Toll Roads vs. Free Roads Poll and Discussion

[cpzilliacus]

I agree that the NCDOT has a ton of work to do on I-95. The Fayetteville Bypass is probably the best stretch of it actually.

All in agreement.  I-95 around Wilson is not bad, though the Fayetteville Bypass section is better.

And I just saw the post about Smithfield in Tar Heel, I am Facebook friends with a high school classmate who worked there. She posted about getting food stamps so I'm assuming that the pay is abysmal. I have a friend who worked for a chicken slaughtering outfit in North Carolina and made minimum wage. The poverty rate in eastern NC is unreal.

Paying wages so low as to qualify people for public assistance is really bad public policy, and probably does not increase the number of people riding public transportation either (there's not much transit service in eastern North Carolina anyway).

[The Nature Boy]

I agree that the NCDOT has a ton of work to do on I-95. The Fayetteville Bypass is probably the best stretch of it actually.

All in agreement.  I-95 around Wilson is not bad, though the Fayetteville Bypass section is better.

And I just saw the post about Smithfield in Tar Heel, I am Facebook friends with a high school classmate who worked there. She posted about getting food stamps so I'm assuming that the pay is abysmal. I have a friend who worked for a chicken slaughtering outfit in North Carolina and made minimum wage. The poverty rate in eastern NC is unreal.

Paying wages so low as to qualify people for public assistance is really bad public policy, and probably does not increase the number of people riding public transportation either (there's not much transit service in eastern North Carolina anyway).

I definitely agree and it's one of the many reasons that I will not raise a family or live in eastern NC in the long term. Eastern NC is a good 20-25 years behind the rest of the state (much less the country) and it shows in a lot of ways. But I-95 was routed through it so outsiders have to deal with decades of bad policy when they travel on the roads.

[cpzilliacus]

I definitely agree and it's one of the many reasons that I will not raise a family or live in eastern NC in the long term. Eastern NC is a good 20-25 years behind the rest of the state (much less the country) and it shows in a lot of ways. But I-95 was routed through it so outsiders have to deal with decades of bad policy when they travel on the roads.

I have heard anecdotally that eastern North Carolina is where at least some retired people from Virginia, Maryland and D.C. (and perhaps points north) head for the (usually) milder climate and the lower cost of living.  After selling a home in large areas of one of those states for a lot of money, they can afford something nice at North Carolina prices and especially eastern North Carolina prices.

[Pete from Boston]

When I had a more fuel-efficient vehicle, I used to shunpike the Causeway, down near New Orleans.

Now, for those who aren't familiar with the area, while the Causeway is a straight shot from the middle of the Northshore to Metairie, which is practically right next door to the city. Using I-12 and I-10 from a similar point adds about 25 miles or so to the trip, depending on where you need to go in the city. Taking I-12 to I-55 is even longer. Toll's only $3 for a 24 mile bridge, which is a bargain compared to places like NYC or most other places with toll roads or bridges.

So, going 25-30 miles out of the way to shunpike a $3 toll. Yeah. If I'd shunpike that, then I'd definitely shunpike the Kansas Turnpike or a potentially-tolled I-70 in MO. I've probably already spent my entire fuel budget for the month putting gas in the tank, and the Explorer I drive now is thirsty. I don't have the extra money to pay tolls. Simple as that.

30 miles eats up at least $3 of gas for most, and your time is gone for good. 

Often the equation is complicated, but what you laid out does not seem to be.

[codyg1985]

Re: Toll versus free: It depends. I usually suck it up and pay the toll, but if there is a route that I haven't been on before that would be interesting to drive, I would take the alternative if it doesn't take to much time.

RE: I-95 in NC: Why couldn't people who register their transponder with a local address (maybe someone that lives in one of the counties that I-95 passes through) not be able to use the road for free, since most of the traffic is out of state?

[The Nature Boy]

Re: Toll versus free: It depends. I usually suck it up and pay the toll, but if there is a route that I haven't been on before that would be interesting to drive, I would take the alternative if it doesn't take to much time.

RE: I-95 in NC: Why couldn't people who register their transponder with a local address (maybe someone that lives in one of the counties that I-95 passes through) not be able to use the road for free, since most of the traffic is out of state?

That would be my suggestion. If you live in a county (or an adjacent county) that I-95 runs through and you register your transponder with the corresponding address, you get free usage of the road.

[kkt]

How would that be equitable?  Are my groceries free if I live within two blocks of the grocery store?

[roadman]

How would that be equitable?  Are my groceries free if I live within two blocks of the grocery store?

