchester county, I've never heard people refer to the highway as the "thruway", I've only ever heard 87... I think the I-87 shields have a big effect over here.
It might also be due to that fact that it's a free road in Westchester County IIRC
There is a toll gantry in Ardsley.

Is that one of the ones that's free for cars?
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lstone19

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1947 on: July 02, 2020, 08:17:15 AM »

There is a toll gantry in Ardsley.
Is that one of the ones that's free for cars?

No. You're thinking of Spring Valley (located between exits 14A and 14B) which is no toll for regular automobiles and is northbound only. Ardsley is between exits 6A and 7 and is in both directions.
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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1948 on: July 02, 2020, 04:28:48 PM »

There is a toll gantry in Ardsley.
Is that one of the ones that's free for cars?

No. You're thinking of Spring Valley (located between exits 14A and 14B) which is no toll for regular automobiles and is northbound only. Ardsley is between exits 6A and 7 and is in both directions.
And it's technically named the Yonkers toll.
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lstone19

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Re: New York State Thruway
« Reply #1949 on: July 02, 2020, 04:58:35 PM »

There is a toll gantry in Ardsley.
Is that one of the ones that's free for cars?

No. You're thinking of Spring Valley (located between exits 14A and 14B) which is no toll for regular automobiles and is northbound only. Ardsley is between exits 6A and 7 and is in both directions.
And it's technically named the Yonkers toll.

I knew Ardsley was bugging me but yes, Yonkers toll but Ardsley service area.
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