One word - politics.  MassDOT (and Massport and Mass. Turnpike Authority before them) have given in to similar local extortion demands and offer "resident rate" EZ-Pass transponders so people in Chelsea and East Boston can use the Tobin Bridge and Boston Harbor tunnels for next to nothing.  Of course, if those same people decide to use public transportation instead to cross the harbor, they have to pay the full transit fare.

[The Nature Boy]

Local politicians have also basically said "we're not having a toll road because it would put an undue burden on the impoverished people who live along I-95." Instead of it being an all or nothing proposition, you give in a bit so you can get the tolls so you can afford to modernize the road.

[MikeTheActuary]

How would that be equitable?  Are my groceries free if I live within two blocks of the grocery store?

No, but if you were told that you absolutely had to shop at that grocery store, with no other viable options, you might want some kind of protection from the potential for that store to abuse its monopoly over you.

Or you could move.  But politicians and bureaucrats are loathe to tell the masses "if you don't like it, you can move".

[The Nature Boy]

And I-95 runs through the parts of NC where there are already other indicators that the citizens WOULD in fact be better off moving.

But yeah, the grocery analogy also falls flat because there is never a "free" grocery store option that I could utilize. If I-95 is tolled through that region, the locals will just use US 301 and any other road that parallels I-95 along its route. There is no analogous situation when it comes to buying grocery.

[US 41]

I don't think roads that are already free should be converted into toll roads. If they want to build new interstates and toll those, whatever. But leave the free interstates alone.

Actually I have a proposal. The Federal Government should take care of Interstates and US highways, while the state departments take care of state highways. Makes sense to me.

[Laura]

If she can go a full month on a tank, I'm guessing that she's not living rather far away from where she works (or has some other means of getting there).

Actually, I don't work. Disability only covers so much, especially since the prices of things are still sky-high aside from gas (at the moment.) Most of my commuting lately is to grocery stores to buy food or to doctors, thankfully, not involving a tolled route in any shape or form yet. Sometimes, though, I have to travel a little bit beyond that. Taking a toll road to get there would screw me badly.

Edit: Quoted wrong post

Yep. What pretty much everyone is missing is that it's MUCH easier to budget for the one tank of gas on the first of the month than it is to budget for an approximate number of toll crossings.

Also, time does not always equal money. Taking the long way has different benefits. It gives you more time to enjoy the scenery, think, and listen to media (music, news, audiobooks, podcasts, etc.).

[The Nature Boy]

I don't think roads that are already free should be converted into toll roads. If they want to build new interstates and toll those, whatever. But leave the free interstates alone.

Actually I have a proposal. The Federal Government should take care of Interstates and US highways, while the state departments take care of state highways. Makes sense to me.

That would require Congress to do something to keep the Highway Trust Fund solvent........

lol at that happening

[froggie]

That would require Congress to do something to keep the Highway Trust Fund solvent........

If Congress eliminated the Surface Transportation Program (basically Federal-aid for most non-Interstates), the fund would probably remain solvent.

[The Nature Boy]

I wonder what the domino effect of just providing federal funding for interstate maintenance would be. I could see a state saying, "fine, we'll lower our drinking age" since federal highway funds are now a lot less important. Since interstate highways are primarily an instrument of interstate commerce, the feds have more of a stake in their upkeep. This is especially true in rural areas like eastern NC where the traffic IS primarily out of state.

[froggie]

I doubt it.  Every state has a lot of mileage of Interstate that is mostly local in nature, especially in their urban areas.  They won't jeopardize that unless they REALLY want to go it completely on their own....and unless Congress changes things, FHWA would still have oversight on the Interstates.

[Buck87]

Re: Toll versus free: It depends. I usually suck it up and pay the toll, but if there is a route that I haven't been on before that would be interesting to drive, I would take the alternative if it doesn't take to much time.

That's pretty much where I am when it comes to out of state trips.

Though I did vote for the "cheap" option in the poll since the only toll road that's an option to me on a regular basis is the Ohio Turnpike and I avoid it as much as possible. Though it does help that I have decent alternatives. If I'm going somewhere in the Cleveland metro I can either take OH 2/I-90 or US 20/OH 10/I-480, and if I'm going to Toledo I can take US 20 to either OH 420/I-280 or I-75. I pretty much only use the turnpike if I'm running late, am using it to head out of state, or just want a change of pace. 

[PHLBOS]

As much as I agreed with the decision by USDOT and the Federal Highway Administration to (twice) reject Pennsylvania's proposal to toll all of I-80 across that state, the proposal did have one good idea - allowing four-wheel traffic with an E-ZPass transponder to pass through one of the transponder gantries without being charged a toll, effectively allowing (relatively) short trips to be made without paying any toll charges.

Recent efforts to toll I-80 in PA were rejected three times.

On December 12, 2007, the FHWA rejected the plan, and returned Pennsylvania's application for tolling I-80 with questions asking why the state should place tolls on the highway.

On September 11, 2008, the Federal Highway Administration rejected Pennsylvania's application to toll Interstate 80 for the second time.

On April 6, 2010, the Federal Highway Administration rejected this application for the third time.

Source

Back to the topic at hand:

As others have mentioned, I'm not going to vote in this poll either because such is not a one-size-fits-all.

In general, if the toll road is the most direct, fastest (posted speed limit as well as traffic flow) and there's no practical non-tolled freeway alternative; then I will use it.

Since most of my driving experiences are in the northeast, the following is a list of shunpike routes I've either done or will continue to do:

1.  I-95 toll plaza in Newark, DE: since the extortion toll of $4 each way w/no EZ-Pass discount is only due to the fact that the highway's a toll facility (as opposed to a bridge or tunnel); exiting off just beforehand and getting back on afterwards makes perfect sense.  The distance between Exits 1A-B in DE and MD Exits 109A-B is close enough that a couple extra minutes using DE 896/DE 2/MD 279 won't be a deal-breaker.

2.  I-95/NJ Turnpike north of Exit 11/GSP as well as most Hudson River Crossings: for my many trips to/from New England from/to the Delaware Valley, this one's almost automatic.  Yes, I'm still paying a toll for the GSP and the Tappan Zee Bridge (one-way) & drivng longer in miles; but such is significantly cheaper (& usually less congested) than staying on the NJ Turnpike all the way to its northern end and taking the GW.

3.  When coming from the north, I almost always cross back into PA via the NJ-PA Turnpike (Future I-95) bridge and use US 13/PA 413 to pick I-95.  The overall NJ & PA Turnpike toll still comes out cheaper than exiting off the NJ Turnpike sooner (usually at Exit 7A vs. Exit 6) but paying the $5 Walt Whitman Bridge toll to Philly.

4.  When heading to Carlise for the various car shows; I have exited off the PA Turnpike (I-76) at Exit 247 (Harrisburg-East) and used I-283/83/81/PA 581/US 11 vs. staying on I-76 to Exit 226 (Carlise) & US 11 so I can save a bit on tolls (roughly $3 r/t w/EZ-Pass).  Although, now that the Turnpike has a 70-mph speed limit west of Morgantown (Exit 298/I-176); I might be more willing to use the Turnpike again.

5.  To/from the North Shore (MA) from/to the Mass Pike (I-90): Much to the chagrin of my mother (she doesn't like using highways even when she's not the one driving), I almost always use MA 128/I-95 vs. going through Boston via MA 1A to I-90.  Even though it's longer in overall miles; it's usually quicker and much cheaper in terms of Turnpike tolls and Boston Harbor crossings.

I've stated such in other threads and I'll state it here; had the I-95/Somerset Freeway and I-695 in NJ been built as originally planned, the only toll facilities I would be using for my New England trips would be the Tappan Zee Bridge and the Mass Pike (#s 2 & 3 cover such).

[US 41]

Oh yes I used the calculator and got $12 too, so I'm thinking it's glitched and was hoping someone would know.

Why do you think it's glitched? Expecting a higher toll? The whole 300+ mile road is only $25 (which is about half the toll per mile of Laredo-Mazatlan).

Really? I expected it to be like $95-110. Never used an American toll so I had no idea of the prices.

There is no way it is even close to being that expensive. I think to drive from Chicago to Philadelphia it is only about $35 total in tolls.

It's a bit more than that, but that's due to the very high tolls on the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

I calculated it this morning and to drive from Philadelphia to Chicago it would cost $72.65 if you were paying in cash the whole time. And yes, the Pennsylvania Turnpike is expensive! It costs $40.65 to drive on I-76 across the state. (It costs $46.10 to drive the whole thing from the Delaware River to Ohio.) It's $4.50 to drive the Chicago Skyway and $10 to drive across the whole state of Indiana. To drive across Ohio it is $17.50.

This is exactly why I take the free roads. If I had to drive from Philly to Chicago and back to Philly it would cost a little over $145 if I stuck straight to the toll roads. $145 is a lot of money that I could use elsewhere.

I would honestly be the guy that would take US 30 the whole trip. According to Google Maps it would only take 3 - 3.5 hours longer that way (so 7 total). I think I might actually drive US 30 from Chicago to Philadelphia one day for a shunpike road trip.

[cpzilliacus]

As much as I agreed with the decision by USDOT and the Federal Highway Administration to (twice) reject Pennsylvania's proposal to toll all of I-80 across that state, the proposal did have one good idea - allowing four-wheel traffic with an E-ZPass transponder to pass through one of the transponder gantries without being charged a toll, effectively allowing (relatively) short trips to be made without paying any toll charges.

Recent efforts to toll I-80 in PA were rejected three times.

I am aware of two rejections - once by the George W. Bush USDOT, then by the Barrack Obama USDOT.

But the USDOT did not reject tolling of I-80 because of the plan to allow some (shorter) trips to be toll-free. 

The plan was rejected since Pennsylvania was not going to use most of the collected revenue for any improvements that might have been of benefit to I-80 drivers.  Most of the revenue was to be shipped to Philadelphia to pay SEPTA hourly employees and to Pittsburgh to pay Port Authority of Allegheny County hourly transit workers - and benefits, and some smaller part to other Pennsylvania transit operators.

[PHLBOS]

I am aware of two rejections - once by the George W. Bush USDOT, then by the Barrack Obama USDOT.

It was rejected by the FHWA twice during the Bush 43 years; once on Dec. 12, 2007 and again on Sept. 11, 2008 as listed in my earlier post.  I remember the three FHWA rejections (including the one on April 6, 2010 under Obama) very well mainly because I've lived in the Keystone State for nearly 25 years and remember all this going through the various headlines and the news reports.   

But the USDOT did not reject tolling of I-80 because of the plan to allow some (shorter) trips to be toll-free.

Never stated nor insinuated that it did. 

The plan was rejected since Pennsylvania was not going to use most of the collected revenue for any improvements that might have been of benefit to I-80 drivers.  Most of the revenue was to be shipped to Philadelphia to pay SEPTA hourly employees and to Pittsburgh to pay Port Authority of Allegheny County hourly transit workers - and benefits, and some smaller part to other Pennsylvania transit operators.

Agreed, it was a classic case of "Robbing Peter to Pay Paul".

[cpzilliacus]

I am aware of two rejections - once by the George W. Bush USDOT, then by the Barrack Obama USDOT.

It was rejected by the FHWA twice during the Bush 43 years; once on Dec. 12, 2007 and again on Sept. 11, 2008 as listed in my earlier post.  I remember the three FHWA rejections (including the one on April 6, 2010 under Obama) very well mainly because I've lived in the Keystone State for nearly 25 years and remember all this going through the various headlines and the news reports.

Did not recall the second W. Bush Administration rejection.  Aside regarding Obama - the transit union that represents many SETPA hourly workers urged  its members to vote for him because they assumed his administration would approve the proposed tolling of I-80.

But the USDOT did not reject tolling of I-80 because of the plan to allow some (shorter) trips to be toll-free.

Never stated nor insinuated that it did.

Agreed.  I think someone else upthread did. 

The plan was rejected since Pennsylvania was not going to use most of the collected revenue for any improvements that might have been of benefit to I-80 drivers.  Most of the revenue was to be shipped to Philadelphia to pay SEPTA hourly employees and to Pittsburgh to pay Port Authority of Allegheny County hourly transit workers - and benefits, and some smaller part to other Pennsylvania transit operators.

Agreed, it was a classic case of "Robbing Peter to Pay Paul".

Agreed too.

Or actually robbing I-80 drivers to fund generous wage and benefit packages in cities far from any part of I-80?

[PHLBOS]

Did not recall the second W. Bush Administration rejection.

With all due respect, while you may not have necessarily recall the second time (which took place roughly 2 months prior to the 2008 elections); it doesn't mean that such didn't happen.  Again, I posted the dates and a source for the three rejections in my earlier post.

Another source (if one doesn't like Wiki) referring to the Sept. 2008 rejection circa June 2009.

A previously unpublished Memorandum (included in the above-link) written by the Federal Highway Administration's (FHWA) chief counsel at the time, Marcus J Lemon, explains rather clearly the thinking behind the US Government rejection last September of the second Pennsylvania application to toll I-80.

Aside regarding Obama - the transit union that represents many SEPTA hourly workers urged  its members to vote for him because they assumed his administration would approve the proposed tolling of I-80.

I'm sure then-Gov. Rendell was thinking at the time, if Obama's elected President; he would try for it again.  What he didn't expect was Ray LaHood remaining as Secretary of Transportation after the transition from Bush 43 to Obama.

[SidS1045]

One word - politics.  MassDOT (and Massport and Mass. Turnpike Authority before them) have given in to similar local extortion demands and offer "resident rate" EZ-Pass transponders so people in Chelsea and East Boston can use the Tobin Bridge and Boston Harbor tunnels for next to nothing.  Of course, if those same people decide to use public transportation instead to cross the harbor, they have to pay the full transit fare.

...which begs the question:  How were the toll points on the AET design for the MassPike determined?  They appear to be set up so that the Pike could be used in certain areas for toll-free trips.